Gogumagog

[kahaneloyalist]

Really good video in Hebrew with English subtitles on the war of Gogumagog

[Maccabi]

yeah I like that it is very well done.  do you think this is an accurate picture of what will happen?

[Sarah]

I never knew Jews believed in this concept. There is a similar story in islam as well, that near the time of the ending of the world. Two tribes, Ya'juj and Ma'juj- Gog and Magog, will appear from somewhere in china(some scholars believe it is related with the great wall of china and that they will break some barrier). These tribes will cause havoc on earth and there will be a war, yes. There is also a story of the dajaal which will come upon earth too. Does Judaism or the torah mention this story which is basically about an evil man on earth in the near future?

Please, if you don't mind, can you explain the torah version of the ending of the world and its signs.........

[MassuhDGoodName]

Sarah exclaims:  "...I never knew Jews believed in this concept..."

The concept is 100% Jewish, Sarah.

It is OUR concept; originating with us.

All others have it on loan (and it would appear that some of their borrowings are no longer in the original condition which they were when first borrowed).

The very concept of "End Times" & Moshiach are totally Jewish.

In The New Testament, when Jesus is questioned by his disciples as to the events Judaism foretells pertaining to the end times, Jesus' answer is a verbatim reiteration of the Torah prophecies...adding nothing new.

Christianity today, includes along with original Jewish concepts,the recorded visions of the Apostle John known as Revelations.
 
As for Islam, Mohammed borrowed the prophecies and history of the Jews, and so terribly misinterpreted and mangled them, that they are essentially unrecognizable.

Regardless of this fact, the concepts of Judgement Day, End Times, War of Gog & Magog, & Moshiach, found in Qu'ran are borrowings from the Jews.

[Sarah]

You would then never believe that God then wrote the quran and sent it down.....?  of course not i hear you saying.

What is the main difference between Judaism and Islam, i mean regarding these concepts. If they are so closely related-not the religionin general just the odd concepts- then why don't we just believe in Judaism since it was there first.

Thinking about it, i don't know a thing about Judaism. Do you believe that the new testament was altered by some, well this is what we are taught at school. Thats why we shouldn't believe in it, they say.

[Lisa]

Sarah,

I have never read the Koran, but I am of Iranian ancestry, so I figure I'll thrown my two cents in. 

Both Judaism and Islam stress the oneness of G-d, and both prohibit making graven images.  So you would never ever see in Synagogue, pictures of Moses or King David.  But with Judaism, you're not prohibited from actually looking at a graven image that you happen to see someplace.  So for example, if someone were to publish derogatory cartoons about Moses, or Abraham, Jews would certainly be offended.  But in the case of the Danish cartoons, many Muslims objected to the fact that they were forced to SEE the Mohammed cartoons, as they were all over the place. 

Also, both Judaism and Islam forbid the eating of pork.  Judaism also considers shellfish unclean (as they are scavengers), as well as animals that are predators.  I once read someplace that the reason cows are ok is because the animals have several stomachs.  So what they eat is digested in one stomach, then another.  Plus which cows mainly eat grass.  Then again, the other commenters who are more observant can explain this better than I can. 

Then there's the issue of slaughter.  Kosher slaughter involves strategically slitting the animal's throat, so that it feels a minimal amount of pain.  A friend once told me that the Muslim slaughter involves cutting the animal's throat all the way across.  But once the animal is slaughtered, a kosher slaughterer will check all its internal organs to make sure everything looks ok.  If anything looks off, the animal is not fit to eat.  Also Jewish law prohibits killing an animal in front of its mother, or on the same day as you would slaughter its mother and vice versa.  You are also not allowed to try and eat parts of the animal while it's still alive (that's one of the Noahide laws as well).  Also, if the animal you are trying to slaughter manages to escape, under Jewish law, you are NOT allowed to pursue it. 

Now I don't know about Islam, but Jews don't mix milk and dairy products.  That comes from the part of the Bible that says "do not seethe a calf in its mother's milk. 

Finally, Judaism is not a missionary (for lack of a better word) religion.  Jews believe that non-Jews can also go to heaven, as long as they observe the seven Noahide laws (which, I believe involve no homosexual relations, no killing, no idol worship, no eating the flesh of an animal that's still alive, etc.)  But you can ask Jimmy Sullivan or Fjack for more details.

Lisa   

[Sarah]

Thanks for that Lisa

The only rule is that you must slaughter it in the name of God (say bismillah) before you kosh it. Rabbis also have to certify the food don't they?

"Judaism doesn't prohibit pictures. Only graven images"
What do you mean by graven images Yacov.

[Lisa]

That's right Sarah.  Rabbis have to certify that the mean is kosher.  So certain packaged foods have either an OU label on them or a K label. The first label means a food is kosher by Orthodox Jewish standards.  The OU stands for Orthodox Union.  The K means it is kosher by Conservative Jewish standards.  Other times, there is an OU P label, and that means a food is kosher for Passover (that's needed because there are certain kosher foods that Jews are not even allowed to eat on Passover).

[Sarah]

OK is Orthodox standards. K means it could be by any rabbi. It stands for kosher as opposed to being a symbol. Pepsi says K on it even though Pepsi is under Orthodox supervision.

All the little muslim kids think that pepsi stands for:

Pay Every Penny Save Israel.

"Judaism doesn't prohibit pictures. Only graven images"
What do you mean by graven images Yacov.

A carved image such as a statue.

Israeli coins don't have the image of a person on them. There are special editions where there is an indirect image of someone on them, but not like you see in England with The Queen.

That is good, it prevents idolatory

[Fruit of thy loins]

I knew a self-effacing Arab Muslim at university.  He kept company with the whites and didn't mind others knocking his religion.  The situation reverses when one is among a plurality of Arabs.  Therefore it is insane to permit Muslim immigration because even the Muslim minority have a higher standard of living when they are surrounded by whites instead of Arabs. 

[Sarah]

Pepsi used to boycott Israel and only sell to The Arab Muslim Nazis. After The Madrid "Peace Conference", Pepsi was allowed into Israel. That and the introduction of American fast food chains into Israel are the only positive developments in the "peace" shtick nonsense. As a kid, I always like Pepsi better than Coca-Cola so I still do and now I can buy it when I go to Israel. And before I ate only kosherly slaughtered meat, I would go to Burger King and Kentucky Fried Chicken. If they didn't have kosher branches of those chains in Israel, I wouldn't be able to go to them but now I go to them in Israel. Chaim disagrees with me on this because he thinks it's not healthy.

The smell of greasy chicken churns my stomach. Its not really a good thing if you think about it, america is suffering in a way due to its increasing child obesity. Fast food companies mean peace?
Pepsi and coca-cola taste the same to me.
A few years ago someone once told me that jewish cuisine is delicious. I was then given a bowl of watery soup with doughballs in it. I had to hide the balls up my sleeve.

[Sarah]

Do you like them? Can you cook at all?
Why does Chaim have such strong views on eating healthly?

[Maccabi]

kosher pastrami is heavenly when cooked in the right herbs.

[MassuhDGoodName]

Sarah the epicurean:  "...A few years ago someone once told me that jewish cuisine is delicious. I was then given a bowl of watery soup with doughballs in it. I had to hide the balls up my sleeve...."

Well, no wonder!   

Didn't your host "explain" how that stuff works?   

It's called the "Jewish watery soup routine".   

You're supposed to fish out the doughballs, and with one in each hand, reach underneath the tablecloth and forcefully roll them as hard as you can; so that they "streak" across the dining room bouncing all over the place.   

Then, you bolt straight up out of your chair, and with a look of horrific shock, point in the direction of the two "projectiles", screaming:

"EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEK!  MICE!!!  OH MY G-D!  OH MY G-D!!!!!!"   

You then, with the back of your knees, push your chair backwards to that it collapses on to the floor, and, screaming hysterically, make a mad dash for the host's front door; in one fell motion, yanking the door open with such force that it slams and bangs into the wall, as you hastily depart the premises.   

Sorry to hear your first matzoh ball soup was poorly made!

My Mom's is so unbelievably good that I could literally live off of it, and it only; never in want of anything else!

[Sarah]

MassuhDGoodName haha i might try that one day
Matzoh ball soup...hmmm

Tadaaa!!

Well its good that you can cook yacov. Its a skill......
I was also wondering how about JTF has a "jewish" or "hebrew" word of the day. It would probably help a lot of people and many forums have this.

[judeanoncapta]

I never knew Jews believed in this concept. There is a similar story in islam as well, that near the time of the ending of the world. Two tribes, Ya'juj and Ma'juj- Gog and Magog, will appear from somewhere in china(some scholars believe it is related with the great wall of china and that they will break some barrier). These tribes will cause havoc on earth and there will be a war, yes. There is also a story of the dajaal which will come upon earth too. Does Judaism or the torah mention this story which is basically about an evil man on earth in the near future?

Please, if you don't mind, can you explain the torah version of the ending of the world and its signs.........

I realize that you wrote this three and a half months ago.

The irony is too much to bear.

The actual Gog and Magog are found only in the prophecy of Ezekiel in chapter 38 and 39.

The irony that Muhammad heard some stories from Jews or Christians about these two chapters and thought that gogand magog are Chinese is too funny.

While the actual identity of magog is in doubt and people have their theories ranging from Turkey to Russia to America.  There is no questions about which counties will join up with GogandMagog.

Let's let Ezekiel name them for you:

Ezekiel Chapter 38
1 And the word of the LORD came unto me, saying: 2 'Son of man, set thy face toward Gog, of the land of Magog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal, and prophesy against him, 3 and say: Thus saith the Lord GOD: Behold, I am against thee, O Gog, chief prince of Meshech and Tubal; 4 and I will turn thee about, and put hooks into thy jaws, and I will bring thee forth, and all thine army, horses and horsemen, all of them clothed most gorgeously, a great company with buckler and shield, all of them handling swords: 5 Persia, Cush, and Put with them, all of them with shield and helmet;

Did you hear that last line?

These three nations, Persia, Cush and Put.

Persia is modern day Iran. An Islamic Country.

Cush is a large area  that would encompass much of Ethiopia, Sudan and Somalia.  All three of them are Islamic countries.

Put is Modern day Libya. Another Islamic country.

Don't you see the irony?

Muhammad hears these stories about the evil Gog, Magog and their allies.

He plagiarizes the idea from Ezekiel and through his religion sets up the situation neccessary to bring it about. All the while condemning Juj and Majuj who are destined to lead a group of Islamic countries against Israel in the End of Days. Condemning his own followers and his own religion in the process. All due to the fact that there wouldn't be a Bible in the Arabic language for another two hundred years. If there had been one at the time in Arabic, Muhammad would have plagiarized the stories correctly and we wouldn't have to hear Muslims tell us we "corrupted" the Torah and that's why Muhammad's versions are different. A claim contradicted by the Dead Sea Scrolls for anyone with any knowledge of these matters.

Anyway, that's my two cents.

[Lubab]

Some of you might be interested to know that the Baal Shem Tov said that due to all of the suffering the Jews have gone through throughout the ages the war of Gog and Magog doesn't need to be fulfilled in the physical sense. We have had enough suffering. He said something along those lines.

[ftf]

If Gogumagog did not occur it would be mean that a prophecy has not been fulfilled, it has to happen. WHat I think was the best interpretation of it that I have ever read was on a website that for some reason no longer exists, but it came to a rather well backed conclusion that magog = russia and gog = russians. The fact that russia is aiding iran's nuclear program seams pretty telling to me...

[judeanoncapta]

If Gogumagog did not occur it would be mean that a prophecy has not been fulfilled, it has to happen.

YEAH, BUT THERE ARE MANY PEOPLE WHO BELEIVE THAT WORLD WAR 2 WAS GOGANDMAGOG.

Hey, Germany isn't technically Meshech and Tuval.

But neither is Russia and you seem to think they might be Gogand Magog.

WHat I think was the best interpretation of it that I have ever read was on a website that for some reason no longer exists, but it came to a rather well backed conclusion that magog = russia and gog = russians. The fact that russia is aiding iran's nuclear program seams pretty telling to me...

Well, if you wish to interpret literally.

Meshekh, Tuval and Magog are all parts of Modern-day Turkey.

So who knows.

I guess we'll find out when it happens.

[ftf]

If Gogumagog did not occur it would be mean that a prophecy has not been fulfilled, it has to happen.

YEAH, BUT THERE ARE MANY PEOPLE WHO BELEIVE THAT WORLD WAR 2 WAS GOGANDMAGOG.

Hey, Germany isn't technically Meshech and Tuval.

But neither is Russia and you seem to think they might be Gogand Magog.

WHat I think was the best interpretation of it that I have ever read was on a website that for some reason no longer exists, but it came to a rather well backed conclusion that magog = russia and gog = russians. The fact that russia is aiding iran's nuclear program seams pretty telling to me...

Well, if you wish to interpret literally.

Meshekh, Tuval and Magog are all parts of Modern-day Turkey.

So who knows.

I guess we'll find out when it happens.

I've never heard anyone say that magog is part of turkey.

[kahaneloyalist]

FTF, only good Navua must take place, bad Navua can be averted if there is teshuva

[ftf]

FTF, only good Navua must take place, bad Navua can be averted if there is teshuva

So if a prophet says something bad will happen, it's possible to avoid it? I didn't see anything in the book of Ezekiel to say that gogumagog may or may not happen depending on things, it seemed pretty specific, it will happen. Or is Ezekiel a liar?

[Sarah]

Wow, honestly speaking i didn't really relate gog and magog to realistic human wars. I was kind of speculating it to be almost demonic like.