Please sticky until Chaim sees: My response to the poll policy

[q_q_]

See what I mean. The Gedolim have their fights, and they say things in their own way. The Great Rav Nachman from Breslev says that the simple Jews should stay away from the arguments between the Gedolim (and those who defile the brit- Brit Tefillin, Shabbat even more soo), and they would not be able to understand.  

if it were the case, that you put rabbis on that high level, that we cannot understand their arguments.

Then that is a very good mechanism for allowing them to maintain their control, and push a cult like mentality.

I did read a book of chassidic stories that really imbued that mentality..  Of Gedolim being rude to each other for some reason relevant to the celestian spheres..  As soon as one of them stopped being rude to the other, the other died. That was a book of chassidic stories..   As they say "If you believe them all, of you believe nonem then you're are fool"   But the point of these kind of stories is clear.. Don't question the gedolim, or Rebbe, they or he is on a higher level of thinking and spirituality.

 I have seen something rather disturbing.. where a rabbi behaved in a way he shouldn't have towards a man in the congregation, not in a way that would make the newspaper, but just going way over the line.. And I looked around and saw the mentality of the people watching, staring daggers at the man as if to say subliminally  "Do what the good rabbi says".  That was a particularly weird synagogue..  I've never seen anything like that since.  A normal shul/synagogue is one where some in the community don't like the rabbi, and some do.  If everybody loves him, then it's suspicious..

I don't want to discuss the situation, suffice it to say, I have mentioned it to many people, and they agree it was weird, spooky, and really indefensible, and that I was right in my analysis..  

That was a situation of a rabbi acts like a Rebbe, really abusing his power.      Of course, Rebbes acting like Rebbes isn't as bad! But it's still problematic. There is no basis for such authority in the talmud. And these rabbis are not greater than talmudic rabbis.

  Just because someone said things agains't Israel does not mean anything. I would probably beat that almost all Rabbis (that count) said things agains't Israel, but one has to know why they said it and for what purpose. For example those who were very religious had to hear from Rabbis agains't the secular entity, in order to be warned agaisn't getting too close to "their brethren", even though at the same time it is a Mitzva to get Jews religious and help them out, it is also bad a lot of times for the community to get too close to other communities and get its children to adapt the alien values of others. If this was not done, then their wouldn't be a Jewish nation today. Because the Jews would embrace everyone and every idea, (even though it has happened to a large degree).

This is really rabbis I don't like, playing psychiatrist.. Saying whatever they want just to emphasise something.

Youth rabbis will tell kids "If you do this, you get this carrott" And it works.. because most kids are dumb or immature.

And in mad cases, sometimes they threaten.. With
I have only heard of it once, though I am not in charedi circles

One rabbi I heard of, said something along the lines of  "If you miss [he mentioned a mitzva here] then you're not jewish".
Complete nonsense of course, but it scared his students so much, that they all do the mitzva without fail.. Whereas others miss it often.

I personally, am not in favour of this dishonest manpiulative nonsense.  

This making people do more mitzvot or be more religious by nook or crook..  

There was actually an article in the jewish tribune, either this year or last year, that said it is ok to lie to people in kiruv(outreach!!).  I don't know about the charedim, but fortunately, the big outreach organisations in britain (ohr, aish) don't do that, they are very intellectually honest, and  even have their arguments up and in some cases have published responses from people that believe they are wrong.

But these mentalities do exist.. And it's dangerous.

I can well believe that the atmar rebbe hid information from his followesr that could have saved them.. Infact,,

here is a link, excuse the link's name
http://failedmessiah.typepad.com/failed_messiahcom/2008/05/the-satmar-rebb.html
it has a short article about the satmar rebbe and this incident, and mentions a book called "Kasztner's Train" by Anna porter.  I will have to read these things, perfidy, and the rest.. But I am aware of it.. I was less aware of the story regarding the satmar

[DownwithIslam]

Tzvi is defending a yoel teitelbaum who in exchange for saving his own tuchis on the kastner train, convinced his followers to go to aushwitz. This is what tzvi is defending. Of course this same rabbi hated israel, blamed israel for all the bloodshed in the middle east, in 1961 blamed israel for the holocaust. It seems tzvi will defend every informer under the sun.

[DownwithIslam]

Tzvi,
    Are you defending the Satmar? (maybe just as a forgiving gesture) Maybe you feel they are brothers that can be rehabilitated....... You're certainly not defending their actions?

Italianzionist, I know its hard to believe but he is indeed defending them and called everyone who criticised them idiots. I know this is hard for a super righteous gentile like yourself to understand but as you see here, some jews act in very strange ways. Tzvi seems to share many of the same opinions as woody allen and the hollywood kikes. What a shame.

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

Tzvi,
    Are you defending the Satmar? (maybe just as a forgiving gesture) Maybe you feel they are brothers that can be rehabilitated....... You're certainly not defending their actions?

 I am not defending the actions of the NK types, who side with arabs, but not all Satmer are evil. And I do believe that the anti-zionist position is a valid position, at a point I didn't (and I thought it was only Askenazi position), but even the Ben Ish Chai had that position, (I just read recently that he was for the land of Israel, but said not to push the Geula process by fighting the arabs, etc.- but I have my own opinion of that and how it doesn't really mean that (its somewhat deep and hard to explain in a few sentences).
 But just because they have a position doesn't mean bashing them and referring allways negativly towards them is valid. They do have Talmidei Hachamim who should be respected, and their opinions are brought in lectures and other things (like books, even with those who disagree with them).

[Archie]

Tzvi,
    Are you defending the Satmar? (maybe just as a forgiving gesture) Maybe you feel they are brothers that can be rehabilitated....... You're certainly not defending their actions?

And I do believe that the anti-zionist position is a valid position

Haha. Wow! Unbelievable.   

What are you doing here on this forum pal?
 

[DownwithIslam]

Tzvi,
    Are you defending the Satmar? (maybe just as a forgiving gesture) Maybe you feel they are brothers that can be rehabilitated....... You're certainly not defending their actions?

 I am not defending the actions of the NK types, who side with arabs, but not all Satmer are evil. And I do believe that the anti-zionist position is a valid position, at a point I didn't (and I thought it was only Askenazi position), but even the Ben Ish Chai had that position, (I just read recently that he was for the land of Israel, but said not to push the Geula process by fighting the arabs, etc.- but I have my own opinion of that and how it doesn't really mean that (its somewhat deep and hard to explain in a few sentences).
 But just because they have a position doesn't mean bashing them and referring allways negativly towards them is valid. They do have Talmidei Hachamim who should be respected, and their opinions are brought in lectures and other things (like books, even with those who disagree with them).

Italianzionist, disregard everything tzvi said. I already explained numerous times in this threaf about why it is proper to attack the satmar rabbi. Notice tzvi says that the anti zionist position is a valid position. I think that says it all. My work is done here and Tzvi is exposed.

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

Tzvi,
    Are you defending the Satmar? (maybe just as a forgiving gesture) Maybe you feel they are brothers that can be rehabilitated....... You're certainly not defending their actions?

And I do believe that the anti-zionist position is a valid position

Haha. Wow! Unbelievable.   

What are you doing here on this forum pal?
 

 I said it is a valid opinion, I didnt say I hold by it. Anyway if Chaim wants me to leave, I will.

[DownwithIslam]

Tzvi,
    Are you defending the Satmar? (maybe just as a forgiving gesture) Maybe you feel they are brothers that can be rehabilitated....... You're certainly not defending their actions?

And I do believe that the anti-zionist position is a valid position

Haha. Wow! Unbelievable.   

What are you doing here on this forum pal?
 

Wow, I was thinking the same thing. That explains why he is so arrogantly able to say the same thing over and over again when I have proven him wrong beyond a reasonable doubt. This guy is a wallbanger. He is totally exposed and now we know why he supports every bolshevik dictator disguised as a rabbi under the sun.

[DownwithIslam]

Tzvi,
    Are you defending the Satmar? (maybe just as a forgiving gesture) Maybe you feel they are brothers that can be rehabilitated....... You're certainly not defending their actions?

And I do believe that the anti-zionist position is a valid position

Haha. Wow! Unbelievable.   

What are you doing here on this forum pal?
 

 I said it is a valid opinion, I didnt say I hold by it. Anyway if Chaim wants me to leave, I will.

If you think that the anti zionist opinion is valid then you dont belong here. Are you saying that the opinion that the jewish people who have been persecuted for thousands of years dreaming of a return to their homeland, have no right to the six mile wide slither of land they currently have. You sound like sheik rahman.

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

Tzvi,
    Are you defending the Satmar? (maybe just as a forgiving gesture) Maybe you feel they are brothers that can be rehabilitated....... You're certainly not defending their actions?

And I do believe that the anti-zionist position is a valid position

Haha. Wow! Unbelievable.   

What are you doing here on this forum pal?
 

 I said it is a valid opinion, I didnt say I hold by it. Anyway if Chaim wants me to leave, I will.

If you think that the anti zionist opinion is valid then you dont belong here. Are you saying that the opinion that the jewish people who have been persecuted for thousands of years dreaming of a return to their homeland, have no right to the six mile wide slither of land they currently have. You sound like sheik rahman.

 And I said that? You should realy work with Haaretz and Meritz, and all the other drek in the israeli gov. and media. Or is it that you eat forbidden foods by the way you speak I would guess soo.
  I never said that Jews shouldn't have the land of Israel. All I said was that their are opinions that said that the Jews should not return in mass and conqure the land, and I do not hold by that.

[Archie]

Tzvi,
    Are you defending the Satmar? (maybe just as a forgiving gesture) Maybe you feel they are brothers that can be rehabilitated....... You're certainly not defending their actions?

And I do believe that the anti-zionist position is a valid position

Haha. Wow! Unbelievable.   

What are you doing here on this forum pal?
 

I said it is a valid opinion, I didnt say I hold by it. Anyway if Chaim wants me to leave, I will.

Well, make your point: Seriously, why is anti-Zionism a valid position??

Enlight us 

[DownwithIslam]

Tzvi,
    Are you defending the Satmar? (maybe just as a forgiving gesture) Maybe you feel they are brothers that can be rehabilitated....... You're certainly not defending their actions?

And I do believe that the anti-zionist position is a valid position

Haha. Wow! Unbelievable.   

What are you doing here on this forum pal?
 

I said it is a valid opinion, I didnt say I hold by it. Anyway if Chaim wants me to leave, I will.

Well, make your point: Seriously, why is anti-Zionism a valid position??

Enlight us 

I know, I am waiting to hear how in hell it could be valid.

[Rubystars]

Wow, the emotions are really thick here. Let me see if I can understand this, from someone who is just watching this whole thing from the outside. Tzvi sounds like what he's saying is that both positions are based on rabbinical interpretation of the Torah, but he's not personally anti-Zionist.

Is that what you meant Tzvi? That both are "valid" in the sense that they are both accepted interpretations, but that you agree with the Zionist one and therefore you do belong on this board?

I think it's the word "valid" that might be confusing here.

[takebackourtemple]

I haven't read through all of these posts, but I think this topic should have been dropped a while ago. I'm also locking this one. Let's move on to JTF agenda.