Please: I would like to know REAL thoughts on the Womens Lib movement.

[Dr. Dan]

i think the a good point about the female "liberation" is that a woman voiced that females have a choice to be what they want to be and that they don't have to be just one thing...

and that they aren't property.

When they start supporting all women I might understand your statement.
What if you choose to do just one thing?
What if you choose family over career?
Why are those women held in such disdain by the feminist?

Ok, it seems i need to make my point clarified because i sound like someone who is pro-feminist movement.  I am NOT pro-woman's "liberation".  If anything, I'm just as against it as most people on this forum.  It has done more harm than good.  All of the harm that it has done has been described by numerous posts on this subject.  However, there is one good that has come out of it.  Women are no longer looked as being beneath men.  Yes, we are comparing apples and oranges...but both are still fruit equally healthy.  Women are something remarkable and very special people.  Face it, men could never be able to live without them.  If there is anything the feminist movement has indicated to me is exactly this thought.  Oddly enough, Judaism also lifts women to this level..so really it's Judaism and not the American femenist "liberation" movement.

Now, some will fight to the death that women belong in the home to raise the family...and men ought to be out there bringing home the bacon, so to speak.  And it makes sense..we won't have Juanita teaching little Johnny Espanol before he can speak English or Hebrew.  However, I'm not sure if I can subscribe to that point of view 100%. Maybe i can subscribe to it 85%...but not 100%.  It is hard for a mother to to raise children by herself even if she were a home-maker and "domesticated".  This is what I have first hand observed...So Juanita or Grandmama might be needed to help around the house..and if not them two...Daddy-o who works 40 hours a week to bring home the bacon....

let me tell you something, guys. Gd willing, when I"m married, may Gd give me the strength...I will help my wife in the kitchen,help her clean, help her with the kids even if it is me bringing home the bacon.  And likewise...if she needs to strengthen her mind and make something of herself and work in an office to bring some bacon, that's fine with me..  

Don't think it is the Jewish way...but it is what it is...that's how i was raised and it worked for me...and i didn't get a Juanita..I got Grandma, Aunty, cousins, Hebrew school, After school activities, sports, and summer school.

The women's lib movement had gotten way too radical and has done the opposite crazy affect.  Political correctness has done the same thing.  I dont' want to change the subject of this thread, but political correctness really should be used in times when it is necessary to be polite to promote dialogue and understanding...but that has become a terrible animal in itself and has been misused in the worst double standards possible.  The militant female lib movements has done exactly the same thing..and on that note, I agree with most of you here.

[Dr. Dan]

In my opinion, I see G-d's chosen people treating women the best....

For instance...

Women in the IDF train the men for combat, also, they lead and learn how to do everything there ....

Deborah was a judge over Israel, she was a woman....

Of course, we don't like the evil women, like Queen Jezabel and her hubby Ahab....

Not a feminist here....yes, women should be able to raise their children without being condemned for wanting to do so (I have been ostracized and condemned for doing so).....

I was in the US military, the men in the US military (well some to alot of them) DON'T want women in the military, I wish I could have been in the IDF.....

Women in the IDF seem to get treated with respect, etc. No women should not be firing on the front lines, unless, of course all the men are dead or something...but if you notice, the women in the IDF all know how to shoot and carry their weapons also and can kill someone if needed....

ALSO: Israel needs all it's people to help defend it if need be.....so they need the women, also!!! How do you think they have survived all these years, too?

Sometimes, us women have to take on the roles of the men (when the men have abandoned us) but we wish it did not have to always be that way... but we will do it if we HAVE to.....

Ecclesiasties says that there is a time and a place for everything under the sun, I would imagine that also refers to the women and their roles....they have their times to raise their kids, defend their homes and country if need be, and even kill if they have to.....

Just because we are women, doesn't mean we are incompetent or stupid or have no brains (well, sometimes I wonder if I do have a whole brain, but Im trying to be funny then).

The women I happen to have known over the years, they just want to be allowed to have an opinion, and thoughts and be listened to and not kicked, punched, slapped or thrown across the room......to be treated with honor and respect and like human beings.

I perceive that perhaps ONE of the reasons the women's lib movement kind of took on a mind of it's own is because of abuse issues in the past with women......amongst other things, but this is a big one.

Hopefully things will balance out correctly. Its hard to know even what to do any more, rofl...

I just say follow your hearts.

Treat each other with respect.

Love the L-rd your G-d with all your heart, with all your mind and with all your soul, and love your neighbor as yourself, (which also means your wives, mothers, sisters and girlfriends and co-workers).....

 

i like yoru post.

[nessuno]

i think the a good point about the female "liberation" is that a woman voiced that females have a choice to be what they want to be and that they don't have to be just one thing...

and that they aren't property.

When they start supporting all women I might understand your statement.
What if you choose to do just one thing?
What if you choose family over career?
Why are those women held in such disdain by the feminist?

Ok, it seems i need to make my point clarified because i sound like someone who is pro-feminist movement.  I am NOT pro-woman's "liberation".  If anything, I'm just as against it as most people on this forum.  It has done more harm than good.  All of the harm that it has done has been described by numerous posts on this subject.  However, there is one good that has come out of it.  Women are no longer looked as being beneath men.  Yes, we are comparing apples and oranges...but both are still fruit equally healthy.  Women are something remarkable and very special people.  Face it, men could never be able to live without them.  If there is anything the feminist movement has indicated to me is exactly this thought.  Oddly enough, Judaism also lifts women to this level..so really it's Judaism and not the American femenist "liberation" movement.

Now, some will fight to the death that women belong in the home to raise the family...and men ought to be out there bringing home the bacon, so to speak.  And it makes sense..we won't have Juanita teaching little Johnny Espanol before he can speak English or Hebrew.  However, I'm not sure if I can subscribe to that point of view 100%. Maybe i can subscribe to it 85%...but not 100%.  It is hard for a mother to to raise children by herself even if she were a home-maker and "domesticated".  This is what I have first hand observed...So Juanita or Grandmama might be needed to help around the house..and if not them two...Daddy-o who works 40 hours a week to bring home the bacon....

let me tell you something, guys. Gd willing, when I"m married, may Gd give me the strength...I will help my wife in the kitchen,help her clean, help her with the kids even if it is me bringing home the bacon.  And likewise...if she needs to strengthen her mind and make something of herself and work in an office to bring some bacon, that's fine with me.. 

Don't think it is the Jewish way...but it is what it is...that's how i was raised and it worked for me...and i didn't get a Juanita..I got Grandma, Aunty, cousins, Hebrew school, After school activities, sports, and summer school.

The women's lib movement had gotten way too radical and has done the opposite crazy affect.  Political correctness has done the same thing.  I dont' want to change the subject of this thread, but political correctness really should be used in times when it is necessary to be polite to promote dialogue and understanding...but that has become a terrible animal in itself and has been misused in the worst double standards possible.  The militant female lib movements has done exactly the same thing..and on that note, I agree with most of you here.

  Thanks for clarifying.  I agree with what you said in this post.  The woman you choose to marry will be a lucky one.

[~Hanna~]

Thankyou        It's from my heart......

In my opinion, I see G-d's chosen people treating women the best....

For instance...

Women in the IDF train the men for combat, also, they lead and learn how to do everything there ....

Deborah was a judge over Israel, she was a woman....

Of course, we don't like the evil women, like Queen Jezabel and her hubby Ahab....

Not a feminist here....yes, women should be able to raise their children without being condemned for wanting to do so (I have been ostracized and condemned for doing so).....

I was in the US military, the men in the US military (well some to alot of them) DON'T want women in the military, I wish I could have been in the IDF.....

Women in the IDF seem to get treated with respect, etc. No women should not be firing on the front lines, unless, of course all the men are dead or something...but if you notice, the women in the IDF all know how to shoot and carry their weapons also and can kill someone if needed....

ALSO: Israel needs all it's people to help defend it if need be.....so they need the women, also!!! How do you think they have survived all these years, too?

Sometimes, us women have to take on the roles of the men (when the men have abandoned us) but we wish it did not have to always be that way... but we will do it if we HAVE to.....

Ecclesiasties says that there is a time and a place for everything under the sun, I would imagine that also refers to the women and their roles....they have their times to raise their kids, defend their homes and country if need be, and even kill if they have to.....

Just because we are women, doesn't mean we are incompetent or stupid or have no brains (well, sometimes I wonder if I do have a whole brain, but Im trying to be funny then).

The women I happen to have known over the years, they just want to be allowed to have an opinion, and thoughts and be listened to and not kicked, punched, slapped or thrown across the room......to be treated with honor and respect and like human beings.

I perceive that perhaps ONE of the reasons the women's lib movement kind of took on a mind of it's own is because of abuse issues in the past with women......amongst other things, but this is a big one.

Hopefully things will balance out correctly. Its hard to know even what to do any more, rofl...

I just say follow your hearts.

Treat each other with respect.

Love the L-rd your G-d with all your heart, with all your mind and with all your soul, and love your neighbor as yourself, (which also means your wives, mothers, sisters and girlfriends and co-workers).....

 

i like yoru post.

[~Hanna~]

i think the a good point about the female "liberation" is that a woman voiced that females have a choice to be what they want to be and that they don't have to be just one thing...

and that they aren't property.

Women have never been 'property'.  At least not in the West.

You sound like a victim of the modern public school system, Dan.

No, women, even till this day, are treated like property

And women have made themselves into property..just look at MTV and such...My point was that the women's lib movement (not being perfect) attempted to give women that ability to think for themselves rather than males to think for them and also to be seen as property.  

And by all means...that's the only good thing it might have done..

the rest was a lot worse because now a "liberated" woman feels it's ok for her to be a slut and sleep around and do the things she does..because she's "liberated"...and she has a choice to be with a man or without a man...

So yes, the liberated movmeent did terribly as well...

I'm saying one good thing it might have done...one of the points was that it gave women that choice if they wanted to pursue a career or stay at home..or to disallow some evils of men that would rule over her...yes, there were men in the west that didnt' treat women with any respect...

and look how far it has gotten us...More decent men fear women and don't push themselves on women..and it is because of the women's lib movement. Women are more empowered to say, "No."
that's one positive thing that iw oudl say came out of it.

But a lot of negatives came as well..actually more negatives...These negatives need to be undone.  And the positives reinforced.

I agree.......

[Rubystars]

And equality of opportunity is not enough for them.  Like their fellow leftists, they demand equality of outcome.  

Herein lies a large part of the problem. I want equality of opportunity. Many of the most lucrative jobs have been and still are male-dominated professions. Single women or even women who need to work to help support their families need to be able to have access to these kinds of very lucrative positions, rather than being relegated to only lower paid work that they were traditionally assigned to.

That doesn't, of course, mean they should get a job that they're not qualfied for or that they're less qualified for than a man. I hate affirmative action in all its forms.

So for example if there are only male firefighters, it's because of discrimination against women by the evil, patriarchal white man.  Feminists ignore the fact that most women weigh less than men, have less lean muscle mass than men, and therefore are unable to carry a 200 lb. man out of a burning building.  Feminists want the standards lowered so there can be female firefighters, and never mind that they won't be able to do with job as well as the men.  Never mind that people in burning buildings would die if the women can't carry them out, they want women firefighters, or else!

I'd say that females should be able to apply to be firefighters, and if they CAN carry a 200 lb. object a certain distance then they should not face discrimination simply based on gender. You would be correct that MOST applicants who would qualify would be men however, and if everything was done fairly, then most of the firefighters would be men, but I don't think a woman who is capable of that feat should be barred from that type of employment, as long as she's fully qualified.

I do want to be free to pursue what I wish, but I don't like to see men denigrated or spoken badly about either. Both men and women should receive respect, and neither should be cheated. I also don't like how women think that "their body" includes someone else's  body growing inside them. They don't have the right to murder an innocent baby!

[AsheDina]

I don't oppose women being in the military.
I just don't think they should be on the front lines.
I work in a profession dominated by women.
I work with a unit full of women.
I couldn't see us on the front lines in a war, for a multitude of reasons, and we save lives every day.
Women are intelligent and strong - yes!
We can do anything but be men 

Paulette - I have no doubt that you could fight on the front lines.    You have convinced me that you have the spirit of a great warrior.
I'm sorry if I have offended you in anyway.
Hanna - I have great respect for women who have served in the military.

I just don't think men and women are interchangeable.  In my opinion, but not in every case, men are the stronger sex.

 Are you kidding Bullcat! HHAHAHAHA! NAH you dont offend me! NOT AT ALL! I get offended by people that are forceful indoctrinators- OF ANY TYPE. These militant ugly fe-beasts ALWAYS TRY to get me to "join them" Hell NO. Can you IMAGINE a woman like me, being WITH THEM?? THAT would be a nitemare for men. Nope- nuh uh- I AM WITH men 100%. David is as "Man" as any other man out there- and I fully intend to make SURE that he is ALWAYS respected as a man, by ME.

[Rubystars]

Well I believe in equal pay, equal rights, equal speech but when you got groups like N.O.W. basically condeming everything having to do with males then thats where the line is drawn.

Now what am I about to say may shove off some well.. So be it

Ladies, there are many jobs out there that are specific for men and men only.

Right you are MasterWolf.

I don't think women should serve on the front lines in the military.

I also think in most cases, not all but most, women are better at the job of Mothering then Fathers. 

 Bullcat- even ME? I would do ANYTHING to go and kill and destroy the enemy (In the Military-OK? people? and be a D.S., D.I.).
  I think I am suppose to be from some different century or something- I DONT BELONG HERE!!!
  Molly Pitcher destroyed the enemy during the Revolutionary War. My BIGGEST dream was to be a US MARINE- and my Nana forbid it. She lived to REGRET this. I am WAY to militant- (in a good way) in the real world, in fact, I scare off most men- of course ONLY David knows that I am VERY MUCH a lady, but others do NOT, and THAT is good. Well- maybe Chaim- I did meet him- he told David I was a "sweet lady" BWWAAHHHHHH little does he know. <evil grin>  

There have been women on the front lines in very bloody, close combat wars, like the Civil War (The War of Northern Aggression), where women fought on both sides. They killed the enemy with close range weapons and fought right alongside the men.

I do agree that most women would probably be better in other roles, but again for me it's all about qualifications. In segregated units, women should be able to do this if they're truly capable of it both physically and mentally. Some women are naturally more aggressive. This isn't necessarily un-feminine, it's the way they were born. Some women are softer and less aggressive, this is the way they were born.

[AsheDina]

 In segregated units, women should be able to do this if they're truly capable of it both physically and mentally



 Women are NOT at all NATURALLY physically more stronger than men. They are just not- and should just deal with it.  This is precisely WHY they are not allowed on the front lines of combat in most Militarys. Women ARE VERY GOOD at psy ops though, but women have used that gift to manipulate, instead of for righteous reasons.

[Scriabin]

There have been women on the front lines in very bloody, close combat wars, like the Civil War (The War of Northern Aggression), where women fought on both sides. They killed the enemy with close range weapons and fought right alongside the men.

Nonsense.

[Rubystars]

In segregated units, women should be able to do this if they're truly capable of it both physically and mentally



 Women are NOT at all NATURALLY physically more stronger than men. They are just not- and should just deal with it.  This is precisely WHY they are not allowed on the front lines of combat in most Militarys. Women ARE VERY GOOD at psy ops though, but women have used that gift to manipulate, instead of for righteous reasons.

On the whole, I'd agree with you. That's why I said that women should only be allowed to be on the front lines IF they are qualified to do so. Some women are. Not all, not even most women, but some women. I don't believe in equality of outcome. The overwhelming majority of direct combat troops SHOULD be men, not women, because they're in general more qualified, but there are some women who are also very good at that sort of thing. They may be few and far between, but they exist.

Basically I don't believe anyone should be barred from something, or allowed into something, because of what's between their legs. It should be based on what they can (or can't) accomplish.

Most women just aren't cut out to be on the front line, but for those who are truly motivated AND capable, they would have my full support.

[cjd]

There have been women on the front lines in very bloody, close combat wars, like the Civil War (The War of Northern Aggression), where women fought on both sides. They killed the enemy with close range weapons and fought right alongside the men.

Nonsense.

(The War of Northern Aggression) Please don't be insulted by what I am about to say but every time I hear this expression I bust out laughing. Why do southerners still use this term and could anyone please explain it to me so I could take it more seriously.

[Rubystars]

There have been women on the front lines in very bloody, close combat wars, like the Civil War (The War of Northern Aggression), where women fought on both sides. They killed the enemy with close range weapons and fought right alongside the men.

Nonsense.

Clad in Uniform
Women Soldiers of the Civil War
By
Wendy A. King

An adaptation of the original booklet [© 1992]
 By the author
For the 32nd Virginia Inf. Co. H reenactment group
Internet Homepage,

THE WOMAN SOLDIER
(Remember Me)

Once I stood in ranks of Blue.
Once I stood in ranks of Gray.
Fighting for a cause so true
Wondering - Who would remember me today?

Disguised as man; filled with alarm.
An enemy's bullet could yet slay
This woman's life - or cause me harm.
Who would remember me today?

The missiles, they whistle through the air.
A "rebel yell" from those in gray.
The victor's shout, the loser's despair.
Who would remember me today?

A last volley sent from hidden lines.
Oh sudden shock! Life fades away.
Crimson springs from this body mine.
Pray - Who would remember me today?

Please lay me in a grave, unmarked
And place me where my comrades lay.
Remember this battle with a park
And please, remember me today.

Some were found out and discharged; some were found out, but allowed to remain; and some served their enlistment during the war completely undiscovered.  Albert Cashier, born Irene Hodgers in Ireland, spent the entire war in the guise of a man, and continued in that disguise almost until her dying day in 1915.

Information about these unique women is extremely scarce.  A woman enlisting in either army disguised herself as a man by cutting her hair short, wearing men's clothing, binding her chest, and taking a man's name.  She did her best to act like a man so as not to draw attention to herself or her sex.  Those who were successful in their disguise and died in combat were known only by their male identity.  Most of their real names are lost to history.

http://www.geocities.com/reenactor.geo/cladinuniform.htm

The site also has a list of some of their names.

[Rubystars]

There have been women on the front lines in very bloody, close combat wars, like the Civil War (The War of Northern Aggression), where women fought on both sides. They killed the enemy with close range weapons and fought right alongside the men.

Nonsense.

(The War of Northern Aggression) Please don't be insulted by what I am about to say but every time I hear this expression I bust out laughing. Why do southerners still use this term and could anyone please explain it to me so I could take it more seriously.

There was nothing civil about the "Civil War". The North wrote most of the history that schoolchildren are taught today, to demonize the south.

[Americanhero1]

There have been women on the front lines in very bloody, close combat wars, like the Civil War (The War of Northern Aggression), where women fought on both sides. They killed the enemy with close range weapons and fought right alongside the men.

Nonsense.

(The War of Northern Aggression) Please don't be insulted by what I am about to say but every time I hear this expression I bust out laughing. Why do southerners still use this term and could anyone please explain it to me so I could take it more seriously.

There was nothing civil about the "Civil War". The North wrote most of the history that schoolchildren are taught today, to demonize the south.

Yeah but what do people in the south say "The South Shall Rise Again"

[Americanhero1]

I dont think Women should be on the front line during War I dont know why I feel this way but to me it just seems wrong

[Rubystars]

There have been women on the front lines in very bloody, close combat wars, like the Civil War (The War of Northern Aggression), where women fought on both sides. They killed the enemy with close range weapons and fought right alongside the men.

Nonsense.

(The War of Northern Aggression) Please don't be insulted by what I am about to say but every time I hear this expression I bust out laughing. Why do southerners still use this term and could anyone please explain it to me so I could take it more seriously.

There was nothing civil about the "Civil War". The North wrote most of the history that schoolchildren are taught today, to demonize the south.

Yeah but what do people in the south say "The South Shall Rise Again"

All we can really do at this point is try to keep our culture alive and enrich the United States. Southern and Midwestern areas are the places where there are still some moral people in large numbers. The Northeast and the West Coast are just about gone to the liberals.

[Rubystars]

I dont think Women should be on the front line during War I dont know why I feel this way but to me it just seems wrong

Well if a woman has children I don't think she should fight in a war. I do believe in some traditional ways, such as that if a woman has children her role is to raise them, and sacrifice for them as much as possible until they're self-sufficient or at least adults. Putting anything else before her children (if she has them) is selfish.

[Americanhero1]

I dont think Women should be on the front line during War I dont know why I feel this way but to me it just seems wrong

Well if a woman has children I don't think she should fight in a war. I do believe in some traditional ways, such as that if a woman has children her role is to raise them, and sacrifice for them as much as possible until they're self-sufficient or at least adults. Putting anything else before her children (if she has them) is selfish.

Yeah but a couple of months ago they had a Mother Son join the Army they both were called for active duty at the same time

[AsheDina]

In segregated units, women should be able to do this if they're truly capable of it both physically and mentally



 Women are NOT at all NATURALLY physically more stronger than men. They are just not- and should just deal with it.  This is precisely WHY they are not allowed on the front lines of combat in most Militarys. Women ARE VERY GOOD at psy ops though, but women have used that gift to manipulate, instead of for righteous reasons.

On the whole, I'd agree with you. That's why I said that women should only be allowed to be on the front lines IF they are qualified to do so. Some women are. Not all, not even most women, but some women. I don't believe in equality of outcome. The overwhelming majority of direct combat troops SHOULD be men, not women, because they're in general more qualified, but there are some women who are also very good at that sort of thing. They may be few and far between, but they exist.

Basically I don't believe anyone should be barred from something, or allowed into something, because of what's between their legs. It should be based on what they can (or can't) accomplish.

Most women just aren't cut out to be on the front line, but for those who are truly motivated AND capable, they would have my full support.

 It is not a question of being more qualified. Women are physically INCAPABLE of carrying out the task that men do physically. What women are GOOD at- is precisely what you stated- "Motivators" They CAN fly helicopters. ALSO- once a month- regardless- sanitation purposes as well, thats the bottom line., fighter pilots, mechanics and truck drivers.
  In this regard, it IS what is in between their legs that keeps them out. The US MARINES will not have any women in combat, ever- neither will the US ARMY. They are physically NOT fit.

[Rubystars]

It is not a question of being more qualified. Women are physically INCAPABLE of carrying out the task that men do physically. What women are GOOD at- is precisely what you stated- "Motivators"  In this regard, it IS what is in between their legs that keeps them out. The US MARINES will not have any women in combat, ever- neither will the US ARMY. They are physically NOT fit.

I agree that the overwhelming majority of women will never be physically fit or qualified for such a job. However, I think the door should be left open for someone who is. There may be one in a million who can do those things.

[Dr. Dan]

no offense, but in my opinion, it is very inappropriate for any woman to be in the front lines of any kind of war.

That's not to say that women should not participate in a fighting army during wartime..but behind the lines in order to protect the men in the front lines..not vice versa.

[AsheDina]

It is not a question of being more qualified. Women are physically INCAPABLE of carrying out the task that men do physically. What women are GOOD at- is precisely what you stated- "Motivators"  In this regard, it IS what is in between their legs that keeps them out. The US MARINES will not have any women in combat, ever- neither will the US ARMY. They are physically NOT fit.

I agree that the overwhelming majority of women will never be physically fit or qualified for such a job. However, I think the door should be left open for someone who is. There may be one in a million who can do those things.

 They fight as a TEAM. It is NOT about "individuality" A woman cannot physically be part of combat infantry. They CAN Fly helicopters, and be fighter pilots- however- these are very SMART women. They tend to also pull the female card out quite a bit- "I dont like your swearing farting" bla bla bla.

[Rubystars]

no offense, but in my opinion, it is very inappropriate for any woman to be in the front lines of any kind of war.

That's not to say that women should not participate in a fighting army during wartime..but behind the lines in order to protect the men in the front lines..not vice versa.

I'm not offended.

[Rubystars]

It is not a question of being more qualified. Women are physically INCAPABLE of carrying out the task that men do physically. What women are GOOD at- is precisely what you stated- "Motivators"  In this regard, it IS what is in between their legs that keeps them out. The US MARINES will not have any women in combat, ever- neither will the US ARMY. They are physically NOT fit.

I agree that the overwhelming majority of women will never be physically fit or qualified for such a job. However, I think the door should be left open for someone who is. There may be one in a million who can do those things.

 They fight as a TEAM. It is NOT about "individuality" A woman cannot physically be part of combat infantry. They CAN Fly helicopters, and be fighter pilots- however- these are very SMART women. They tend to also pull the female card out quite a bit- "I dont like your swearing farting" bla bla bla.

I see what you mean, that kind of thing (criticizing male, masculine behavior, which is crucial in a war and also to build camaraderie) would not be acceptable.