Challenge to Ralph

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

" think it's extremely disrespectful and arrogant that these creatures think they will go to heaven at the expense of Jews burning in hell forever."

 I would have to say who cares? Let people believe in whatever they feel like as long as they do not touch me or other Jews.

[Lisa]

I would have to say who cares? Let people believe in whatever they feel like as long as they do not touch me or other Jews.

I agree.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Yea, but everyone will say that they are the true church, etc. for example the Catholics will say that they have the true church, the protestents will say no, the catholic church is whatever, and they are the true Christians, etc. With this anytime someone doesn"t agree with you and the other party identifies themselves as "Christian" would then be called a "so-called Christian" just becuase you (by you I dont necessary mean you personally, although you also do it a lot) disagree with them, or they show to be bad people.

I do not say that I am a part of the "one true church" (well, I am, but I don't mean that my particular congregation is the only true one). Christians who claim that their sect alone is right are clearly in the wrong, and violating Biblical teachings. Some of them are just mistaken, and others are heretics who are not part of the true church at all. But not all Christians are like that and it's not fair for people to point out Christian factions when many other faiths are also rife with internecine disagreement.

[q_q_]

If your dad was "Iranian Armenian" what would he know about how Jews were treated in Iran?   Lots of Iranians say they treated Jews so benevolently, but not so with Islam.  And Islam has long been an influence in Iran.   Try asking some actual Iranian Jews; what does your mom say about it?   Often the Iranian Jews have a different story to tell than the prideful Persians with their bragging about tolerance.   Secondly, who cares about this kind of argument?  There's no "popularity contest" about who treated their Jews the best in history and that's who you can trust or can't trust.   How the non-Jews treat the Jews is like the passing wind, good one day but could become bad at any drop of the hat.  And in most places in history it was bad at at least some time or another.   That is why our place is only in Israel, with a Jewish leadership.   

Look deeper into "Iranian" history and you will see that the quite benevolent Persian regime in Bavel became totally oppressive and brutal against Jews in the later centuries leading up to the Islamic invasion after muhammad (after the long period of "tolerance" and goodwill that Jews enjoyed in Bavel for quite a long time).  The talmud details some of the cruel horrible things the Persian regime began to do to persecute Jews.   But like all Diaspora communities, the Bavel Jews should have known better that it wouldn't last forever.  THe goodwill never lasts forever.    (Just as today, the Iranian regime shows its true jihad colors against  Israel while it pays lipservice to the 1/4 of Iranian Jews who still remain after the Islamic revolution and whom the Iranian regime kindly "tolerates" by not wiping them out - how generous of them)
 
But anyone who is willing to show goodwill toward us NOW, why shouldn't we accept it?   That is just silly.   The Iranian mullahs are building nukes and arming hezbollah to launch rockets at our cities as they have already done, and I'm supposed to feel nostalgic about the "past" tolerance of Iran rather than accept the CURRENT evangelical support for Israel?   That is insanity.

I'm sorry I mistyped I meant my mom. The Jews were treated worse In Europe. This is not even a matter of debate. The Holocaust alone put the Jews through more torment than all of Iranian history. I despise the Muslims anyway, so it doesn't make much difference for me.

Times have changed, our enemies shift from one group to another.  For 2000 years years we were persecuted by christians, that made muslims loook civil.

But since the holocaust,  

Christians have gone quite passive, in europe they are less religious, and in america many  love jews and israel (some just to get jews to convert, but others do so sincerely, and/or because of the verse in genesis that he who blesses Israel is blessed, and he who curses israel is cursed0

Muslims have radicalised (perhaps back to how they were in mohammed's time), this has happened with the rise of wahabism, which moves away from "classical islam" - which persecuted jews moderately compared to christians and tries to move towards the original back, I think, to basic desert islam.

Our enemies now are the "palestinians" not the Germans. (not that we should forgive germany. we cannot).

Evangelical Christians have a different background to medieval christians that would have thrown jews into fire and pushed a crucifix in their face while chanting from their bible and yelling "SATAN"!

You have to keep your finger on the pulse and your eyes open, and be aware of dramatic changes or shifts in society and take them into account! You can't make your decisions based on how life was in another era.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

It's like these liberal Jewish organizations getting all hysterical when they discover that Mormons posthumously convert Jews in their temples, and ask them not to do it.  So what?

A tangent I know, but Mormons are not true Christians by any scholarly definition. They are polytheists who base their lives on the teachings of one "prophet".

Finally, if you're against JTF working with Christians, then what's the point of posting here?  And if you think all white Christians are bad, then why even live in America?  Why not move to Israel, China, or some other Muslim country?  

I agree; he all but said he posts here only to stir the pot.

[q_q_]

I disagree here--there may be 34,000 sects, but there is one true church.

 Yea, but everyone will say that they are the true church, etc. for example the Catholics will say that they have the true church, the protestents will say no, the catholic church is whatever, and they are the true Christians, etc. With this anytime someone doesn"t agree with you and the other party identifies themselves as "Christian" would then be called a "so-called Christian" just becuase you (by you I dont necessary mean you personally, although you also do it a lot) disagree with them, or they show to be bad people.

well that is a bit incomplete, isn't it.

because you would say that orthodox judaism is the true judaism.

The fact that others (karaites for example!) would claim that theirs is true, doesn't mean that neither of you can claim it. Or say that judaism = theirs and the other is the fraud. It depends who one is talking to.

Amongst JTF, people understand that reform,conservative,liberal,recon, e.t.c. are frauds, they themselves don't even claim to be going back to true judaism.  Ther religion, that the torah is not binding is something new..
But if we are talking to karaites, there is no point saying their so-called judaism, because they cannot be expected to accept that.  A theological debate between O jews and karaites, would be the only way to argue it.

At JTF, we have different christians. Catholics, protestants, working together, and this isn't really the place for theological debate on that  .  So, if, CF was trying to say that some group of christians here are so-called christians , that would seem to be a bit inappropriate.  Because the only fair way to say that would be to have a theological debate, and theological debate between 2 allies, one group of christians and another, is not what JTF is about.  There must be other forums for that.

Not knowing much about christianity, I don't know what exactly the implications of CF's "true church" thing was, who would object e.t.c.





 

[George]

Let's assume that it's fine they think Jews are going to hell. What about the fact that they've persecuted Jews before. Even if you don't believe that people should pay for the crimes of their fathers, it's practically guaranteed that the Jews are headed for a conflict with these people and a big one.

[George]

I agree; he all but said he posts here only to stir the pot.

If you think I'm trying to convince people to become anti-Christian you're wrong. I know I can't, besides you started this thread not me.

[q_q_]

Let's assume that it's fine they think Jews are going to hell. What about the fact that they've persecuted Jews before. Even if you don't believe that people shouldn't pay for the crimes of their fathers, it's practically guaranteed that the Jews are headed for a conflict with these people and a big one.

many consider the Holocaust to have been the big one.

There may be another big one but there is no immediate risk of that at all. The immediate risks are clearly from the arabs.

Things don't just happen out of thin air.   You have to keep your finger on the pulse. "Sharpen your political antennae"

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

Evangelical Christians have a different background to medieval christians that would have thrown jews into fire and pushed a crucifix in their face while chanting from their bible and yelling "SATAN"!

 While this is true for the time being- their are 2 reasons for this. 1- America is a diverse country. It is good in the fact that their is seperation of church and state, although not completly good (expecially in the case with funding private schools, etc.) and their are wayy too many different sects, so no 1 sect has too much power to do what they feel like. - Their is a sort of balance of power where one group is not for the time being, able to physically do what they feel like- which is making everyone accept their positions (unlike in Europe where the church was the state, and many times ran and heavily influenced what happened in the counries and regions of Europe).
 Another explanation is that it is an evolutionary process so to speak. I think that the nations (at least Europe, not Arabia) have realised that the whole I will kill you or convert thing- does not work. In fact it only made the Jew hundreds of times stronger, clinging to G-d and the Torah, much more. The real destruction comes through embracing the Jew. Look at it this way- the statistics of the Jewish population in America is going down now, more then the time of the Holocaust (Jewish world population). Infact I believe that during the holocaust their was a positive population growth, while now their is a negative one.
 Well whatever it goes down to is that in truth G-d really controlls the world. He is the one who lets or doesn't let anyone (Jew or gentile) do to any other being. If He wants their to be anti-semitism, He will do so, and if not then no. Either way just trust in G-d and dont be afraid or paranoid of anyone or anything. No one can destroy your spirit, but g-d and yourself, so their's no one to fear but G-d and also your actions.

 Also about the statement someone made earlier about intent of it not being that important- I disagree, intent is VERY important, and counts as much, if not more then actions.

[George]

The Arabs and Iranians are easy to deal with. There nukes can be taken out with ease and their backward cult will keep them in their inferior state indefinitely. The Whites were and always will be the sworn enemies of Jews.

[MarZutra]

CF you are certainly correct albeit every Church states emphatically the same as their truth is the only true Christianity whether it be Catholic, Mormon, Hashem's Witness, Protestant, Baptist etc..  That's true but your opinions is certainly valid as with Jews; Deformed Jews argue that their "Judaism" is true Judaism and the Orthodox is not.  

The entire concept of the second coming of the Christos is for that purpose....  You're opinions from a believing Christians point of view are certainly valid...  I'm merely pointing out the specificities of Christianity in general.

Deleted -- this is not the place for that type of discussion

[schrodinger's cat]

The Arabs and Iranians are easy to deal with. There nukes can be taken out with ease and their backward cult will keep them in their inferior state indefinitely. The Whites were and always will be the sworn enemies of Jews.

You're insane.

[q_q_]

Evangelical Christians have a different background to medieval christians that would have thrown jews into fire and pushed a crucifix in their face while chanting from their bible and yelling "SATAN"!

 While this is true for the time being- their are 2 reasons for this. 1- America is a diverse country. It is good in the fact that their is seperation of church and state, although not completly good (expecially in the case with funding private schools, etc.) and their are wayy too many different sects, so no 1 sect has too much power to do what they feel like. - Their is a sort of balance of power where one group is not for the time being, able to physically do what they feel like- which is making everyone accept their positions (unlike in Europe where the church was the state, and many times ran and heavily influenced what happened in the counries and regions of Europe).
 Another explanation is that it is an evolutionary process so to speak. I think that the nations (at least Europe, not Arabia) have realised that the whole I will kill you or convert thing- does not work. In fact it only made the Jew hundreds of times stronger, clinging to G-d and the Torah, much more. The real destruction comes through embracing the Jew. Look at it this way- the statistics of the Jewish population in America is going down now, more then the time of the Holocaust (Jewish world population). Infact I believe that during the holocaust their was a positive population growth, while now their is a negative one.
 Well whatever it goes down to is that in truth G-d really controlls the world. He is the one who lets or doesn't let anyone (Jew or gentile) do to any other being. If He wants their to be anti-semitism, He will do so, and if not then no. Either way just trust in G-d and dont be afraid or paranoid of anyone or anything. No one can destroy your spirit, but g-d and yourself, so their's no one to fear but G-d and also your actions.

 Also about the statement someone made earlier about intent of it not being that important- I disagree, intent is VERY important, and counts as much, if not more then actions.

no tzvi, the holocaust did not make the jews stronger, and talking about a positive population growth during the holocaust(whether in america or timbuktu) is ridiculous  You are clearly not sensitive to the destruction of ashkenazi jewry..

The spiritual centers for ashkenazim, poland and russia.. are wasteland.  The MILLIONS of jews there are gone.

We had a rabbi from there, who held the chafetz chaim's teffilin, he came to britain and - after the holocaust - was the greatest talmudic scholar in europe, in his time, faster than the computer in finding things in the talmud.
The standard of torah there was unbelievable. The yeshivot of exceptional quality.  Ashkenazi jews nowadays are clinging onto what was then.  It's unbelievable how well ashkenazim have built up what they had, but in america.. But it still doesn't compare to what was in poland! Which is a big reason why they didn't want to leave. Religiously it was a paradise.


 

[q_q_]

CF you are certainly correct albeit every Church states emphatically the same as their truth is the only true Christianity whether it be Catholic, Mormon, Hashem's Witness, Protestant, Baptist etc..  That's true but your opinions is certainly valid as with Jews; Deformed Jews argue that their "Judaism" is true Judaism and the Orthodox is not.  

reform do not argue that they are going back, true judaism . They cannot maintain that. Those that aren't completely retarded might be able to say that they don't beleive in a true judaism. 

The entire concept of the second coming of the Christos is for that purpose....  You're opinions from a believing Christians point of view are certainly valid...  I'm merely pointing out the specificities of Christianity in general.

Deleted -- see above

You can't put something like that in a "ps" and expect to get away with it , expect people to just buy it.

Deleted - see above

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Lisa adds -- These kinds of discussions about who is or is not the Messiah or G-d are not for here. 

I didn't bring up this topic.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Amongst JTF, people understand that reform,conservative,liberal,recon, e.t.c. are frauds, they themselves don't even claim to be going back to true judaism.  Ther religion, that the torah is not binding is something new..
But if we are talking to karaites, there is no point saying their so-called judaism, because they cannot be expected to accept that.  A theological debate between O jews and karaites, would be the only way to argue it.

Yeah, and Christians understand that Mormons, JWs, Christian Scientists, etc. are not actual Christians.

So, if, CF was trying to say that some group of christians here are so-called christians , that would seem to be a bit inappropriate.

So I don't know what my own faith teaches? I'm not qualified to say that antisemitic mobs could not possibly be Christians according to the biblical definitions?

Not knowing much about christianity, I don't know what exactly the implications of CF's "true church" thing was, who would object e.t.c.

What I meant is that there are not a jillion different "kinds" of Christians--either you are really one or you aren't, just like with Judaism to use your example.




 

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Let's assume that it's fine they think Jews are going to hell. What about the fact that they've persecuted Jews before. Even if you don't believe that people should pay for the crimes of their fathers, it's practically guaranteed that the Jews are headed for a conflict with these people and a big one.

You are making completely baseless claims and predictions here.

1--Not all Christians teach that Jews are going to hell.
2--No real Christians ever persecuted Jews. Paul, who was an orthodox Jew, wrote in the book of Romans in the N.T. that Gentile Christians are "grafts" onto the branches of the true tree (the Jews)--which was specifically a warning to them not to get haughty and anti-Semitic.
3--Show me how the fathers of contemporary American Christians are responsible for anti-Semitism.
4--What is your evidence that Jews are headed for "a big conflict" with American Christians?

[schrodinger's cat]

The Arabs and Iranians are easy to deal with. There nukes can be taken out with ease and their backward cult will keep them in their inferior state indefinitely. The Whites were and always will be the sworn enemies of Jews.

This comment has really disturbed me.  I couldn't figure out why exactly, until I realized the only place I have every heard the phrase "The Whites were and always will be the sworn enemies of Jews." I have never ever heard any Jew proclaim that "whites" were his enemy or even adversary.  The only place I have heard this phrase used is on Nazi forums.

I believe you are a Nazi and an impersonator.  You are trying to foment hate between Jews and Christians on this forum.  That is my opinion. 

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

I believe you are a Nazi and an impersonator.  You are trying to foment hate between Jews and Christians on this forum.  That is my opinion. 

Hmmm.

[Dan]

We had this type of riff raff before, I haven't been playing attention to this from the beginning but...
  Ralph should be banned for making such statements, he knows better than that, he can not go unpunished  for this!
 Do we have to loose members over this type of stupidity, I say drop the act Ralph, you one of our former disgruntled members who's looking to cause trouble again-

[Scriabin]

The Arabs and Iranians are easy to deal with. There nukes can be taken out with ease and their backward cult will keep them in their inferior state indefinitely. The Whites were and always will be the sworn enemies of Jews.

Whites are capable.  Those other groups are pathetic.

That's the difference.

A capable enemy is an effective one.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

It is easy to compare something to the shoah and then say 'so and so' treated better.  ANYTHING is better compared to the shoah.   But you can't take one small window in Iranian history and pretend that that is everything from start to finish.   Furthermore, 3/4 of the Jewish population left Iran following the Islamic revolution.   They left for a reason, and they weren't stupid.   But like I said, this argument is silly.   Please comment on my pertinent point which is, what does Iranian tolerance have to do with anything, and why should it matter considering they are a direct enemy today.   Even if you think evangelical American Christian support of Israel (and JTF?) is "selfish" because they do it to get into heaven, first of all who cares, so what, and secondly why should that be a reason not to accept it?     Also, please consider that it is not accurate or fair to equate Christian Europe with American Christians.

I mentioned Iran to show that as evil as the Iranians are the White Christians were worse. I think it's extremely disrespectful and arrogant that these creatures think they will go to heaven at the expense of Jews burning in hell forever. This is bordering Islamic evil. I equate Christian Europe with American Christians because they are the same people. First they try to commit a genocide against Jews, then when they fail to do that, they say Jews will go to hell forever, just support Israel so we can go to heaven. There are Christians who don't think like this. There aren't absolutes in almost anything but they are mostly evil. I guarantee you the Jews are headed for a conflict with these people.

There has never been Christian anti-Jewish pogroms in America.  It is one of the only majority-Christian countries in history that can say that.   Therefore you cannot equate American Christians with Christian Europe.   America was a country founded with a majority Christian population and it was also founded on solid righteous principles.   People here developed a value system incompatible with Europe, in which the vast majority here are not hateful of Jews.   Yeah it can change at any time, like I already said, but I'm not basing on what if, I'm basing this on hard evidence of behavior.   America has not massacred Jews in the name of "Christianity"   -  You can't just brush this aside and ignore this.   This sets America apart from Europe in a big way.       

Now let's examine RIGHT NOW.   Right now, it's Iran developing nukes for the purpose of wiping out Israel.   American Christians aren't doing that.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Let's assume that it's fine they think Jews are going to hell. What about the fact that they've persecuted Jews before. Even if you don't believe that people should pay for the crimes of their fathers, it's practically guaranteed that the Jews are headed for a conflict with these people and a big one.

2--No real Christians ever persecuted Jews. Paul, who was an orthodox Jew, wrote in the book of Romans in the N.T. that Gentile Christians are "grafts" onto the branches of the true tree (the Jews)--which was specifically a warning to them not to get haughty and anti-Semitic.

That's not how the church or christians in medieval europe interpreted that, and I think it's silly to pretend that it is.  If you want to call the VAST MAJORITY of medieval "christians" in Christian Europe as "fake Christians" then that is your choice, but most people would disagree and say that this concept is not historically accurate.   You are artificially implanting a modern interpretation on a society of the past.      ie, what you say is a "real Christian" today, was not considered a "real Christian" back then.   It's a modern interpretation.

[Lisa]

That's not how the church or christians in medieval europe interpreted that, and I think it's silly to pretend that it is.  If you want to call the VAST MAJORITY of medieval "christians" in Christian Europe as "fake Christians" then that is your choice, but most people would disagree and say that this concept is not historically accurate.   You are artificially implanting a modern interpretation on a society of the past.      ie, what you say is a "real Christian" today, was not considered a "real Christian" back then.   It's a modern interpretation.

C.F. it's not for us Jews to say who is and who is not a real Christian.  Kahane Was Right BT was most likely just going by what the people of that time called themselves.