Author Topic: The Kabbalah is not a fashion statement  (Read 8999 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline zachor_ve_kavod

  • Master JTFer
  • ******
  • Posts: 2179
The Kabbalah is not a fashion statement
« on: November 04, 2008, 08:40:24 PM »
We see celebrities like Madonna taking up Kabbalah and I think it's disgusting.  First of all, even in Eastern Europe, where Kabbalah was practiced most by religious Jews, people were told to first learn Torah and to learn it well before even considering going on this mystical path.  Usually, Jews waited until they were about 40 years of age, so that they had a good grounding in Talmud/Torah.  Without this good grounding, Kabbalah can be misused and misinterpreted, and that is dangerous.

I personally, have made no immediate plans to study Kabbalah because there is still too much that I need to know about Torah, and I am 35 years old.

I find it offensive that celebrities have begun studies in Kabbalah, when they are not even Jewish, nor are they interested in Judaism.  They just like mysticism.  I wish they would take up voodoo instead.

Offline Ronen Levi Yitzchak Segal

  • Junior JTFer
  • **
  • Posts: 52
Re: The Kabbalah is not a fashion statement
« Reply #1 on: November 05, 2008, 08:50:29 AM »
Baruch Hashem - well, to be honest, it does mention that in the times of the geula, the secrets of the Torah will be known to the many.  I personally don't know how I feel about our holy Kabalah being translated and on-line, but at least in this way, the non-Jews will remember that it is our job to elucidate Torah further for them.

In this way, they will one day invite us all back to Israel to sit peacefully and learn Torah b'rabim.  And I think we will share, at that time, all our wisdom for them.  Remember, they will be providing for us our physical needs - in return, we will teach them Torah.

I saw this little trend as just another sign that moshiach is here and the non-Jews wish to know the deepest secrets of our Torah.

G-d bless you.

Offline q_q_

  • Ultimate JTFer
  • *******
  • Posts: 3819
Re: The Kabbalah is not a fashion statement
« Reply #2 on: November 05, 2008, 08:58:12 AM »
We see celebrities like Madonna taking up Kabbalah and I think it's disgusting.  First of all, even in Eastern Europe, where Kabbalah was practiced most by religious Jews, people were told to first learn Torah and to learn it well before even considering going on this mystical path.  Usually, Jews waited until they were about 40 years of age, so that they had a good grounding in Talmud/Torah.  Without this good grounding, Kabbalah can be misused and misinterpreted, and that is dangerous.

I personally, have made no immediate plans to study Kabbalah because there is still too much that I need to know about Torah, and I am 35 years old.

I find it offensive that celebrities have begun studies in Kabbalah, when they are not even Jewish, nor are they interested in Judaism.  They just like mysticism.  I wish they would take up voodoo instead.

It's not Kabbalah they are studying.

You have really opened up a ridiculous controversial subject out of nowhere.
A subject that has been explained many many times by lots of people.

The kabbalah center is a cult.  Her so-called rabbi , and the center, is fine with madonnah wearing teffilin(a jewish prayer garment) in one of her obviously sexual shows.

There must be thousands and thousands of articles from orthodox jews about the kabbalah center fraud..

Why cause people to repeat themselves by filling things in that you couldn't be bothered to write or are too ignorant and lazy to have looked up.

You opened up a can of worms.

If anything something about kabbalah is a torah subject and shoudl be there. But the level of intellect behind your post is so low that it doesn't deserve to be there either. No religious jew is going to be educated by it, and no gentile is going to get a good explanation from it.

You're not wrong,  but you've opened up a subject that most people don't have a clue about, because they are too lazy to google, so they obviously aren't that interested anyway..  And you miss out important facts..  Making the classic ignoramouses mistake of saying or suggesting that it really is kabbalah she is studying.

It's just pathetic.

Your posts aren't normally pathetic but this one is.

It's not exactly original either.

Offline zachor_ve_kavod

  • Master JTFer
  • ******
  • Posts: 2179
Re: The Kabbalah is not a fashion statement
« Reply #3 on: November 05, 2008, 10:29:57 AM »
We see celebrities like Madonna taking up Kabbalah and I think it's disgusting.  First of all, even in Eastern Europe, where Kabbalah was practiced most by religious Jews, people were told to first learn Torah and to learn it well before even considering going on this mystical path.  Usually, Jews waited until they were about 40 years of age, so that they had a good grounding in Talmud/Torah.  Without this good grounding, Kabbalah can be misused and misinterpreted, and that is dangerous.

I personally, have made no immediate plans to study Kabbalah because there is still too much that I need to know about Torah, and I am 35 years old.

I find it offensive that celebrities have begun studies in Kabbalah, when they are not even Jewish, nor are they interested in Judaism.  They just like mysticism.  I wish they would take up voodoo instead.

It's not Kabbalah they are studying.

You have really opened up a ridiculous controversial subject out of nowhere.
A subject that has been explained many many times by lots of people.

The kabbalah center is a cult.  Her so-called rabbi , and the center, is fine with madonnah wearing teffilin(a jewish prayer garment) in one of her obviously sexual shows.

There must be thousands and thousands of articles from orthodox jews about the kabbalah center fraud..

Why cause people to repeat themselves by filling things in that you couldn't be bothered to write or are too ignorant and lazy to have looked up.

You opened up a can of worms.

If anything something about kabbalah is a torah subject and shoudl be there. But the level of intellect behind your post is so low that it doesn't deserve to be there either. No religious jew is going to be educated by it, and no gentile is going to get a good explanation from it.

You're not wrong,  but you've opened up a subject that most people don't have a clue about, because they are too lazy to google, so they obviously aren't that interested anyway..  And you miss out important facts..  Making the classic ignoramouses mistake of saying or suggesting that it really is kabbalah she is studying.

It's just pathetic.

Your posts aren't normally pathetic but this one is.

It's not exactly original either.

If you believe, as you claim, that this post opens up a can of worms, then why are you responding to it?  Are you so certain that it isn't YOU who is opening up a can of worms?  When I see a post that I think is pathetic, I don't respond to it.  And how could the subject of this post be so dangerous, when you admit that it is hardly new subject matter?  My guess is that this post is not as troubling to you as you claim it is.  You are merely trying to lure me into a fight.  Having said that, I have no desire to fight with you about this.  If this post really bothers you, and you would like me to delete it, I'm willing to do that.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2008, 11:28:18 AM by zachor_ve_kavod »

Offline q_q_

  • Ultimate JTFer
  • *******
  • Posts: 3819
Re: The Kabbalah is not a fashion statement
« Reply #4 on: November 05, 2008, 12:52:59 PM »
I am certainly not telling you to delete it.

I responded to it because although it had some correct information, it had misinformation too, and I corrected it.

Now it's OK.

You -stupidly- opened up a can of worms.  I closed it. That's why I responded. It took some effort. And if you hadn't been so lazy in your research and your post, then you wouldn't have created a problem.

Now you should see why I responded by my explanation. It's because it's not just pathetic. It's misinformation. A can of worms.  So I didn't just leave it.



Offline muman613

  • Platinum JTF Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 29958
  • All souls praise Hashem, Hallelukah!
    • muman613 Torah Wisdom
Re: The Kabbalah is not a fashion statement
« Reply #5 on: November 05, 2008, 02:48:12 PM »
And what exactly is this 'can of worms' which he opened up? What he said is clearly true and we can find sources which back this up.

Here is a good article by Kabbalistic Rabbi Ari Bar Tzaddok, a well respected Rabbi who has been interviewed on IsraelNationalRadio a number of times...

This article explains why Madonnas version of Kabbalah is not Kosher.

Quote
http://koshertorah.com/PDF/madonna%20kabbalah.pdf
To be a Kabbalist requires of one many things. One must live a modest and holy life style in accordance to Torah Law. One must observe the commandments, even if one is a Righteous Gentile (Bat Noah) one has to observe all those commandments applicable to them. One must also have a comprehensive education in all applicable areas of Torah, not just Kabbalah. Madonna's recent video, its violent theme, her provocative dance moves and dress, which is certainly not modest by Torah standards suggests that she lacks these criteria, is unaware of them, or disregards them.

Here is a short bio of Rabbi Ariel Bar Tzaddok:
Quote
http://koshertorah.com/about-the-rav.html
Born and raised in New York, Ariel Bar Tzadok immigrated to Israel in 1979, and studied in some of the finest Sephardic yeshivot in Jerusalem, including Porat Yosef (Ir Atika) under Hakham Shalom Kohen.

In June 1983, Rabbi Bar Tzadok received his Rabbinic ordination (Haredi Ultra-Orthodox) from Rabbi Ya’aqob Peretz, Rosh Yeshiva of Collel Hekhal Pinhas.

While studying at Hekhal Pinhas, Rabbi Bar Tzadok was blessed by Shamayim to become the private student of the renowned Mekubal, Rabbi Meir Levi zt’l, the foremost student of the Head Kabbalist of Jerusalem, Rabbi Mordechai Sharabi zt’l.

muman613

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline q_q_

  • Ultimate JTFer
  • *******
  • Posts: 3819
Re: The Kabbalah is not a fashion statement
« Reply #6 on: November 05, 2008, 02:53:54 PM »
Muman,

As usual you don't understand my post.

Anyhow.

a)I agree with what Rabbi Ariel Bar Tzaddok wrote there. It's BLATANTLY OBVIOUS.
Maybe not to you, but to any 'other' religious jew.
Of course you think it disagrees, but all you can do is copy/paste.

b)I explained where the problem with the post zachor posted was, and it wasn't addressed to you.

c)Rabbi Ariel Bar Tzaddok is not right on everything. I am familiar with a number of his articles that were of an important nature, and have checked them with many scholars.    And they all said the references were bad or didn't prove what he wanted.  You are welcome to trust him though.

Now,
Even you Muman, a real layman, new to judaism, unscholarly, gullible, irrational, but a kahanist, would have been able to tell that he is not an authority to be trusted on everything. Try listening to his talk on Rabbi Kahane. See how off he is with that one.
You should really know though, that nobody is a scholar to be trusted on everything.

I have had many discussions with you Muman, and you have proven yourself to be dishonest, unable to reason,  unable to understand a thing.  But you know 2 things.  CTRL-C and CTRL-V


« Last Edit: November 05, 2008, 03:06:29 PM by q_q_ »

Offline Shlomo

  • Administrator
  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 5212
  • SAVE ISRAEL!
Re: The Kabbalah is not a fashion statement
« Reply #7 on: November 05, 2008, 03:46:41 PM »
q_q_,

Get a hold of yourself. I've banned two members for fighting yesterday. I'd rather not increase that number. This is a warning.

I'm tired of you contantly provoking fights and pushing buttons saying things like "Even you Muman, a real layman, new to judaism, unscholarly, gullible, irrational" and "you have proven yourself to be dishonest, unable to reason,  unable to understand a thing". Really? I find no truth to this at all. No, it's a verbal attack and it was intended to hurt.

This isn't intellectual. This isn't even acceptable. Do you know what this is? It's lashon hora and it's evil. Learn to control your anger. Do you see me lashing out at every person who insults me? Do you know how many times people have lashed out at me? WHO CARES? Your ego is in control here and it is NOT going to ruin this forum.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2008, 09:01:04 AM by Shlomo »
"In the final analysis, for the believer there are no questions, and for the non-believer there are no answers." -Chofetz Chaim

Offline Lisa

  • Forum Administrator
  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 9373
    • The Urban Grind
Re: The Kabbalah is not a fashion statement
« Reply #8 on: November 05, 2008, 04:49:41 PM »
q_q, I notice that you constantly put people down by calling them unintelligent, ignorant, etc.  You are certainly entitled to your opinion.  On the other hand, you are not the JTF judge and jury for everyone here. 

People have a right to post their opinions and observations without having to worry about you constantly making snide judgmental comments.  So while I agree with both you and Muman that the Madonna brand of Kaballah is not authentic, that is no excuse to call Zachor ve Kavod stupid, or to say that he "opened up a can of worms." 

Also, you need to show people more respect.  It's one thing to disagree with Muman.  But calling him dishonest, among other things, is not acceptable. 

And Muman, you should not let him goad you into fighting with him. 


Offline q_q_

  • Ultimate JTFer
  • *******
  • Posts: 3819
Re: The Kabbalah is not a fashion statement
« Reply #9 on: November 05, 2008, 04:55:14 PM »
You know I couldn't care less about Muman "insulting" me.. I wasn't "goaded" by it.

It's fairly obvious that I had said everything I had to say to muman in the one post.  I was clear in the post why it would only be one post where I responded to him.. It's a sharp clash but a brief one.   

Muman made one post on the subject, initiating dialogue with me, and we know that doesn't work.   I responded since it's a different subject.  And it's quite obvious that I said all I had to say to him on the matter in the one post.

He responded but I had nothing more to say, and didn't reply. Incase it wasn't obvious.

But instead of PMing your concerns that this would be a long argument, and instead of using sense, people continue..

You are all actually exasperating the problem. It was already over AFTER others started posting for calm. 

So my suggestion here is that people stop making repeated postings calling for calm. It is actually destroying "calm" and exasperating problems.

He initiated a dialogue with me.. I responded due to the subject matter. That was it. 1 post of mine and I had nothing more to say. So it was OVER.

And for the record, I didn't call zachor "stupid".

So don't jump in after 1 reply as if you are preventing a long 3 page argument. It wasn't ever going to happen.   Though you might make it a 3 page thread on calling for calm.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2008, 05:03:23 PM by q_q_ »

Offline jaime

  • Pro JTFer
  • *****
  • Posts: 811
Re: The Kabbalah is not a fashion statement
« Reply #10 on: November 05, 2008, 05:22:15 PM »
I'm tired of you contantly provoking fights and pushing buttons saying things like "Even you Muman, a real layman, new to judaism, unscholarly, gullible, irrational" and "you have proven yourself to be dishonest, unable to reason,  unable to understand a thing".


you are dead wrong about Muman.  he is a good person.  please do not disparage him again.  you have been warned and anyone who engages in this behavior will be reported.  no fighting with each other.  we are going through the most difficult time of our lives.  thank you.

Offline Shlomo

  • Administrator
  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 5212
  • SAVE ISRAEL!
Re: The Kabbalah is not a fashion statement
« Reply #11 on: November 05, 2008, 06:06:03 PM »
You know I couldn't care less about Muman "insulting" me.. I wasn't "goaded" by it.

It's fairly obvious that I had said everything I had to say to muman in the one post.  I was clear in the post why it would only be one post where I responded to him.. It's a sharp clash but a brief one.   

Muman made one post on the subject, initiating dialogue with me, and we know that doesn't work.   I responded since it's a different subject.  And it's quite obvious that I said all I had to say to him on the matter in the one post.

He responded but I had nothing more to say, and didn't reply. Incase it wasn't obvious.

But instead of PMing your concerns that this would be a long argument, and instead of using sense, people continue..

You are all actually exasperating the problem. It was already over AFTER others started posting for calm. 

So my suggestion here is that people stop making repeated postings calling for calm. It is actually destroying "calm" and exasperating problems.

He initiated a dialogue with me.. I responded due to the subject matter. That was it. 1 post of mine and I had nothing more to say. So it was OVER.

And for the record, I didn't call zachor "stupid".

So don't jump in after 1 reply as if you are preventing a long 3 page argument. It wasn't ever going to happen.   Though you might make it a 3 page thread on calling for calm.

q_q_,

Why do you have to defend yourself so aggressively? What is it you have to prove and to whom?

Do you want to know what people think when they see you calling people "ignorant", "unintelligent", or any demeaning word to anyone? They see emotion. They see someone who is unhappy and angry. It's hard for them not to think "who is this arrogant and pompous guy who calls people idiots all the time? Who does he think HE is?" and then they lose respect. That's human nature and people make these assumptions quickly. You don't NEED to respond in this manner, you WANT to. It's a WANT... not a NEED and that's all it is.

Logic would say that you care enough about people to know they are human and that everyone is different from you . Some know less about one thing and more than you on another. Logic would say you have control of your temper and care about the success of our forum over petty insults that mean nothing. Logic would tell you that people will disagree sometimes or say the wrong thing sometimes and that it's actually ok. Logic wouldn't pick fights... only pride, emotion, and ego with something to prove does.

It tells people non-verbally that you are insecure and need to defend yourself all the time regardless of whether it's true or not. No one likes a defensive person. It pushes people away and exasperates the problem. This is one of the reasons that the Torah tells us not to behave like this. We aren't supposed to be arrogant, cruel, or rude. It reminds me of something Rabbi Kahane use to quote from the Talmud: "Those that are kind to the cruel will eventually be cruel to the kind." I'm sorry, but even though I know you are a good Jew, your comments have been cruel.

You owe muman an apology. What you did was wrong. And it makes no difference if he did wrong... YOU are responsible for YOUR behavior and he is responsible for his. I have talked to him.

Now, please... let this rest and do not post when you are angry.
"In the final analysis, for the believer there are no questions, and for the non-believer there are no answers." -Chofetz Chaim

Offline Daleksfearme

  • Pro JTFer
  • *****
  • Posts: 519
  • What is, What was, What could be. thats what I see
Re: The Kabbalah is not a fashion statement
« Reply #12 on: November 15, 2008, 05:34:10 PM »
A while back I attended an open house at the New York Kabbalah Center. In some ways this seemed almost more offensive than celebs that claim to be Kabbalists.

After only a very short introduction, anyone could simply purchase the entire text to bring home. The staff at the Center seem to have been told to push buying the texts even over attending more classes.  With no oversight or background, how can anyone even begin to understand such a complex document? I think that this is one of the primary reasons why there are so many misconceptions about the Jewish Faith.
"You must not have looked in the new dictionary for the word Genocide, Because Right next to it is a picture of me with a capton that reads...over my dead body!"

The Doctor

Offline q_q_

  • Ultimate JTFer
  • *******
  • Posts: 3819
Re: The Kabbalah is not a fashion statement
« Reply #13 on: November 15, 2008, 05:46:10 PM »
A while back I attended an open house at the New York Kabbalah Center. In some ways this seemed almost more offensive than celebs that claim to be Kabbalists.

After only a very short introduction, anyone could simply purchase the entire text to bring home. The staff at the Center seem to have been told to push buying the texts even over attending more classes.  With no oversight or background, how can anyone even begin to understand such a complex document? I think that this is one of the primary reasons why there are so many misconceptions about the Jewish Faith.

You've misunderstood the nature of reality.

The place you went to is a cult like place to get money from people. So they sell the Zohar for lots of $$$$$. I heard that one of the things they tell people is that if they just scan over the hebrew words with their eyes they get blessed.

Most people that have misconceptions of some kind about judaism, don't have it from sitting at home trying to read a "complex document" they got from the "kabbalah center"

Offline Daleksfearme

  • Pro JTFer
  • *****
  • Posts: 519
  • What is, What was, What could be. thats what I see
Re: The Kabbalah is not a fashion statement
« Reply #14 on: November 16, 2008, 12:56:25 AM »
Your absolutely correct that center is a cult, and they did say that simply by having the texts in your home would lead to am improved life.

I think we are pretty much saying the same thing overall in that regard, I just truly amazes me how many misconceptions there really are.
"You must not have looked in the new dictionary for the word Genocide, Because Right next to it is a picture of me with a capton that reads...over my dead body!"

The Doctor

Offline Tzvi Ben Roshel1

  • Ultimate JTFer
  • *******
  • Posts: 3006
Re: The Kabbalah is not a fashion statement
« Reply #15 on: November 17, 2008, 07:51:43 PM »
We see celebrities like Madonna taking up Kabbalah and I think it's disgusting.  First of all, even in Eastern Europe, where Kabbalah was practiced most by religious Jews, people were told to first learn Torah and to learn it well before even considering going on this mystical path.  Usually, Jews waited until they were about 40 years of age, so that they had a good grounding in Talmud/Torah.  Without this good grounding, Kabbalah can be misused and misinterpreted, and that is dangerous.

I personally, have made no immediate plans to study Kabbalah because there is still too much that I need to know about Torah, and I am 35 years old.

I find it offensive that celebrities have begun studies in Kabbalah, when they are not even Jewish, nor are they interested in Judaism.  They just like mysticism.  I wish they would take up voodoo instead.

  It's definitly a mixture. Their is much good in Real Kabbalah, but at the same time one can be mislead and/or learn it the wrong way or learn from the wrong person.
  As people as concerned (before anything else), if one is going to see a Mekubal for example, the first thing they should check is if he is making $, or asking $. If yes, then better not to step in. Their are other things to check, but the firt one is to see what is the motivation- is it $ or is it for Hessed (kindness to other's). Then ask or find out who their Rav is and what tradition they go back to.
 
   On the other hand besides all the fake one's. Their is a lot of wisdom, truth and the Awe of G-d that one can recieve (meKabbal) from Kabbalah, and it's teachings. Brings a person much closer to Hase-m.
 In a way it is like fire, one can be burned if not dealt with properly, but if one knows how to use it, it can be a great tool (In order to recieve a greater Awe or awareness of G-d, and get closer to the Holy One Blessed Be He).
The Academy of Elijah taught, whoever studies the laws (of the Torah) every day, (he) is guaranteed to have a share in the World to Come.

‏119:139 צִמְּתַתְנִי קִנְאָתִי כִּישָׁכְחוּ דְבָרֶיךָ צָרָי
My zeal incenses me, for my adversaries have forgotten Your words.
‏119:141 צָעִיר אָנֹכִי וְנִבְזֶה פִּקֻּדֶיךָ, לֹא שָׁכָחְתִּי.
 I am young and despised; I have not forgotten Your precepts.

" A fool does not realize, and an unwise person does not understand this (i.e. the following:) When the wicked bloom like grass, and the evildoers blossom (i.e. when they seem extremly successful), it is to destroy them forever (i.e. they are rewarded for their few good deeds in this World, and they will have no portion in the World to Come!)

Please visit: (The Greatest lectures on Earth).
http://torahanytime.com/
http://www.torahanytime.com/Rabbi/Yossi_Mizrachi/
http://www.torahanytime.com/Rabbi/Zecharia_Wallerstein/

Offline muman613

  • Platinum JTF Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 29958
  • All souls praise Hashem, Hallelukah!
    • muman613 Torah Wisdom
Re: The Kabbalah is not a fashion statement
« Reply #16 on: November 17, 2008, 09:00:08 PM »

<snip>

   On the other hand besides all the fake one's. Their is a lot of wisdom, truth and the Awe of G-d that one can recieve (meKabbal) from Kabbalah, and it's teachings. Brings a person much closer to Hase-m.
 In a way it is like fire, one can be burned if not dealt with properly, but if one knows how to use it, it can be a great tool (In order to recieve a greater Awe or awareness of G-d, and get closer to the Holy One Blessed Be He).

Shalom Tzvi,

What you said reminds me of the Pirkie Avos Mishnah 2:10 which reads:
Quote
...
They would each say three things:

Rabbi Eliezer would say: The honor of your fellow should be as precious to you as your own, and do not be easy to anger. Repent one day before your death.** Warm yourself by the fire of the sages, but be beware lest you be burned by its embers; for their bite is the bite of a fox, their sting is the sting of a scorpion, their hiss is the hiss a serpent, and all their words are like fiery coals.

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Tzvi Ben Roshel1

  • Ultimate JTFer
  • *******
  • Posts: 3006
Re: The Kabbalah is not a fashion statement
« Reply #17 on: November 17, 2008, 09:55:03 PM »
Another thing I would like to add. Kabbalah is great, but people should understand it at the proper way. I was discussing today with a group of people different ideas, including Jewish meditiation. What the Rav said was basically that it has a lot to do with imagination- (dont think of it as something small by the way). The point is that through Believing that by doing something certainly, it affects creation and everything by believing that is what happens (it's not everything but its a great influence.) For example if by raising the hands after washing them for eating bread, you believe that by raising the hands and making the blessing you are bringing Kedusha down, then by believing it, it happens. Or by other things for example the Kavanot of eating bread (by dipping into salt by 3 times, and thinking about Mazla- first dip for wife and children, then easy parnasa, and long meaningful life) By having these thoughts or Kavanot, one influences the way their life become's simply by the thoughts. 
  BUT again this is problematic IF you take it the wrong way, by only living in that "reality" and not at the same time not living at this reality. The point of all these things is that you are in a way at the moment stepping aside and going into "that" reality, the point is to then bring that reality into THIS reality and elevate This reality and this world.
  - It's basically about the proper balance and applying things at the right time and place. It's the double-Edged sword, you gotta use it correctly, use the spirituality to elevate the physicallity, and live properly in this world by doing what needs to be done (it's also recognizing reality, and going by the rules set up by G-d- or the rules of nature).
The Academy of Elijah taught, whoever studies the laws (of the Torah) every day, (he) is guaranteed to have a share in the World to Come.

‏119:139 צִמְּתַתְנִי קִנְאָתִי כִּישָׁכְחוּ דְבָרֶיךָ צָרָי
My zeal incenses me, for my adversaries have forgotten Your words.
‏119:141 צָעִיר אָנֹכִי וְנִבְזֶה פִּקֻּדֶיךָ, לֹא שָׁכָחְתִּי.
 I am young and despised; I have not forgotten Your precepts.

" A fool does not realize, and an unwise person does not understand this (i.e. the following:) When the wicked bloom like grass, and the evildoers blossom (i.e. when they seem extremly successful), it is to destroy them forever (i.e. they are rewarded for their few good deeds in this World, and they will have no portion in the World to Come!)

Please visit: (The Greatest lectures on Earth).
http://torahanytime.com/
http://www.torahanytime.com/Rabbi/Yossi_Mizrachi/
http://www.torahanytime.com/Rabbi/Zecharia_Wallerstein/

Offline Tzvi Ben Roshel1

  • Ultimate JTFer
  • *******
  • Posts: 3006
Re: The Kabbalah is not a fashion statement
« Reply #18 on: November 23, 2008, 02:18:29 PM »
An article I came across-

BS`D
THE STUDY OF THE ZOHAR
HA KADDOSH
BULLETIN 40
“Because of this work, the Book of the Zohar, [the Jews]
will be redeemed from exile” Zohar ha Kaddosh (3, 124b)
Our Great rabbis through all generations, taught that the complete
redemption depends precisely on the study of the Zohar ha Kaddosh. But it is
here that the Yetzer ha Ra found a great help in confusing people by telling
them: “If you don’t understand what you are reading in the Zohar ha Kaddosh,
you have no right to occupy yourselves with it”
And this is a great mistake that causes the redemption to be delayed for all
the Kabbalists have written that reading the Sefer ha Zohar and the Tikkunim,
with no understanding whatsoever, only saying it without knowing what one
says, effects a great Tikkun in the higher worlds, purifies and illuminates the
soul of man and brings the redemption closer. And thus wrote Rabbi Moshe
Zachuta ZTKL: “Fill your heart with the Zohar reading it and studying it. To
what does this compare? To a sick person that drinks a remedy which will be
beneficial to him even if he doesn’t know how it cures him”
Therefore every Jew should awaken to the study of the Zohar ha Kaddosh
without listening to fools who warn against it, for if all the wise men
recommended studying the Zohar ha kaddosh, how can one listen to someone
who does not know the benefit that studying the Zohar ha Kaddosh brings? If
all the great Kabbalists asserted that its study is beneficial even when one
doesn’t know what he is reading, why should you refrain from the great benefit
that it brings just because someone tells you with no basis whatsoever that
studying the Zohar ha kaddosh may be harmful to you? Or that you first need
to know all the Talmud? Or that you should be 40 years of age in order to begin
studying the Zohar ha Kaddosh?
This is a partial list of all the Tzaddikim and Gedolim who encourage the
studying of the Zohar ha Kaddosh even when you do not understand what you
are saying:
http://israel613.com/books/KKE_ZOHAR40.pdf
The Academy of Elijah taught, whoever studies the laws (of the Torah) every day, (he) is guaranteed to have a share in the World to Come.

‏119:139 צִמְּתַתְנִי קִנְאָתִי כִּישָׁכְחוּ דְבָרֶיךָ צָרָי
My zeal incenses me, for my adversaries have forgotten Your words.
‏119:141 צָעִיר אָנֹכִי וְנִבְזֶה פִּקֻּדֶיךָ, לֹא שָׁכָחְתִּי.
 I am young and despised; I have not forgotten Your precepts.

" A fool does not realize, and an unwise person does not understand this (i.e. the following:) When the wicked bloom like grass, and the evildoers blossom (i.e. when they seem extremly successful), it is to destroy them forever (i.e. they are rewarded for their few good deeds in this World, and they will have no portion in the World to Come!)

Please visit: (The Greatest lectures on Earth).
http://torahanytime.com/
http://www.torahanytime.com/Rabbi/Yossi_Mizrachi/
http://www.torahanytime.com/Rabbi/Zecharia_Wallerstein/

Offline q_q_

  • Ultimate JTFer
  • *******
  • Posts: 3819
Re: The Kabbalah is not a fashion statement
« Reply #19 on: November 23, 2008, 02:45:49 PM »
An article I came across-

BS`D
THE STUDY OF THE ZOHAR
HA KADDOSH
BULLETIN 40
“Because of this work, the Book of the Zohar, [the Jews]
will be redeemed from exile” Zohar ha Kaddosh (3, 124b)
Our Great rabbis through all generations, taught that the complete
redemption depends precisely on the study of the Zohar ha Kaddosh. But it is
here that the Yetzer ha Ra found a great help in confusing people by telling
them: “If you don’t understand what you are reading in the Zohar ha Kaddosh,
you have no right to occupy yourselves with it”
And this is a great mistake that causes the redemption to be delayed for all
the Kabbalists have written that reading the Sefer ha Zohar and the Tikkunim,
with no understanding whatsoever, only saying it without knowing what one
says, effects a great Tikkun in the higher worlds, purifies and illuminates the
soul of man and brings the redemption closer. And thus wrote Rabbi Moshe
Zachuta ZTKL: “Fill your heart with the Zohar reading it and studying it. To
what does this compare? To a sick person that drinks a remedy which will be
beneficial to him even if he doesn’t know how it cures him”
Therefore every Jew should awaken to the study of the Zohar ha Kaddosh
without listening to fools who warn against it, for if all the wise men
recommended studying the Zohar ha kaddosh, how can one listen to someone
who does not know the benefit that studying the Zohar ha Kaddosh brings? If
all the great Kabbalists asserted that its study is beneficial even when one
doesn’t know what he is reading, why should you refrain from the great benefit
that it brings just because someone tells you with no basis whatsoever that
studying the Zohar ha kaddosh may be harmful to you? Or that you first need
to know all the Talmud? Or that you should be 40 years of age in order to begin
studying the Zohar ha Kaddosh?
This is a partial list of all the Tzaddikim and Gedolim who encourage the
studying of the Zohar ha Kaddosh even when you do not understand what you
are saying:
http://israel613.com/books/KKE_ZOHAR40.pdf

You just included that link there completely brainlessly. It has a list of rabbis without quoting a single one of them

The first one in the list is Rabbi Shimon Bar Yochai. 

I'd like you to quote him!! 

It's even questioned whether he wrote the Zohar, but even if he did, where did he say there was no ban?

I doubt the Arizal said there was a ban lifted.  I recall reading that the Ari told Rav Yosef Kairo to not bother listening to his kabbalah shiurim because he will fall asleep, and his task is to codify halacha


Widespread mysticism led to shabbetai tzvi. He misled many jews he came across.. 

Fortunately ashkenazim were far away from him and weren't misled by him. Ashkenazim had jacob frank, but I don't think he really misled rabbis or lots of jews.  There is a great story that a rebbe sent his disciple to check out this shabbetai tzvi character. He came back and reported that he definitely was not the messiah.  Because he slept on his back, which is against halacha! And the messiah would never do that.

Ashkenazi rabbis are stricter regarding the study of kabbalah..  (they are stricter regarding most things though)

But sephardim are usually more careful than you suggest.



Chassidim are more into study of kabbalah. The lubavitcher rebbe said there was a ban, lifted..  So does a Rabbi Avraham Azulai..
I include 2 links below.

They differ on the dates. that the ban was lifted.
And so it shouldn't be suprising that you have many rabbis that hold to the idea that there is a ban and it still remains in existance.
These rabbis that hold this way are not "fools".

I doubt your article would be willing to name them and call them fools!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kabbalah
"According to the Zohar, the six hundredth year is also the sixth millennium, and the “windows of Heaven” are opening to allow knowledge and discovery to flow into our world at an unprecedented rate. To illustrate: the year 5600 (the six hundredth year of the sixth millennium) corresponds to the year 1840 in the Common-era. A cursory inspection of that period reveals that it was in the late 1800s that the Industrial Revolution began. This brought with it innovations in transportation, communication, and technology— which included enormous advances in communication, something ChaBaD has taken advantage of fully in the ongoing effort to educate. "


This one says there was a ban but lifted. It puts it a a different date.
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kabbalah

Ban against studying Kabbalah

"
The ban against studying Kabbalah was lifted by the efforts of the sixteenth century Kabbalist Rabbi Avraham Azulai (1570-1643).

I have found it written that all that has been decreed Above forbidding open involvement in the Wisdom of Truth [Kabbalah] was [only meant for] the limited time period until the year 5,250 (1490 C.E.). From then on after is called the "Last Generation", and what was forbidden is [now] allowed. And permission is granted to occupy ourselves in the [study of] Zohar. And from the year 5,300 (1540 C.E.) it is most desirable that the masses both those great and small [in Torah], should occupy themselves [in the study of Kabbalah], as it says in the Raya M'hemna [a section of the Zohar]. And because in this merit King Mashiach will come in the future – and not in any other merit – it is not proper to be discouraged [from the study of Kabbalah]. (Rabbi Avraham Azulai)[38]

The question however is whether the ban ever existed in the first place. Concerning the above quote by Avraham Azulai, it has found many versions in English, another is this

From the year 1540 and onward, the basic levels of Kabbalah must be taught publicly to everyone, young and old. Only through Kabbalah will we forever eliminate war, destruction, and man's inhumanity to his fellow man.[39]

The lines concerning 1490 are also missing from the Hebrew edition of Hesed L'Avraham, the source work that both of these quote from. Furthermore by Azulai's view the ban was lifted thirty years before his birth. A time that would have corresponded with Rabbi Haim Vital's publication of the teaching of Isaac Luria.

Furthermore Rabbi Moshe Isserles only understood there to be a minor restriction, in his words"One's belly must be full of meat and wine, discerning between the prohibited and the permitted."[40] He is supported by the Bier Hetiv, the Pithei Teshuva as well as the Vilna Gaon. The Vilna Gaon says,

There was never any ban or enactment restricting the study of the wisdom of Kabbalah. Any who says there is has never studied Kabblah, has never seen PaRDeS, and speaks as an ignoramous.[41]

Thus leaving the existence of a ban to be highly debated.
 "