indeed.. I read about the halacha that you get up first and kill him.. I learnt it from an article by rabbi binyamin kahane.. it mentioned rashi there too as you did.
I did ask some rabbis "if somebody comes to kill you, kill him first.. is that the halacha". They said yes. Afterwards I told them what the NK guy said, and they said the NK guy was right.. only kill as a last resort.. and if you can wound him then you do it.. So there was clearly some confusion..
but there is some halacha about a rodef and wounding him.
this is somewhat of a dump of info..
The following copy/paste discusses with it. it has stuff from the VBMtorah site
http://www.seliyahu.org.il/parasha/par5767/epar67019.rtf"
(the following is part of the link, including the text that follows!)
Extract from SHABBAT-B'SHABBATO, published by the Zomet Institute of Alon Shevut, Israel;
http://www.moreshet.co.il/zomet/index-e.htmlPOINT OF VIEW: The Laws of "Rodef" and "Mosser"
- by Rabbi Yisrael Rozen, Director of Zomet Institute
A "rodef" is one who pursues another with intent to kill. Media reports of "a decision that a person is a rodef" are using a concept that is completely undefined. The case of a rodef is something that happens all of a sudden, at the very moment when one person is actively pursuing another. It does not include a fear of future pursuit. The Rambam writes as follows: "If one pursues his colleague to kill him, even if the pursuer is a minor, all of Yisrael have been commanded to rescue the one who is being pursued, even if it means killing the pursuer." [Hilchot Rotze'ach 1:6]. The rescue of a potential victim by killing the pursuer also applies to a sin of prohibited sex: "This applies both to one who pursues somebody to kill him and to one who pursues a married woman in order to rape her, as is written, 'Just like when a man rises up against his friend and kills him, so is this matter' [Devarim 22:26]" [Hilchot Rotze'aich, 1:10]. The fact that the Rambam uses the word "commanded" means that there is an obligation to rescue somebody at all cost, even if the pursuer must be killed, not just that one is permitted to do so (see Rashi, Sanhedrin 73a). This law is derived from the verse, "if one spills the blood of another, his own blood shall be spilled" [Bereishit 9:6] - "The Torah tells us to save the blood of the victim by spilling the blood of the other one" [Sanhedrin 72b].
So far, we have discussed rescue by a third party, a bystander. The fact that a potential victim is permitted (or possibly even required) to rescue himself by killing the pursuer can be seen from the verse from this week's Torah portion quoted at the beginning of this article. For example, if the owner of a farm in Indeea (see our note above about censorship) discovers a burglar in the middle of the night, "the Torah teaches us... you should take the initiative and kill him." There is a very high degree of innovation in this law - the permission (demand?) for self defense at the expense of the life of the rodef is valid even if the one who is pursued might be able to "raise his hands" and give up or phone the police, thereby stopping the danger of being pursued. Even so, the Torah has taught us to "take the initiative!" In addition, a thief who comes "in secret" has stolen into the site for monetary gain, he is not physically pursuing the potential victim. However, the Torah has analyzed the mindset of both participants: the one who is pursued will defend himself and the thief will pull out a knife. The dynamics of an event is a halachic parameter which sometimes permits the spilling of blood!
The One Who is Pursued "Does Not Have to Check"
There is another very innovative idea, one that is quite reasonable. As is well known, the humanitarian approach of the halacha is that "if the rodef can be stopped by harming one of his limbs, such as... cutting off a hand or breaking his leg, or blinding him, that is what should be done" [Hilchot Rotze'ach 1:7]. This rule is also derived from a verse in the Torah. According to the Mishneh Lamelech, quoting the RIVASH, this law of "rescue by harming a limb" is only relevant for "a bystander" - but the potential victim himself "does not have to check this." As far as I can see, this can be derived from the laws of "a thief who comes in secret," because in general the victim could easily get out of the dangerous situation by giving up and then turning to his insurance carrier for compensation. But the reason for this innovative law is very simple: one who is in danger acts instinctively, and he should not be expected to base his actions on "careful analysis" and choice of priorities.
The consequence of this halachic differentiation between a bystander and the potential victim is that a soldier or a policeman who sees stones thrown at a car or directly at people is required by halacha to fire at the legs of the offenders. But the one who is being attacked "does not have to check" (all of this is in the mythical country of Indeea - see note). See my article in "Techumin," volume 10, page 76, "Self Defense at the Cost of the Life of the Pursuer".
It should be clear that it is impossible to define a concept of "a public rodef - pursuer" with respect to a leader who actively supports such an agenda as giving up land for political reasons. The only ones who might possibly come under a definition of "pursuing the entire community of Yisrael" are people who are in the midst of performing traitorous acts. Perhaps one example would be to participate in a conference of Holocaust deniers in Haman's court in the capital Shushan.
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Really though, if you read that carefully..
it has what looks like a contradiction.. and just resolves it by saying that one applies to the bystander and one to the victim(who it assumes can't wound the persuer)
So really it's saying it's the same rule..
nothing about running away there though..
the thief example certainly shows that you don't have to run away..
infact, that you are supposed to kill him.. persue him!
Here is another article.. it says some other stuff too.. but
it has some direct sounrces for the kill him first.
http://www.koltorah.org/ravj/14-10%20The%20Halacha%20of%20Rodef%20and%20the%20Rabin%20Shooting.htm"
The Halacha of Rodef is similar to the Halacha of Ba B'machteret that is presented in Shemot 22:1. The Torah in that Pasuk teaches that one may kill a thief who is tunneling into one's house since one may assume that the thief is armed and constitutes a danger to life. The Torah permits the householder to kill the thief in self-defense. Chazal (Sanhedrin 72a) phrase this rule accordingly: "If someone comes to kill you, act first and kill him." The Gemara (Sanhedrin 73a), in turn, presents the sources in the Torah that teach that one must kill someone who is attempting to kill another person. This rule applies not only to self-defense but also to defending the lives of others. Moreover, it also applies to someone who engages in sexual assault (Sanhedrin 73a). Thus, one must kill (if no other alternative is available) someone who is attempting to murder or rape. For a discussion of the subtle distinctions between the cases of Rodef and Ba B'machteret see my recently published (by TABC) Rebbe-Talmid commentary on Sanhedrin entitled Peninei Torah.
In the absence of a Sanhedrin sitting in proximity to the Beit Hamikdash, the Halacha does not permit a Beit Din to impose capital punishment. The rules of Rodef, however, apply even in the absence of a Sanhedrin (Rambam Hilchot Rotze'ach 1:6-13 and Shulchan Aruch Choshen Mishpat 425)
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I think these things certainly need some clarification.. But, I see nothing about running away.
the NK guy said a Rodef is when A is chasing B and B is running away. A is a rodef.
I don't see that anywhere..
Also, this article..
http://pages.ramaz.org/USFaculty/USJS/edresources/SchiowitzMasechet%20SanhedrinPerakim%2089/Sanhedrin%20Perek%208-%2006%20-%20Daf%2072b.pdfmentions the case Chaim brought up.. that when a foetus endangers the life of a mother, the foetus is a rodef, a persuer.. and can be removed to save the mother.
(interestingly, when the baby's head is out, then heaven has granted it life, and heaven is considered the persuer.. )
It may be that this case of rodef doesn't apply. But if it does.. then it's an example of a rodef where A is chasing B and B is not running away.. Or rather, A is endangering B's life, and B isn't running away. (fine, nowhere to run.. But it is a case of B not running away)
The thief case is better.. if that's about a rodef.. I guess it is.
Topic: Nuterei Katra (Read 1598 times)