Author Topic: Thank g-d that Rabin croaked.  (Read 3252 times)

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Offline muman613

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Re: Thank g-d that Rabin croaked.
« Reply #25 on: April 21, 2009, 04:34:09 PM »
Christians do not study the Torah. They study a greek translation. And besides they are missing over half of the Torah.
The comments weren't addressed to you, but an instigator in this thread. But for the record I will say:

1--we may not use the term Torah, but the Pentateuch is an integral part of the O.T., and therefore the Bible

2--the Septuagint is considered a very accurate translation, and was always validated by ancient Hellenic-Jewish rabbinic authorities (and by the way, some Christians do study the Tanach in its original Hebrew)

3--the point being made to Nadav is that Christians do use half the Torah, whether he likes it or not

It is not true that Septuagint translation is accurate. It is well known what many of the errors of translation are. The Jewish sages mourned the translation into greek because it allowed some of the greatest mistranslations which led to the creation of the false messianics. As a Jew I would vehemently disagree that your New Testament has any relation to our Holy Torah.

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

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Re: Thank g-d that Rabin croaked.
« Reply #26 on: April 21, 2009, 06:14:06 PM »
This discussion was about the O.T., not the N.T.

And at the time the Septuagint was a completely accepted translation for Hellenic Jews the world over. What has been ruled about it now is after the fact.

Offline Lisa

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Re: Thank g-d that Rabin croaked.
« Reply #27 on: April 21, 2009, 06:17:53 PM »
Guys, we'll have to agree to disagree on this.  So please don't fight. 

Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

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Re: Thank g-d that Rabin croaked.
« Reply #28 on: April 21, 2009, 06:30:28 PM »
Lisa, I am not fighting with Muman. I was responding to typical trolling comments by Nadav, whose name on Guzzy's forum is A Clockwork Orange.

All I will say is that the Tanach was translated into classical Greek by 70 of the world's most eminent Jewish rabbinical scholars some 200 years BCE. Does it have minor copyist errors in it? Yes, just as the earliest extant Hebrew manuscripts of the Tanach, and the extant Aramaic and Greek manuscripts of the Christian N.T., do. That does not mean that it was not always viewed as a perfectly acceptable translation in the ancient world.

Offline muman613

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Re: Thank g-d that Rabin croaked.
« Reply #29 on: April 21, 2009, 07:08:02 PM »
The Origin of the Septuagint : http://www.messiahtruth.com/lxx.html

http://ohr.edu/yhiy/article.php/1327

Quote
Greeks vs. Torah
by Rabbi Nota Schiller
The Greeks, the Midrash relates, darkened the eyes of the Jews with their decrees, saying to the Jews, "Write upon the horn of an ox that you have no portion in the G-d of Israel." What did the Greeks mean by this very cryptic decree? How does this decree epitomize their dark designs against the Jewish People?

Approximately 150 years before the Maccabees, a Hellenistic king in Alexandria ordered the translation of the Written Torah into Greek. In a sense, his need to become appraised of the Jewish world view and endow his massive Alexandrian library with Torah wisdom was a compliment to the Jewish People.

Miraculous events attended the translation: Each of the scholars summoned to Alexandria emerged from his private cubicle with an identical Greek translation.

Nevertheless, the translation of the seventy, the Septuagint, was a tragic moment for the Jewish People, a tragedy our Sages describe as "three days of darkness" which descended upon the world. What was the tragedy?

The Jewish People either exist as a separate entity or cease to exist. Anything mitigating or threatening our monopoly on Torah depreciates our ability to protect our uniqueness as a people. As soon as we share that monopoly with others, the Torah becomes merely another source of wisdom, another culture, another subject in the university catalogue. Ultimately we are to impact the world community, but only through maintaining the integrity of uniqueness will that impact come about.

One thing diminished the tragedy: Only the Written Torah was shared. The Oral Torah remained the exclusive property of the Jewish People, its transmission still necessitating the Teacher-Student relationship.

...
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

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Re: Thank g-d that Rabin croaked.
« Reply #30 on: April 21, 2009, 08:37:53 PM »
Are you saying that the 70 sages who translated the Tanach painstakingly into classical Greek were self-hating Jews whose mission was to spread Christianity? That cannot be possible as the translation predated the birth of Christ by as many as 300 years:

http://www.septuagint.net/

Quote from: Septuagint.net
Septuagint - What is It?
Septuagint (sometimes abbreviated LXX) is the name given to the Greek translation of the Jewish Scriptures. The Septuagint has its origin in Alexandria, Egypt and was translated between 300-200 BC. Widely used among Hellenistic Jews, this Greek translation was produced because many Jews spread throughout the empire were beginning to lose their Hebrew language. The process of translating the Hebrew to Greek also gave many non-Jews a glimpse into Judaism. According to an ancient document called the Letter of Aristeas, it is believed that 70 to 72 Jewish scholars were commissioned during the reign of Ptolemy Philadelphus to carry out the task of translation. The term “Septuagint” means seventy in Latin, and the text is so named to the credit of these 70 scholars.

Offline muman613

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Re: Thank g-d that Rabin croaked.
« Reply #31 on: April 21, 2009, 08:42:11 PM »
Are you saying that the 70 sages who translated the Tanach painstakingly into classical Greek were self-hating Jews whose mission was to spread Christianity? That cannot be possible as the translation predated the birth of Christ by as many as 300 years:

http://www.septuagint.net/

Quote from: Septuagint.net
Septuagint - What is It?
Septuagint (sometimes abbreviated LXX) is the name given to the Greek translation of the Jewish Scriptures. The Septuagint has its origin in Alexandria, Egypt and was translated between 300-200 B.C.E.. Widely used among Hellenistic Jews, this Greek translation was produced because many Jews spread throughout the empire were beginning to lose their Hebrew language. The process of translating the Hebrew to Greek also gave many non-Jews a glimpse into Judaism. According to an ancient document called the Letter of Aristeas, it is believed that 70 to 72 Jewish scholars were commissioned during the reign of Ptolemy Philadelphus to carry out the task of translation. The term “Septuagint” means seventy in Latin, and the text is so named to the credit of these 70 scholars.

According to Jewish tradition the date that the translation took place is marked as a fast day because of the calamity it caused to the Jewish people. Remember that Torah was given to the Jewish people as a gift and not as general knowledge. Once the Torah was translated it lead to things such as Christianity which was not good for the Jewish people causing much misfortune. It would have been much better if the translation never happened as the sages as the time recommended.
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

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Re: Thank g-d that Rabin croaked.
« Reply #32 on: April 21, 2009, 08:54:36 PM »
Here is a good article on this topic from Aish.com :

http://www.aish.com/literacy/concepts/Lost_in_Translation_The_Month_of_Tevet.asp

Lost in Translation: The Month of Tevet
by Rebbetzin Tzipporah Heller

Tevet is a time of return and redefinition.

Changes took place in the Hebrew month of Tevet that have cast a shadow throughout the course of Jewish history.

On the eighth of Tevet, the Torah's translation into Greek, ordered by Ptolemy, was completed. The Egyptian monarch was fully aware of how complicated the job would be. Ptolemy gathered 70 scholars to compose a translation using only the written text. He hoped that it would not only give the Greeks a literal understanding of the Five Books of Moses, but a vicarious peak at what God actually communicated to the Jews at Mount Sinai.

The resulting translation was considered a tragedy. Why? Is this inherent to all translations? Why should the truth of the Torah be inaccessible? In modern times the plethora of translations have been stupendous. The overwhelming ignorance of Jewish tradition and liturgy that I grew up with has been just about eliminated by ArtScroll prayer books and Stone chumashim (five books of Moses).

What's the difference between the Septuagint (the 70-man translation) and ArtScroll?

Ptolemy wanted to Hellenize the Torah. He wanted it in his library along with the other classics of his time. To him it was inconceivable that a God-given document and one written by man should be treated differently.

The goal of Torah is to present us with a way of life; one that will change us and take us to parts unknown -- Gods infinity. The purpose of other works is to give us greater insight into ourselves and into the world. One deals with human beings and their world, while the other deals with a world far beyond the limitations of human observation. The authors of today's translations want to let everyone experience Torah by making them bigger. Ptolemy wanted to give everyone access to Torah by dwarfing its scope to fit the limitations of the human mind.

It was a tragedy. In fact, our sages compared it to the sin of the Golden Calf. The Jews, who found the encounter at Sinai with an unknowable God to be overwhelming, made a god of their own once they thought Moses was no longer with them. It was a god that fit their already existent repertoire of religious symbolism. They made God small just when they had the opportunity to walk forward into the unknown with pure faith and transform themselves into a far greater people than they could have at any other time.

The ninth of Tevet marks the day of the death of Ezra and Nechemia, the spiritual leaders who brought the Jews back from the Babylonian exile to begin the process of rejuvenating the Jewish people. The Babylonian exile was the forced expulsion of the Jews from the homeland that they inhabited for 850 years to Babylon. They remained there for 70 years. During the course of this time, Persians conquered the Babylonians, and the Greeks, in turn, conquered the Persians.

It seemed from the outside that the trauma of expulsion plus the subtle forces of assimilation to the conqueror that represents success and victory doomed us to becoming an anonymous non-nation. Ezra and Nechemia reversed the process, and virtually breathed new life into our sense of nationhood. They were successful beyond anyone's wildest imagination. With the political help of Cyrus of Persia, the dream of return became a reality.

Unlike the present return to Israel, the return was not scarred by spiritual ambiguity. Ezra achieved what no leader (even Moses) had achieved in our entire history. He inspired his people to not only return to their land, but simultaneously to return to God. It was a new era indeed. But with their death, the era came to an end, and the next step forward was far more hesitant than it was in their lifetimes. The entire Second Temple period was one in which slow erosion of our identity took place. There were golden moments and unforgettable personalities. Nonetheless, something was missing: the absolute clarity of purpose that Ezra brought us.

The cliche is that no one is irreplaceable. It's a lie. In fact, the opposite is true: No one is at all replaceable. Nothing brings that fact home more than the decline that took place so soon after the death of the leaders.

On the tenth of Tevet, we had the dubious distinction of a "new beginning" that still has an imprint on our national identity. It was the day in which the forces that lead to exile began to concretize, leading to diaspora after diaspora. So many Jews define their relationship to their Judaism through the continuum of tragedies that culminated with the Holocaust. We visit the concentration camps, as we close our eyes after reading or watching still another unspeakable horror. Some of us have seen their sterile remains in Europe.

The saga of persecution began on the tenth of Tevet. What exactly happened? Jerusalem was surrounded by the Babylonian forces (that we discussed previously in reference to the ninth of Tevet) surrounded Jerusalem and began a three-year siege that ended with the destruction of the Temple and the beginning of the exile that has never quite ended. Even during the time of Ezra, which was the closest we came to national redemption, the majority of Jews never quite made it back home. We found life in Babylon, Persia, Greece et al to be comfortable, acceptable and worst of all, normal.

The sages instituted a fast on the tenth of Tevet. The fast is meant to be a time to question whether we should ride through history as passive travelers looking out the window as we are driven to parts unknown, or whether we should do something to determine which way we are headed. Today, more than ever, all the doors are open. We can chose the path of letting others define who we are and then force feed it back to us. For many people liberalism and Judaism have become synonymous. The reason for this turn of events is that some parts of the Torah fit into the Neo-Grecian pattern of Western thought better than others. Judaism has been "translated" again and again since the Septuagint to mean whatever is easiest and most acceptable to Ptolemy's successors.

Another path we can choose is one of moral decay that narrows the dividing line between us and those who wish to destroy us. This path led to the destruction of both Temples, the expulsion from our land, and the irrational hatred that we experience when the nations turn against us when we become too much of what they are.

There is a third possibility. We can choose to renew our commitment to our own heritage and follow the path set by Ezra and Nechemia.

Tevet is a time of return and redefinition. May we use the power of the month to discover who we really are and who we really want to be. This is the key to personal redemption, which is in turn the key to national redemption.
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Lisa

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Re: Thank g-d that Rabin croaked.
« Reply #33 on: April 21, 2009, 09:59:16 PM »
You guys, this thread was supposed to be about how evil the late Yitzkhak Rabin was, something we ALL agree on.  Now I realize that some of our Jewish members don't like it when our non-Jewish members throw around Hebrew expressions, in this case the use of Erev Rav.  Still I don't think we should be arguing about whose Bible is more accurate.  Like I wrote earlier, I think we'll have to agree to disagree.  Or at least we can get back on the topic of what a disaster Rabin was. 

Offline muman613

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Re: Thank g-d that Rabin croaked.
« Reply #34 on: April 21, 2009, 11:13:28 PM »
You guys, this thread was supposed to be about how evil the late Yitzkhak Rabin was, something we ALL agree on.  Now I realize that some of our Jewish members don't like it when our non-Jewish members throw around Hebrew expressions, in this case the use of Erev Rav.  Still I don't think we should be arguing about whose Bible is more accurate.  Like I wrote earlier, I think we'll have to agree to disagree.  Or at least we can get back on the topic of what a disaster Rabin was. 

Now that is a good idea... I agree that Rabin was not very good for the Jewish people. He is not missed by me...
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline DownwithIslam

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Re: Thank g-d that Rabin croaked.
« Reply #35 on: April 21, 2009, 11:51:11 PM »
You guys, this thread was supposed to be about how evil the late Yitzkhak Rabin was, something we ALL agree on.  Now I realize that some of our Jewish members don't like it when our non-Jewish members throw around Hebrew expressions, in this case the use of Erev Rav.  Still I don't think we should be arguing about whose Bible is more accurate.  Like I wrote earlier, I think we'll have to agree to disagree.  Or at least we can get back on the topic of what a disaster Rabin was. 

Now that is a good idea... I agree that Rabin was not very good for the Jewish people. He is not missed by me...


I remember awhile back during an old jtf broadcast, Chaim was talking about how Yitzchak Rabin gave an interview on Israeli TV about his actions against the heroic jews on the altelena. Rabin the nazi was bragging about how he opened fire on them and he proceeded to use the "f word" saying he f&*ked  the jews on the ship. Their is nothing more I can say about Rabin other than I hope he is roasting in the most severe gehenom.
I am urinating on a Koran.

Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

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Re: Thank g-d that Rabin croaked.
« Reply #36 on: April 22, 2009, 12:59:33 AM »
I don't think you need to worry about that DownwithIslam.

Offline DownwithIslam

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Re: Thank g-d that Rabin croaked.
« Reply #37 on: April 22, 2009, 02:19:04 AM »
I don't think you need to worry about that DownwithIslam.
I think you are right.
I am urinating on a Koran.