Author Topic: Vatican making land grab in Israel - JUST SAY NO!  (Read 4360 times)

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Offline muman613

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Vatican making land grab in Israel - JUST SAY NO!
« on: April 26, 2009, 11:15:11 AM »
This is the true reason the Pope is travelling to Israel. He is attempting to make Israel cede land in Israel to the Church. I am ADAMANTLY AGAINST this and I would have never invited this pope into the holy land. This is a Jew-hating pope and he has the gall to come to Israel and ask for Mount Zion!?!?! This is a lot of chutzpah and it flies SMACK IN THE FACE of Hashem and all that Judaism stands for. Israel should not be giving up its GOD GIVEN land to the nations, including the idolatrous church.

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/131032

"
Israel’s Control of Mt. Zion in Danger
Iyar 2, 5769, 26 April 09 12:00
by Hillel Fendel

(IsraelNN.com) Ten-year-long negotiations between Israel and the Vatican appear to be drawing to a close, with concerns rising that Israel will cede control of the building housing King David’s Tomb in Jerusalem.

The Bilateral Permanent Working Commission – a team of negotiators representing Israel and the Vatican – released an upbeat press release at the end of last week, speaking of "meaningful progress," "great cordiality," and a mutual commitment to reaching a final agreement "as soon as possible.”

Tellingly, a plenary meeting has been announced for this Thursday, April 30, at the Foreign Ministry. The meeting will be chaired by the two states’ deputy foreign ministers, Danny Ayalon and Monsignor Pietro Parolin. It is widely believed that the agreement will be signed then.

Church Demands Parts of Mt. Zion
The two states have been negotiating a treaty since March 1999 on matters having to do with Church-owned or Church-claimed property in Israel. Among the most significant issue under negotiations is the Vatican’s demand for the Last Supper room, located on the second floor of the ancient Mt. Zion building that also houses the tombs of Kings David, Solomon, and Hezekiah.

In addition, the Vatican is claiming areas around Lake Kinneret, as well as in Caesaria and Jerusalem.

Hints and implications in the Vatican and Catholic press have long indicated that the negotiations are expected to end successfully, from the Catholic vantage point, in time for Pope Benedict’s visit to Israel two weeks from now.

“This is a shame and a disgrace of unequalled proportions,” said Daisy J. Stern, M.D., who has been leading an information campaign on the topic. “Giving away these important areas has no Halakhic [Jewish legal] validity, of course, but signing it away will definitely make it very difficult to ever reclaim them.”

Mt. Zion - International Center for Catholics?
At present, since shortly after the Six-Day War in 1967, the Diaspora Yeshiva has run the Mt. Zion compound, on which it is located, and warns of the catastrophic implications for Israel and the Jewish People if the deal goes through.

The director of the yeshiva explained that if the Catholic Church receives control of the area, just a few hundred yards from the Temple Mount and adjacent to the Old City walls, it will turn it into "the international center for Catholics all around the world, and if the pope just gives the word, Christians will be flocking over here en masse."

"This is an enormous issue that is being pushed through without any public debate whatsoever," he said.

Vatican Signs Agreement with Arab League
Dr. Stern notes that though there had been reports that an agreement might be signed last week, “nothing happened – except that while they [the Vatican representatives] were talking with Israel, they signed an agreement with the Arab League. This is very worrisome. There are no details on the agreement with the Arab League, except that it aims to promote ‘peace, security and stability.’ Who knows what that really means? Are they dividing up the spoils of the future Vatican agreement with Israel – or perhaps they are preparing for the next Arab war with Israel? We don’t know.”

“This new agreement with the Arab League renders the Vatican, most gravely, an interested party in the Israeli-Arab dispute,” said Prof. Hillel Weiss of Bar Ilan University, who has been closely following the issue.

Of further concern is the fact that Israel is investing some 6 million shekels in improvements and renovations to various sites in preparation for the Papal visit.  Work at the Last Supper room has been underway for some time.

Blueprint of an Agreement
A Foreign Ministry official confirmed in 2005 that a “blueprint of a possible agreement with the Vatican has been received.”  The proposed contract, as Arutz-7 reported at the time, read as follows:

"The State of Israel hands over to the Holy See the use of the Cenacle [the room of the event known as the Last Supper, above King David's tomb - ed.], of the access path to it, and of the spaces adjacent to it... It is the Holy See's intention to inform the Bishops - and through them the world's Priests - that the Catholic Church has been given the use of the Cenacle, inviting them to visit the Holy Place together with their faithful... The Holy See hands over this use of the Cenacle to the Custody of the Holy Land [which acts on behalf of the Holy See]... [which] will keep the Cenacle open from 6 AM to 8 AM for the celebration of the Holy Mass... Official liturgical celebrations of non-Catholic Churches can take place only upon prior written permission by the Custody of the Holy Land."

The proposed agreement also stipulated that the Holy See will preserve the historic character of the site and keep it open to pilgrims and tourists, and that Israel will provide for the safety of the site. The Foreign Ministry official said at the time that “Israel is not prepared to relinquish its jurisdiction over this area.” The world will find out later this week whether this position is still valid.

Rabbi Mordechai Goldstein, who founded and still runs the Diaspora Yeshiva, officially known as Yeshiva Toras Yisrael, told Arutz-7 in the past that "according to their bible, the Land is to return to the Christians, and 144,000 Jews are to return to Mt. Zion. Their plan is for them to take control of the site, and then to announce that they are holding a mass reenactment of the Last Supper, with [all types of religious rituals], and to invite millions of Christians to come to Jerusalem and celebrate." Rabbi Goldstein said that this means much tourism money for Israel, and that someone in the Israeli government is apparently very interested in making this happen.                 

The King David's Tomb complex, some 100,000 square feet, is "certainly one of the holiest spots in the Land of Israel," a yeshiva source said. "David, Solomon and others kings of Judea are said to be buried here. We've already given away the Temple Mount and the Machpelah Cave, except for here and there when we're allowed in; now they want to give Mt. Zion away as well? For thousands of years, this area was almost always totally closed off to Jews. G-d gave it back to us in 1948, but parts of it were still in range and sight of Jordanian snipers and were not in full use. After 1967, Rabbi Goldstein founded the Diaspora Yeshiva here - and it became an island of holiness, the first yeshiva for baalei teshuvah [newly religious] in Israel; we were there day and night learning Torah. Rabbi Goldstein was almost prophetic in establishing this yeshiva at that time at that spot; destiny from above intertwined him with Mt. Zion."                       

Dr. Stern and others are attempting to organize a public protest, beginning with an email and fax  campaign to Deputy Foreign Minister Ayalon, who will represent Israel at the Thursday meeting.  The Director-General of the Foreign Ministry can be emailed at [email protected], and the fax number is 02-5303704 (from abroad, replace leading 0 with 972).
"
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Rubystars

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Re: Vatican making land grab in Israel - JUST SAY NO!
« Reply #1 on: April 26, 2009, 11:22:46 AM »
This is horrible. Israel belongs to the Jewish people.

Moshe92

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Re: Vatican making land grab in Israel - JUST SAY NO!
« Reply #2 on: April 26, 2009, 11:27:37 AM »
Any people in the Israeli government who want to give land to the church so there will be more tourism revenue are greedy traitors.

Offline RationalThought110

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Re: Vatican making land grab in Israel - JUST SAY NO!
« Reply #3 on: April 26, 2009, 12:26:12 PM »
Any people in the Israeli government who want to give land to the church so there will be more tourism revenue are greedy traitors.

Wasn't it said that Shimon Peres has a relationship with the Vatican and that Peres has been trying to harm Israel during the past 10-15 years? 

Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

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Re: Vatican making land grab in Israel - JUST SAY NO!
« Reply #4 on: April 26, 2009, 01:01:09 PM »
Hello--who says the Catholic Church should own all of these Christian holy sites? No offense to our Catholic members, but the RCC is just one out of thousands of Christian denominations that have an equal connection to the Holy Land and the places where Jesus lived and walked. Why shouldn't the Orthodox, Baptists, Pentecostals, Calvary Chapel, etc. own these holy sites?*


*Obviously I don't really mean that; this is all sacred Israeli land. But I think I have a valid point.

Offline momofsixbabes

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Re: Vatican making land grab in Israel - JUST SAY NO!
« Reply #5 on: April 26, 2009, 04:01:31 PM »
I tried to warn y'all.  The pope wants Jerusalem. The vatican is accustomed to getting what they want.

Offline cjd

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Re: Vatican making land grab in Israel - JUST SAY NO!
« Reply #6 on: April 26, 2009, 07:08:10 PM »
I tried to warn y'all.  The pope wants Jerusalem. The vatican is accustomed to getting what they want.
The words the Vatican should hear is........... NO DEAL....NO DEAL.....NOOOO DEAL Its just that simple. Why would Israel agree to this but then again I am under the impression that Israel even relinquished control of the Temple Mount after the 67 war. Call me crazy but I just don't understand Israel's policies when it comes to this sort of thing. To me it seems they are looking at the tourist dollar aspect of the thing.
He who overlooks one crime invites the commission of another.        Syrus.

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Offline Americanhero1

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Re: Vatican making land grab in Israel - JUST SAY NO!
« Reply #7 on: April 26, 2009, 07:21:36 PM »
I tried to warn y'all.  The pope wants Jerusalem. The vatican is accustomed to getting what they want.

Of course you did you warned people that us Catholics are evil anti Christian Christians
Did you learn that in Public school?

Offline nessuno

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Re: Vatican making land grab in Israel - JUST SAY NO!
« Reply #8 on: April 26, 2009, 07:26:08 PM »
I tried to warn y'all.  The pope wants Jerusalem. The vatican is accustomed to getting what they want.

Of course you did you warned people that us Catholics are evil anti Christian Christians
Did you learn that in Public school?
Remember!  You are not a Christian.  You are Catholic.  That was explained to you the other day.  Big difference!
P.S. I learned to live and respect people of different faiths in the evil public school, even in the evil parochial school.  She couldn't have learned that there.
Be very CAREFUL of people whose WORDS don't match their ACTIONS.

Offline WestCoastJTF

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Re: Vatican making land grab in Israel - JUST SAY NO!
« Reply #9 on: April 26, 2009, 08:29:41 PM »
I tried to warn y'all.  The pope wants Jerusalem. The vatican is accustomed to getting what they want.

Of course you did you warned people that us Catholics are evil anti Christian Christians
Did you learn that in Public school?
I'm a Catholic and we Catholics are Christians.  Period.


Offline muman613

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Re: Vatican making land grab in Israel - JUST SAY NO!
« Reply #10 on: April 26, 2009, 08:39:54 PM »
Mellow out everyone. This is not an invitation to mock Catholics. As always I wish the benefit of the doubt on every JTF member. The issue is that Israel must be controlled by the Jewish people or else it ceases to be Zion, the holy place where Hashems presence once rested. I have no idea about Catholic theology but I should hope that it considers Israel Jewish land. If this is not the case then the church elders should be taught the reason it is, it is in the Torah, and unless the church would like to fight against G-d himself, they should relent concerning Israel and holy site sovereignty. All those who follow this church should speak up against the obvious wrong of taking Jewish land and claiming it for the vatican.

This would be the wisest path for the church, and for Israel and all Jews.

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Americanhero1

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Re: Vatican making land grab in Israel - JUST SAY NO!
« Reply #11 on: April 26, 2009, 09:14:08 PM »
I tried to warn y'all.  The pope wants Jerusalem. The vatican is accustomed to getting what they want.

Of course you did you warned people that us Catholics are evil anti Christian Christians
Did you learn that in Public school?
I'm a Catholic and we Catholics are Christians.  Period.



So am I

Offline nessuno

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Re: Vatican making land grab in Israel - JUST SAY NO!
« Reply #12 on: April 26, 2009, 09:26:09 PM »
I tried to warn y'all.  The pope wants Jerusalem. The vatican is accustomed to getting what they want.

Of course you did you warned people that us Catholics are evil anti Christian Christians
Did you learn that in Public school?
I'm a Catholic and we Catholics are Christians.  Period.



So am I
Congratulations on 6,000 posts, Americanhero.
Be very CAREFUL of people whose WORDS don't match their ACTIONS.

Offline Americanhero1

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Re: Vatican making land grab in Israel - JUST SAY NO!
« Reply #13 on: April 26, 2009, 09:27:12 PM »
I tried to warn y'all.  The pope wants Jerusalem. The vatican is accustomed to getting what they want.

Of course you did you warned people that us Catholics are evil anti Christian Christians
Did you learn that in Public school?
I'm a Catholic and we Catholics are Christians.  Period.



So am I
Congratulations on 6,000 posts, Americanhero.

Thank you Bullcat

Offline nessuno

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Re: Vatican making land grab in Israel - JUST SAY NO!
« Reply #14 on: April 26, 2009, 09:27:53 PM »
I tried to warn y'all.  The pope wants Jerusalem. The vatican is accustomed to getting what they want.

Of course you did you warned people that us Catholics are evil anti Christian Christians
Did you learn that in Public school?
I'm a Catholic and we Catholics are Christians.  Period.


You are exactly right.  Period.  Exclamation point!
Be very CAREFUL of people whose WORDS don't match their ACTIONS.

Offline nessuno

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Re: Vatican making land grab in Israel - JUST SAY NO!
« Reply #15 on: April 26, 2009, 09:30:06 PM »
I tried to warn y'all.  The pope wants Jerusalem. The vatican is accustomed to getting what they want.

Of course you did you warned people that us Catholics are evil anti Christian Christians
Did you learn that in Public school?
I'm a Catholic and we Catholics are Christians.  Period.



So am I
Congratulations on 6,000 posts, Americanhero.

Thank you Bullcat
You're welcome.  6,000 great posts.  That is some feat.  ;D
Be very CAREFUL of people whose WORDS don't match their ACTIONS.

Offline nessuno

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Re: Vatican making land grab in Israel - JUST SAY NO!
« Reply #16 on: April 26, 2009, 09:53:50 PM »
How about they just take out all the Last Supper-related artifacts and haul them to Italy.  And they could set up kiosks in Italian malls where they could sell bottled water and sand from Lake Kinneret, and put some in museums.  And the Pope could have his own special stash that he could use to throw on people for blessing purposes.  Christians could have the option of having their sins either sprinkled or sand-blasted away.
Sprinkled or sand blasted away.   :o  If only it were that easy, Dan ben Noah. I'd be all for it.
Be very CAREFUL of people whose WORDS don't match their ACTIONS.

Offline cjd

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Re: Vatican making land grab in Israel - JUST SAY NO!
« Reply #17 on: April 26, 2009, 10:04:21 PM »
Great work Americanhero 6000 great posts and also many very good topic starters. :clap:

I agree with you 100% muman. Israel should retain control of all its land. I could see the Vatican wanting access to certain places in Jerusalem however Israel giving up control of any land to the Vatican or anyone else is crazy. Access is a lot different then control and even then Israel should do whats best for its own survival. Israel must realize that it can't go on ceding land and expect to have a secure condition for the remainder of the country for long. The should say no to the Vatican and no to anyone else who comes to them with crazy land surrender requests. If Israel would have retained the land gains of the 67 war they would be in a far better position today. As I said sometimes saying no in the first beginning is the best policy.
He who overlooks one crime invites the commission of another.        Syrus.

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Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

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Re: Vatican making land grab in Israel - JUST SAY NO!
« Reply #18 on: April 27, 2009, 12:12:46 AM »
Why the Israeli people don't have a revolution I cannot answer.

Offline momofsixbabes

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Re: Vatican making land grab in Israel - JUST SAY NO!
« Reply #19 on: April 27, 2009, 11:37:33 AM »
I tried to warn y'all.  The pope wants Jerusalem. The vatican is accustomed to getting what they want.

Of course you did you warned people that us Catholics are evil anti Christian Christians
Did you learn that in Public school?
I'm a Catholic and we Catholics are Christians.  Period.


You are exactly right.  Period.  Exclamation point!

For someone to expose the Vatican or Catholic church should not be taken so personally. Just do some research yourself. I was brought up Catholic. You need not take such personal offense at the history of that church. That is like a Muslim refusing to believe in the history of Islam. There are people that are in religions that don't even know the history of their churches. Research it. No one is saying that you are not "Christian", but the beliefs of the Catholic church are definately not Christian. The children and I were astonished at how much of the Babylon religions were in the Catholic church, from priest confessionals to praying to a "mother god", etc. There is also the "Christian Crusades" in which people were burned at the stake for not  converting to Catholicsm (including Indians, Protestants...etc). There is so much. Here in St. Louis it was printed in the paper one year that the underground tunnels between the nuns and priests had skeletons of a lot of dead babies (also part of history). Don't blindly believe without understanding where this church comes from. Please check into it and don't take personal offense.

Offline Americanhero1

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Re: Vatican making land grab in Israel - JUST SAY NO!
« Reply #20 on: April 27, 2009, 11:45:03 AM »
I tried to warn y'all.  The pope wants Jerusalem. The vatican is accustomed to getting what they want.

Of course you did you warned people that us Catholics are evil anti Christian Christians
Did you learn that in Public school?
I'm a Catholic and we Catholics are Christians.  Period.


You are exactly right.  Period.  Exclamation point!

For someone to expose the Vatican or Catholic church should not be taken so personally. Just do some research yourself. I was brought up Catholic. You need not take such personal offense at the history of that church. That is like a Muslim refusing to believe in the history of Islam. There are people that are in religions that don't even know the history of their churches. Research it. No one is saying that you are not "Christian", but the beliefs of the Catholic church are definitely not Christian. The children and I were astonished at how much of the Babylon religions were in the Catholic church, from priest confessionals to praying to a "mother G-d", etc. There is also the "Christian Crusades" in which people were burned at the stake for not  converting to Catholicism (including Indians, Protestants...etc). There is so much. Here in St. Louis it was printed in the paper one year that the underground tunnels between the nuns and priests had skeletons of a lot of dead babies (also part of history). Don't blindly believe without understanding where this church comes from. Please check into it and don't take personal offense.

Oh so now your comparing Catholics to Muslims
How original

Offline momofsixbabes

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Re: Vatican making land grab in Israel - JUST SAY NO!
« Reply #21 on: April 27, 2009, 11:50:45 AM »
I tried to warn y'all.  The pope wants Jerusalem. The vatican is accustomed to getting what they want.

Of course you did you warned people that us Catholics are evil anti Christian Christians
Did you learn that in Public school?
I'm a Catholic and we Catholics are Christians.  Period.


You are exactly right.  Period.  Exclamation point!

For someone to expose the Vatican or Catholic church should not be taken so personally. Just do some research yourself. I was brought up Catholic. You need not take such personal offense at the history of that church. That is like a Muslim refusing to believe in the history of Islam. There are people that are in religions that don't even know the history of their churches. Research it. No one is saying that you are not "Christian", but the beliefs of the Catholic church are definitely not Christian. The children and I were astonished at how much of the Babylon religions were in the Catholic church, from priest confessionals to praying to a "mother G-d", etc. There is also the "Christian Crusades" in which people were burned at the stake for not  converting to Catholicism (including Indians, Protestants...etc). There is so much. Here in St. Louis it was printed in the paper one year that the underground tunnels between the nuns and priests had skeletons of a lot of dead babies (also part of history). Don't blindly believe without understanding where this church comes from. Please check into it and don't take personal offense.

Oh so now your comparing Catholics to Muslims
How original

Both come from very violent and aggressive backgrounds. I think history shows that. I am sure that we could compare to other religions in which people blindly believe without any knowledge of the religion of which they believe. However, when those attack it is usually because they choose to not want to know the truth. The history of both of these religions is very ugly and wicked. Just research and stop being so personally offended. Remember I said that I use to also be Catholic!! I was pulled out of public school one day a week to be shipped to the Catholic church to learn their beliefs. I was even named after a nun. I have the right to say what I have learned. The Catholic church is not Christian!!

Offline Americanhero1

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Re: Vatican making land grab in Israel - JUST SAY NO!
« Reply #22 on: April 27, 2009, 11:53:13 AM »
I tried to warn y'all.  The pope wants Jerusalem. The vatican is accustomed to getting what they want.

Of course you did you warned people that us Catholics are evil anti Christian Christians
Did you learn that in Public school?
I'm a Catholic and we Catholics are Christians.  Period.


You are exactly right.  Period.  Exclamation point!

For someone to expose the Vatican or Catholic church should not be taken so personally. Just do some research yourself. I was brought up Catholic. You need not take such personal offense at the history of that church. That is like a Muslim refusing to believe in the history of Islam. There are people that are in religions that don't even know the history of their churches. Research it. No one is saying that you are not "Christian", but the beliefs of the Catholic church are definitely not Christian. The children and I were astonished at how much of the Babylon religions were in the Catholic church, from priest confessionals to praying to a "mother G-d", etc. There is also the "Christian Crusades" in which people were burned at the stake for not  converting to Catholicism (including Indians, Protestants...etc). There is so much. Here in St. Louis it was printed in the paper one year that the underground tunnels between the nuns and priests had skeletons of a lot of dead babies (also part of history). Don't blindly believe without understanding where this church comes from. Please check into it and don't take personal offense.

Oh so now your comparing Catholics to Muslims
How original

Both come from very violent and aggressive backgrounds. I think history shows that. I am sure that we could compare to other religions in which people blindly believe without any knowledge of the religion of which they believe. However, when those attack it is usually because they choose to not want to know the truth. The history of both of these religions is very ugly and wicked. Just research and stop being so personally offended. Remember I said that I use to also be Catholic!! I was pulled out of public school one day a week to be shipped to the Catholic church to learn their beliefs. I was even named after a nun. I have the right to say what I have learned. The Catholic church is not Christian!!

If Catholics are not Christian what are we then

Offline Lisa

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Re: Vatican making land grab in Israel - JUST SAY NO!
« Reply #23 on: April 27, 2009, 11:55:45 AM »
OK people, no fighting between Catholics and Protestants.  We have bigger fish to fry. 

Offline Ithaca-37

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Re: Vatican making land grab in Israel - JUST SAY NO!
« Reply #24 on: April 27, 2009, 11:59:10 AM »
Unless I missed it, there was no comment about what I consider to be a genuine possible outcome, and a genuinely unhappy one at that.  And this despite what looks like a hint in the original story.  The Catholic Church is clearly weakening in The West, and just as clearly, Islam (ugh) is growing stronger.  I've said for a long time now that the Catholic Church long viewed Islam as a rival business, and there was a tacit agreement to keep hands-off their respective strongholds.  However, today Islam recognizes the relative strength and weakness between the two entities, and this old hands-off philosophy is going away.

We've seen pieces posted on this Board with Muslims crowing about putting minarets on Catholic Churches, even the Vatican.  If this agreement goes through, what's the prevent the Catholics from giving away this Jerusalem real estate as a bargaining chip?

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