Author Topic: The Reversal of Retrograde Rotation  (Read 14022 times)

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Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: The Reversal of Retrograde Rotation
« Reply #25 on: July 23, 2009, 11:00:51 AM »

Does the Jewish date 5769 have any meaning to you?!
We didn't always date ourselves that way.   But either way, that says nothing about how old the earth is.  It's a convention.

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"Some people believe in the Torah implicitly, but they believe in evolution too. Exactly how you reconcile evolution with the Torah, that’s not so easy!
   

If one insists upon a literalist fundamentalist reading of Torah and to pretend that it's a science book, then for sure that's not easy.   But the vast majority of people who believe in Chumash and also have seen the evidence for evolution/old universe and are convinced the science is true, these people do not insist upon fundamentalist readings of Chumash, and so it is not quite so difficult.   Like all great rabbis, Rabbi Miller is seeing the arguments of his opponents through his own lens - just like the rishonim did - but when one realizes that his opponents in this argument do not begin with the same starting assumptions that he does, much difficulty drops away. 

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"The universe will exist 6000 years" (Sanhedrin 97)!

Once again you are quoting a midrash.  Other contrary midrashim exist and one is not forced to take this as the only, immutable objective truth.  Most kabalists don't even agree with this.  And I mean the real kabbalists, not the clowns running around today.    But whether they do or don't agree with it is not the point.  You present it as dogmatic, as a gospel.   In no other facet of Jewish law or Jewish hashkafa do we treat midrashim in such a way.   It is an fundamentalist approach to do so.

With your denial of the heliocentricity of the planets, which has been proven through innumerable observations and fact, you are basically claiming right now that 2+2 = 5.

Offline Yochai

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Re: The Reversal of Retrograde Rotation
« Reply #26 on: July 23, 2009, 11:05:08 AM »

I can tell you as a person who is very close to the Lubavticher community, that most Lubavitchers will agree with the Rebbe and state that the universe is in fact geocentric.


And they are also mistaken, but if any of them ever went to university got a degree in biology and then went on to do real scientific research, they would no longer agree to such things.    Unless they are delusional.   Some people believe anything a certain rebbe says is 100% true and infallible.  This to me is poisonous ideology and certainly not consistent with a rebbe being human and rabbis being fallible like anyone else.   Not to mention that rabbis with an expertise in Torah often do not have the means or the time to develop an expertise in all other subjects known to man, let alone even a simple example like, say, biochemistry.  So it is unreasonable to think such things that rabbis will know everything.   Like the Rambam would say, best to consult a doctor about medicine, not a rabbi who is not trained in it.   Same here with regards to complicated science.   

One of my good friends at University is a Chabadnik, who is now on his way to a masters in biology, and he has stood by this.  I am not a science expert, so I cannot judge his research, but I do know that he drives many professors and students crazy because he uses their own theories to show that they cannot prove him wrong.

I am not going to pick a side on this issue, because truthfully, science is not my expertise.  But I will say that it is naive to say that anybody has been proven 100% wrong about science.  The Lubavitcher Rebbe was very knowledgable in science (regardless of the leftist drek that states he did not attend the schools he claimed- If you believe those stories, the it means that HaRav Soloveitchik is also a liar, as he talks of his experiences with the Rebbe in Berlin), and his final conclusion (with the help of many of his Chossids- think of all the Baalei Teshuvah in Chabad who have great scientific knowledge from the secular world.) was that the universe is geocentric.

The issue also lies within the fact that the Rambam is a key source on this.  As the Rambams work was mostly uncited, one must delve through many seforim to find the basis for his rulings.  On this, I trust the Rebbe's knowledge of Rambam over my own.  The fact is that the Rebbe had no problem stating that some of Rambam's medical ideas were incorrect upon investigation, even though the Rambam was a doctor, so the Rebbe was not just a blind follower.  He undertook serious Chakiro, much like the Rambam, and came to his conclusion.

You are right, it is best to consult a doctor about medicine, not a Rabbi who is not trained in it.  But if you can have both, then that is ideal.  The Rebbe had access to Baalei Teshuvah who were doctors in biology, physics, etc, and they came to the same conclusion, which is that geocentrism cannot be disproved.

Lastly, on the age of the universe, there is nothing in the Torah stating that the universe is 5769 years old. To say so is to say that one has a complete understanding of the process of creation, which in itself is probably the most difficult and complex area of the Chumash

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Re: The Reversal of Retrograde Rotation
« Reply #27 on: July 23, 2009, 12:04:30 PM »
Before I saw this thread, I didn't even know that there are people alive today who believe in geocentricism. Newton's Laws and Kepler's Laws show that the earth has to revolve around the sun.

Offline Yochai

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Re: The Reversal of Retrograde Rotation
« Reply #28 on: July 23, 2009, 12:31:37 PM »
Before I saw this thread, I didn't even know that there are people alive today who believe in geocentricism. Newton's Laws and Kepler's Laws show that the earth has to revolve around the sun.

Scientific laws have also proven that something cannot be formed out of nothing.  Which means that creation is bogus.

Let me restate, I am not a geocentrist, and I believe that the intricacies of science in our world is a creation of Hashem, so I am not scared to state that there are many complex biological processes, and that many of them are real, and not created by scientists, but by Hashem.

At the same time, I do not believe that any scientist with a prestigious title is always going to be right.

Hashem made the life process in this world very complex, with set rules and so forth. Nonethless, when a scientist makes an observation, we are not bound to think that he is right just because it makes sense in the created world of theory that academic scientists have created for themselves.

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: The Reversal of Retrograde Rotation
« Reply #29 on: July 23, 2009, 01:42:32 PM »

I can tell you as a person who is very close to the Lubavticher community, that most Lubavitchers will agree with the Rebbe and state that the universe is in fact geocentric.


And they are also mistaken, but if any of them ever went to university got a degree in biology and then went on to do real scientific research, they would no longer agree to such things.    Unless they are delusional.   Some people believe anything a certain rebbe says is 100% true and infallible.  This to me is poisonous ideology and certainly not consistent with a rebbe being human and rabbis being fallible like anyone else.   Not to mention that rabbis with an expertise in Torah often do not have the means or the time to develop an expertise in all other subjects known to man, let alone even a simple example like, say, biochemistry.  So it is unreasonable to think such things that rabbis will know everything.   Like the Rambam would say, best to consult a doctor about medicine, not a rabbi who is not trained in it.   Same here with regards to complicated science.   

  The Lubavitcher Rebbe was very knowledgable in science (regardless of the leftist drek that states he did not attend the schools he claimed- If you believe those stories, the it means that HaRav Soloveitchik is also a liar, as he talks of his experiences with the Rebbe in Berlin),

I don't know of any such "drek."  And I never claimed the Lubavitcher Rebbe or anyone else was a liar.   It IS a mistake to say he was trained in science though.  He studied philosophy and was at least an acquaintence of Rav Soloveitchik while they both studied at University of Berlin.

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: The Reversal of Retrograde Rotation
« Reply #30 on: July 23, 2009, 01:45:52 PM »
Before I saw this thread, I didn't even know that there are people alive today who believe in geocentricism. Newton's Laws and Kepler's Laws show that the earth has to revolve around the sun.

I am also astonished at this, Moshe.

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: The Reversal of Retrograde Rotation
« Reply #31 on: July 23, 2009, 01:50:56 PM »
Before I saw this thread, I didn't even know that there are people alive today who believe in geocentricism. Newton's Laws and Kepler's Laws show that the earth has to revolve around the sun.

Scientific laws have also proven that something cannot be formed out of nothing.  Which means that creation is bogus.


You cannot "disprove" creation.   Creation by definition happens before there is a scientific law.   G-d is not bound by the laws of nature and we believe he made a 'miracle' to create the world and He Himself created the laws of science.   On the other hand, certainly you can disprove whether or not a certain body of mass revolves around another body of mass.   This is done through observation, data collection, analysis, and a combination from many fields and disciplines that all prove the same basic point.  That the earth revolves around the sun.   It is not done through massive conspiracy or polemics or wishful thinking.   It is a process by which scientists have tried to derive at the truth, not to push certain beliefs.   The great scientists like Kepler, Bohr, Newton, etc etc were not interested in promoting their "beliefs" in a certain principle or principles.  They were out to test hypotheses and determine empirically whether certain postulates about the physical world were true or false, provable or not provable.  Their work was based on the "scientific method." 

These are the steps of the scientific method to summarize for beginners:  http://www.sciencebuddies.org/science-fair-projects/project_scientific_method.shtml

This is a physical reality that can be observed in the universe, and cannot be compared with the act of creation itself.   
« Last Edit: July 23, 2009, 02:25:39 PM by Kahane-Was-Right BT »

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: The Reversal of Retrograde Rotation
« Reply #32 on: July 23, 2009, 02:01:29 PM »
"God forbid that something in the Torah should contradict a proof or demonstration" (Kuzari 1:67)...

And just as in his (Rabbi Yehuda HaLewi's) day, creation cannot be "proven" or disproven, so too it cannot be proven or demonstrated or disproven today.  So that is not an example where we are required to believe something that is completely contradicting of reality.  And the Torah would never demand that of us, according to the rishonim and their understanding of Torah.   In his day it was an issue of Aristotelian proofs for and against, which did not constitute real physical evidence (as in, hard science) or demonstration.  For the same reason, the Rambam was also not prepared to accept the arguments of Aristotle as fullproof or making a need to reinterpret Torah.  They did not concede to him because that is not real evidence, only logical/philosophical speculation.

On the other hand, a heliocentric universe has been proven by demonstration and observation of physical reality.   G-d forbid that the Torah would have us believe in something (geocentrism) that contradicts clear proof and demonstration.

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: The Reversal of Retrograde Rotation
« Reply #33 on: July 23, 2009, 02:19:51 PM »
Before I saw this thread, I didn't even know that there are people alive today who believe in geocentricism. Newton's Laws and Kepler's Laws show that the earth has to revolve around the sun.

and I believe that the intricacies of science in our world is a creation of Hashem,
  Precisely.

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so I am not scared to state that there are many complex biological processes, and that many of them are real, and not created by scientists, but by Hashem. 

I don't know of any scientists that claim to have created the phenomena observed in nature.

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At the same time, I do not believe that any scientist with a prestigious title is always going to be right.

But no one is claiming that.

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Hashem made the life process in this world very complex, with set rules and so forth. Nonethless, when a scientist makes an observation, we are not bound to think that he is right just because it makes sense in the created world of theory that academic scientists have created for themselves.

No, we ARE bound to accept real evidence for what it is.   We are NOT bound to live in denial, (in fact we are forbidden), of what exists in reality because it is inconvenient for us or because we wish to view the Torah in a fundamentalist manner.   And by fundamentalist manner I mean citing one midrash agada and then claiming that this is the only acceptable view within a Torah framework and trying to filter all Jewish hashkafa through this one midrash.  And that to deny this midrash or use a different contradicting one for hashkafa is somehow denying all Torah.  That is a fundamentalist approach.   

Compelling proof is compelling proof.    The fact that the universe is heliocentric is not a challenge or contradiction to the Torah.  As the Rambam says to accept the truth from whatever its source in the beginning of Shemoneh Perakim, so too, we should do so, even if the source of a given truth is an "atheist" or a "secular Jew" or a "scientist."  The truth is the truth.  Anyway, it is much more common today for scientists to be atheist, (of course not all of them are), and that was not the case in the past.   Heliocentrism is something that was established a long time ago.  Not a passing fad.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2009, 02:27:18 PM by Kahane-Was-Right BT »

Offline Muck DeFuslims

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Re: The Reversal of Retrograde Rotation
« Reply #34 on: July 23, 2009, 03:19:02 PM »
KWRBT, You should realize by now it's impossible to win a debate with, or convince 'young earth/universe' proponents that the earth and the universe are more than 6,000 years old. It doesn't matter how much scientific proof you provide. You can not win.

As an example, in this thread one of the posters refers to a 'dearth' of human records and artifacts older than 6,000 years as some sort of proof for a 'young' earth. OK, let's accept that there aren't human artifacts older than 6,000 years. Is this some sort of proof that the earth itself, (and the universe) is only 6,000 years old ? If you were to tell this poster of other evidence disproving the 'young' earth, (such as dinosaur fossils) he'd just tell you the dating method is erroneous. By the way, even a 'dearth' of artifacts proven to be older than 6,000 years of age, would be enough to destroy the idea of the earth being only 6,000 years old. In fact, it is obvious that it would only take a single artifact, fossil, or piece of evidence to do so. But of course, it's impossible to prove the age of anything being older than 6,000 years, because any scientific dating method that does so has to be wrong.

Keep in mind that we're not talking about a miniscule or relatively small difference in age here, either. We're talking about BILLIONS of years.

Of course, ultimately, if one believes that time is relative, then it is possible to say the earth and the universe are only a little more than 6 days old and be right. But from our human perspective, from our reality, here on earth, with our space-time coordinates it is obvious the universe is indeed far, far older than 6 days or 6,000 years.

One can legitimately argue that from a divine perspective, looking forward in time from the beginning, (rather than back) that the universe has only existed for a little more than the 6 days depicted in Genesis.

But we are not divine, and to insist the universe (as measured in human years), is only 6,000 years of age literally borders on insanity.

But you will never, ever convince some people of this.

Offline muman613

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Re: The Reversal of Retrograde Rotation
« Reply #35 on: July 23, 2009, 03:58:27 PM »
Science is an invention of mankind and has been shown to be flawed. I am a scientist {a computer scientist} and I live with the belief that nothing can be proven 100% accurately because there is always a quantity of unknown. In my own profession I know that there may be more than one solution for a particular problem and all problems and solutions can co-exist. I believe that the world is 6000 years old but that time has become warped. During the initial creation time was much accelerated and we have no idea because we cannot go back in time to prove anything. Just as a scientist cannot prove to me what is going to happen tomorrow. The only thing a scientist can do is make observations and come to some theories... Many theories have been disproved and many whole sciences have been abandoned. I do not put any trust in Medicine or Science and look at is as just humans trying to understand the infinite creator without even coming close.

Only when mankind accepts the yoke of heaven will all the answers of creation be answered. This is my faith, and my experience, and I will defend my beliefs with my life.
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Muck DeFuslims

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Re: The Reversal of Retrograde Rotation
« Reply #36 on: July 23, 2009, 04:34:33 PM »
You are entitled to your beliefs and I'm really not interested in trying to change them.

However, I do wonder why someone that considers himself a 'scientist' doesn't put any trust in science. I can understand not accepting theories or having alternative views to unanswered questions or problems, but to flat out state that you don't trust science at all, seems odd. Surely, you must believe that there is objective truth and knowledge, and that not all of science is subjective or untrustable. Surely, you can't be serious about not having any trust in medicine. Are you saying you don't visit a doctor when you're ill or take a medicine that can make you better ? If you do, then you must have some level of trust in science and medicine.

Do you have any reason to believe that time has become warped ? Is this just a personal belief ? Or is it supported by Torah or scientific evidence ? Just curious.


Offline muman613

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Re: The Reversal of Retrograde Rotation
« Reply #37 on: July 23, 2009, 04:46:23 PM »
You are entitled to your beliefs and I'm really not interested in trying to change them.

However, I do wonder why someone that considers himself a 'scientist' doesn't put any trust in science. I can understand not accepting theories or having alternative views to unanswered questions or problems, but to flat out state that you don't trust science at all, seems odd. Surely, you must believe that there is objective truth and knowledge, and that not all of science is subjective or untrustable. Surely, you can't be serious about not having any trust in medicine. Are you saying you don't visit a doctor when you're ill or take a medicine that can make you better ? If you do, then you must have some level of trust in science and medicine.

Do you have any reason to believe that time has become warped ? Is this just a personal belief ? Or is it supported by Torah or scientific evidence ? Just curious.



I have just lived through a medical nightmare... I was misdiagnosed for over five years, treated with medicines which nearly destroyed my liver functions {taking medicine I did not need to take}, and miraculously I have been cured. I believe it is the hand of Hashem who cured me from this. It was labeled Vasculitis by a biopsy done in 2004 and they treated this with anti-immune system drugs and prednisone which caused me much discomfort. I have no faith that the doctors even did anything except charge my insurance for $100,000s of dollars.

My mother had a similar experience with her doctors who told her there was nothing wrong for many years, only after getting a second or third opinion did they discover that there really was a problem. Now my father and step-dad have cancer and it seems that only because of miracles they are still alive. The chemo my step-dad was on almost killed him, after he stopped taking it he recovered... Now they say his tumors are in remission. This to me is another medical miracle...

I use the scientific method to develop software. But there are times when working on some complex software bugs {i work in some of the most complex software code, digital video and audio encoders and decoders} when it seems that only though insight granted from Hashem do I understand the nature of the bug. Scientific measurements of the bugs help, but the solution is not found through the measurements. Only through the light of intellect can these issues be resolved. I truly live each day thanking Hashem for providing the solutions to all my software problems.

I have been gainfully employed as a software engineer for over 20 years. My expertice is still in high demand and I make a 6-figure salary as a Senior Engineer. My religious beliefs do not interfere with my ability to produce advanced code. In a sense I view my job as a way to emulate my creator.



You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline galileerat

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Re: The Reversal of Retrograde Rotation
« Reply #38 on: July 23, 2009, 04:57:56 PM »
And what exactly are the proofs for heliocentrism?

Mach's Principle and Einstein's Relativity state that there can be none: all the phenomena produced by an Earth rotating on its axis are equally well explained by a universe going round the Earth every 24 hours. So how can you distinguish one from the other?


The only way you can tell what is the true state of affairs is to go outside of the universe and report back. This we cannot do in this lifetime.

But we believe we have already had such a report: Hashem's Word is that the Earth is stationary.

Note that weather forecasting, practical astronomy, space shots, satellite launches, artillery, navigation, rocketry, oceanography, calendars, astrology, and gyroscopy, are all based on the stationary Earth model!

"We cannot feel our motion through space. Nor has any experiment ever proven that the Earth actually is in motion" (Einstein's leading disciple Professor Lincoln Barnett).


On the other hand, a heliocentric universe has been proven by demonstration and observation of physical reality. 
« Last Edit: July 23, 2009, 07:45:26 PM by galileerat »

Offline Muck DeFuslims

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Re: The Reversal of Retrograde Rotation
« Reply #39 on: July 23, 2009, 05:08:44 PM »
I'm glad you are cured and your father is recovering. I too, have had some terrible experieces with doctors. In fact, you can't drag me to see a doctor unless I have a life threatening illness. The next doctor that sees me will probably be doing my autopsy. But that doesn't mean I don't trust science or medicine at all.

I'm glad you apply scientific method to developing software and problem resolution. I agree that intellect and insight is a blessing you have been bestowed with by Hashem and through the study of Torah.

But in all honesty, I still can't fathom why you dont have any trust in science at all. That makes no sense to me.

Also, I'm still curious about your belief that time has become warped and what (if any) basis you have for this belief.

Offline Yochai

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Re: The Reversal of Retrograde Rotation
« Reply #40 on: July 23, 2009, 09:09:16 PM »
So the Rambam is being used to defend science.  If so, I have one question:

Should I be using the science of Rambam's days, because that is what he was referring to.  If I do so, I am using science that according to you, has been "proven" wrong by the modern day scientists.

And in time, the modern scientists will again be proven wrong. And so forth.

To say that there is compelling truth for heliocentrism may be true.  Then again, one does not have to accept compelling evidence, as it is only compelling, not absolute.  As for absolute evidence for heliocentrism, no such thing exists.

Offline muman613

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Re: The Reversal of Retrograde Rotation
« Reply #41 on: July 24, 2009, 12:27:11 AM »
I'm glad you are cured and your father is recovering. I too, have had some terrible experieces with doctors. In fact, you can't drag me to see a doctor unless I have a life threatening illness. The next doctor that sees me will probably be doing my autopsy. But that doesn't mean I don't trust science or medicine at all.

I'm glad you apply scientific method to developing software and problem resolution. I agree that intellect and insight is a blessing you have been bestowed with by Hashem and through the study of Torah.

But in all honesty, I still can't fathom why you dont have any trust in science at all. That makes no sense to me.

Also, I'm still curious about your belief that time has become warped and what (if any) basis you have for this belief.

Maybe I used the wrong term but I am sure you have heard this explanation that time at the beginning of creation {according to Torah} occured before there was a sun and a moon, and therefore the concept of days and nights did not exist. Also it is possible that time expanded as it was created, from the 'in the beginning of G-ds creating' to the end of the sixth day. It is possible that according to our understanding of time now, a second could have actually been perceived to us as billions of years. As KWRBT also mentions there is the possibility that the age of the universe which our physical sensors perceive is actually discovered in our Kabbalah. Hashem created this world for a purpose and he created it so we can discover him. There are reasons we see dinosour fossils, and reasons we perceive the universe as billions of years old. I am just not all-knowing to know the reason for every thing in existance. I have enough humility to stand back and say it is an awesome world, and it doesn't just happen.


I also pretty much agree with everything Doctor Gerald Schroeder writes here at Aish:

http://www.aish.com/ci/sam/48951136.html
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

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Re: The Reversal of Retrograde Rotation
« Reply #42 on: July 24, 2009, 12:29:20 AM »
Here is another excerpt from this article at Aish:


What is a "day?"

Let's jump back to the Six Days of Genesis. First of all, we now know that when the Biblical calendar says 5700-plus years, we must add to that "plus six days."

A few years ago, I acquired a dinosaur fossil that was dated (by two radioactive decay chains) as 150 million years old. My 7-year-old daughter says, "Abba! Dinosaurs? How can there be dinosaurs 150 million years ago, when my Bible teacher says the world isn't even 6000 years old?" So I told her to look in Psalms 90:4. There, you'll find something quite amazing. King David says, "One thousand years in Your (God's) sight are like a day that passes, a watch in the night." Perhaps time is different from the perspective of King David, than it is from the perspective of the Creator. Perhaps time is different.

The Talmud (Chagiga, ch. 2), in trying to understand the subtleties of Torah, analyzes the word "choshech." When the word "choshech" appears in Genesis 1:2, the Talmud explains that it means black fire, black energy, a kind of energy that is so powerful you can't even see it. Two verses later, in Genesis 1:4, the Talmud explains that the same word -- "choshech" -- means darkness, i.e. the absence of light.

Other words as well are not to be understood by their common definitions. For example, "mayim" typically means water. But Maimonides says that in the original statements of creation, the word "mayim" may also mean the building blocks of the universe.

Another example is Genesis 1:5, which says, "There is evening and morning, Day One." That is the first time that a day is quantified: evening and morning. Nachmanides discusses the meaning of evening and morning. Does it mean sunset and sunrise? It would certainly seem to.

But Nachmanides points out a problem with that. The text says "there was evening and morning Day One... evening and morning a second day... evening and morning a third day." Then on the fourth day, the sun is mentioned. Nachmanides says that any intelligent reader can see an obvious problem. How do we have a concept of evening and morning for the first three days if the sun is only mentioned on Day Four? There is a purpose for the sun appearing only on Day Four, so that as time goes by and people understand more about the universe, you can dig deeper into the text.

Nachmanides says the text uses the words "Vayehi Erev" -- but it doesn't mean "there was evening." He explains that the Hebrew letters Ayin, Resh, Bet -- the root of "erev" -- is chaos. Mixture, disorder. That's why evening is called "erev", because when the sun goes down, vision becomes blurry. The literal meaning is "there was disorder." The Torah's word for "morning" -- "boker" -- is the absolute opposite. When the sun rises, the world becomes "bikoret", orderly, able to be discerned. That's why the sun needn't be mentioned until Day Four. Because from erev to boker is a flow from disorder to order, from chaos to cosmos. That's something any scientist will testify never happens in an unguided system. Order never arises from disorder spontaneously and remains orderly. Order always degrades to chaos unless the environment recognizes the order and locks it in to preserve it. There must be a guide to the system. That's an unequivocal statement.

The Torah wants us to be amazed by this flow, starting from a chaotic plasma and ending up with a symphony of life. Day-by-day the world progresses to higher and higher levels. Order out of disorder. It's pure thermodynamics. And it's stated in terminology of 3000 years ago.

The creation of time.

Each day of creation is numbered. Yet there is discontinuity in the way the days are numbered. The verse says: "There is evening and morning, Day One." But the second day doesn't say "evening and morning, Day Two." Rather, it says "evening and morning, a second day." And the Torah continues with this pattern: "Evening and morning, a third day... a fourth day... a fifth day... the sixth day." Only on the first day does the text use a different form: not "first day," but "Day One" ("Yom Echad"). Many English translations make the mistake of writing "a first day." That's because editors want things to be nice and consistent. But they throw out the cosmic message in the text! Because there is a qualitative difference, as Nachmanides says, between "one" and "first." One is absolute; first is comparative.

Nachmanides explains that on Day One, time was created. That's a phenomenal insight. Time was created. You can't grab time. You don't even see it. You can see space, you can see matter, you can feel energy, you can see light energy. I understand a creation there. But the creation of time? Eight hundred years ago, Nachmanides attained this insight from the Torah's use of the phrase, "Day One." And that's exactly what Einstein taught us in the Laws of Relativity: that there was a creation, not just of space and matter, but of time itself.

Einstein's Law of Relativity.

Looking back in time, a scientist will view the universe as being 15 billion years old. But what is the Bible's view of time? Maybe it sees time differently. And that makes a big difference. Albert Einstein taught us that Big Bang cosmology brings not just space and matter into existence, but that time is part of the nitty gritty. Time is a dimension. Time is affected by your view of time. How you see time depends on where you're viewing it. A minute on the moon goes faster than a minute on the Earth. A minute on the sun goes slower. Time on the sun is actually stretched out so that if you could put a clock on the sun, it would tick more slowly. It's a small difference, but it's measurable and measured.
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: The Reversal of Retrograde Rotation
« Reply #43 on: July 26, 2009, 01:35:12 PM »
So the Rambam is being used to defend science.  If so, I have one question:

Should I be using the science of Rambam's days, because that is what he was referring to.  If I do so, I am using science that according to you, has been "proven" wrong by the modern day scientists.


No.  Rambam says specifically that one should rely on the proven scientific evidence of the time even if they go against what came before.   If Rambam reported that certain Talmudic era medical/scientific understandings were outdated in his day, certainly we can acknowledge that some of the medical knowledge from Rambam's day that he reported on has also become outdated.