Please help me with this Torah question

[zachor_ve_kavod]

I am not as learned in Torah as many of you, and my brother asked me this question, which I will post below.  I answered as best as I could, but I would greatly appreciate it, if you could add your thoughts.  Here is his question, followed by my answer:

"The story goes that God kicked Adam and Eve out of the garden because of disobeying His orders (eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil).  Something bothers me about this story, and I want your opinion.  Here's my problem; One has to assume that, before eating the fruit, Adam and Eve had no knowledge of good and evil.  If they had no knowledge of good and evil then how did they know that obeying God was good (or disobeying bad)?  Is it just to punish someone for committing an act when the perpetrator had no ability to know that the act was wrong?  I'm not asking this to poke holes in the story, rather to better understand how to interpret original sin."

My answer:

The question is a difficult one because even though you are looking at this story from a rather narrow perspective (that of justice), there are many other aspects to consider.  Here are several other aspects that complicate your question:
 
1.  Genesis can be interpreted allegorically.
 
2.  Genesis can be interpreted apocryphally.
 
3.  Justice is difficult enough to define when the characters of a scenario are human.  G-d is not human, nor is He bound by time and space.  To understand how God conceives of justice (in His eyes, not ours), we must understand God.  This is not possible.  One thing you must consider is:  Did G-d not know that Adam and Eve would disobey Him?  This gets into very advanced questions of Judaic and Christian theology.
 
G-d gave us free will and yet G-d knows what man will do.  Although your question seems like a fairly straight-forward one, it ultimately leads one to ask that which is unknowable, namely, "Why did G-d put us here and what is His plan for us?"
 
If I were to answer your question just as you have asked it and nothing more, I would probably say that G-d did tell Adam and Eve that it was forbidden to eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, and also from the tree of life.  Therefore, they knew that they were doing something wrong.  Proof of this is seen by their actions after they ate the fruit.  They clothed themselves and hid from God.  This is proof of a guilty mind.
 
One example in which this story is allegorical (and there are many examples of this) is that when we sin, we are banishing ourselves from God.  Remember that before God banished Adam and Eve from the garden, they hid from Him.  Sin alienates us from G-d.
 
This is all I could think of right now.  Remember that I am not a learned scholar in Talmud or Torah.  This is a good question to ask a Rabbi, a real Rabbi, not some conservative or reform so-called Rabbi.
 
There are also many books and articles written about the meaning of Genesis 3.
 
I hope this helps.
 
Nir
----- Original

[muman613]

I will not answer all of your questions but pose some of the answers which I understand.

Obviously since Hashem exists without the boundries of time, he already knows the future, and he knows the past, and he is creating the present. He knew that they would disobey them, and even the angels were reticent of Hashem creating man, just as they were unhappy that he gave us the Torah.

Since this is the case you can ask why did he create the simple command not to eat of the fruit of knowledge. The reason for this was to teach us a lesson, just as a loving father teaches a son who is learning to live in this complex world. Sometimes we have to let go of the child and let him fall, and punish him. Because a fire will burn if you touch the hot coals. So Hashem placed them in the garden without a yetzer hara. They did not know good from bad, as there was no bad inside of them. The serpent represents the yetzer hara and it uses deception to dupe Eve into eating of the tree. Hashem did not command Eve, he only commanded Adam who then told Eve. In this first case of the game of telephone {a childs game} the message became corrupted, and Eve believed that they were commanded not to touch or eat the tree. The serpent then pushed Eves hand against the fruit and when she did not die, the serpent had won her over. This is a common ploy used by the yetzer hara, to use our misunderstandings against us.

The issue of Free Will is a complex one, yet just about every area of Jewish wisdom is complex. I marvel at the idea that two contradictory ideas can co-exist without kaos. Light and Dark must co-exist, for without dark there is no light. But when it comes to free will Hashem is waiting for the soul. Every soul has the free will to disobey the commandments and to test the boundries of acceptable human behavior. Our being is half divine soul, and half animal soul. Hashem asks the Jewish people to come close to him through the performance of mitzvot.

There is a balance in the world between free will and divine providence. Just as there is a balance in the world of Justice and Mercy. Hashem has created man in order to give to us. This is what the sages have said concerning the reason Hashem created man. So it is not any kind of cruelty by a demanding G-d. It is a loving father who is nurturing and scolding his children.

I hope this helps in a way...

[muman613]

http://www.chabad.org/parshah/article_cdo/aid/770590/jewish/Why-Did-G-d-Create-Evil.htm

Perfection Does Not Come Easily

Our sages taught that G‑d created the world out of sheer benevolence. He wanted to bestow goodness upon humanity. Because He is perfect He wanted to bestow perfect goodness. In other words, G‑d wanted to bestow Himself.

He could have made a perfect world with people who emulate their Creator perfectly. But such people would have been a poor emulation of G‑d. They would not have been inherently good; their goodness would have been bestowed from Above. It would have been a borrowed perfection.

Thus G‑d created a world in which goodness and evil are equal options, and He created humanity with the freedom to choose. Our penchant for goodness is not greater than our proclivity for evil; we are evenly balanced. If we want to embrace goodness we must make a choice, and choices reflect who we are. We are not forced into goodness by powers beyond ourselves. We are moved by our choice, by an inner conviction that goodness is right. This inner resolve reflects the goodness within our souls and comes as close as humanity can possibly come to being inherently good.

G‑d did not create evil so that we could indulge it, but so that we could avoid it. If evil did not exist, choosing against it would not be possible, and perfection would slip from our grasp. That evil is a viable option makes it possible for us to choose against it and affirm our inherent goodness.1

[muman613]

http://www.torah.org/learning/integrity/makeman.html

The Almighty said, "Let us make adam (man) in our image and our likeness." (Bereshith 1:26)

Why did God say, "Let us make man"? To whom did He make this statement, and why? In His infinite humility, God consulted His Heavenly Court before creating man.1 What advice could they possibly have offered to God?

The attribute of Kindness voted that God should create man, because man would perform acts of kindness. The attribute of Charity concurred that man should be created, because he would give charity. The attributes of Truth and Peace, however, advised God not to create man, for he would ultimately misuse his faculty of speech by lying and arguing.2 Since the "vote" resulted in a tie, why did God decide to create man? God grabbed Truth and hurled it to the earth, as the verse states, "And He shall cast truth to the ground."3 This left the majority in favor of creating man.

Could God have eliminated the vote of Peace, leaving a majority ruling against Truth, in favor of man's creation? Even if He had eliminated the vote of Peace, the vote of Truth bears such powerful influence that it still would have overruled the combined votes of Kindness and Charity. Even had the entire Heavenly Court voted against Truth, Truth would outweigh all other votes. For if the world lacked Truth, every attribute would be based on falsehood and would have no genuine value.4

Truth is not only great in its own right; it heralds kindness as well: "Kindness and truth have met together," declared King Dovid.5 God usually responds to man measure for measure. However, when the Jewish People speak truth, God reciprocates with Kindness6 even though kindness and truth are generally opposing characteristics. In order to bestow kindness, God must disregard the not-so-pleasant truth about our actions.

Why is kindness an appropriate reward for truth? God's sole intention in creation was to bestow kindness upon His creation,7 but a precondition for this is the world's continuity according to the guidelines He set up. Since truth is one of the three principal foundations which the world rests upon, a person who maintains an absolute commitment to speaking the truth is paving the way for God to bestow His kindness upon man. He is thus rewarded with abundant kindness.8

[GoIsraelGo!]

Hi Zachor, first this is a great post. Secondly I am not a scholar myself but I would still like to give my general opinion on this.

Personally I think if G-d wanted us to have the answers for how he works, I think we would have known by now.
G-d as you know has everything planned and it has always been that way.
Because G-d is infinite, he has always existed while everything else was created by him. Amazing isn't it?

Many times I have wondered about G-d and why things happen the way they do.
Then I just say to myself " Oh, you're not suppose to know so give it up."

One thing I am always sure of and that is :
G-d does have control of man and his destiny while man is living and choosing between Good and Evil.
I know that sounds strange and contradictory but that is how I see it.

                                                                            

[muman613]

Hi Zachor, first this is a great post. Secondly I am not a scholar myself but I would still like to give my general opinion on this.

Personally I think if G-d wanted us to have the answers for how he works, I think we would have known by now.
G-d as you know has everything planned and it has always been that way.
Because G-d is infinite, he has always existed while everything else was created by him. Amazing isn't it?

Many times I have wondered about G-d and why things happen the way they do.
Then I just say to myself " Oh, you're not suppose to know so give it up."

One thing I am always sure of and that is :
G-d does have control of man and his destiny while man is living and choosing between Good and Evil.
I know that sounds strange and contradictory but that is how I see it.

                                                                            

But a Jew {a religious one} is commanded to Know G-d and to Fear him. This is called Bitachon, or trust in Hashem. Trust is stronger than belief because we must investigate him, and look for him, and to love him, and to praise him. These are the things which I try to do every day. And when you look for him and thank him for everything, then you know he is here with you.

http://www.aish.com/spirituality/foundations/1_-_know_there_is_a_god.asp

 The Six Constant Mitzvot are:

    * Know there is a G-d.
    * Don't believe in other gods.
    * G-d is one.
    * Love G-d.
    * Fear G-d.
    * Don't be misled by your heart and eyes.

INTELLECTUAL KNOWLEDGE OF G-d

The first of the Ten Commandments declares: "I am the Lord your G-d who brought you out of Egypt" (Exodus 20:2).

This is the mitzvah to "Know there is a G-d."

The logic underlying this commandment seems difficult to understand. Someone who already observe G-d's commandments obviously believes in His existence -- so what need is there for a new command to do so? And if someone doesn't know that G-d exists, why should he listen to this command?!

So exactly who is this mitzvah for?

The answer is that we should not believe in G-d "on faith" alone. Investigate the evidence. Get knowledge. Research. Study. Analyze. It is a fundamental principle of Judaism: You have to know, not just believe.



PS: I do not think that man knows what Hashem will do, we only have limited understanding in this age... But our combined wisdom and experience with Hashem gives us a pretty good understanding of his traits.

[GoIsraelGo!]

Very well said Muman! Any man that does not fear G-d is indeed a FOOL.
Your post is very informative and true.


                                            Shalom - Dox   

[Debbie Shafer]

I always thought God forbade them to eat of the tree of knowledge, and the serpent deceived Eve and told her God did not want her to be as smart as he was or to know everything about the Universe.  Satan made her believe God was deceiving her, and he (Satan) was helping her, and she believed Satan, and sucked Adam into the sin, and God showed them they were naked and shamed them.  They were free, prosperous, healthy, and without sin, until Satan deceived them!

It was downhill from there.  Man has not acted wisely in the sight of God.