Author Topic: Rebbe warned about the Ethiopians  (Read 18336 times)

0 Members and 11 Guests are viewing this topic.

Moshe92

  • Guest
Re: Rebbe warned about the Ethiopians
« Reply #75 on: September 01, 2009, 06:29:57 AM »
Somewhat surprising/hypocritical that R.  Miller would state directly a policy opinion (or existential qualifier on a controversial issue) regarding the state of Israel

The opinion can't possibly be well-informed, nor particularly astute. 

Wait, are you allowed to speak about a Rabbi like this on this board? Chaim always warns us not to talk disrespectfully about rabbis, because they are great scholars, and we must show veneration. There are things about their opinions we might not understand.

I sense hostility from you towards the Ashkenazim. What is your own background?

KWRBT was not being disrespectful to Rabbi Miller. He was just respectfully disagreeing with some of Rabbi Miller's ideas. Also, when has he been hostile towards ashkenazim?

Offline Masha

  • Master JTFer
  • ******
  • Posts: 1205
Re: Rebbe warned about the Ethiopians
« Reply #76 on: September 01, 2009, 07:54:52 AM »
Somewhat surprising/hypocritical that R.  Miller would state directly a policy opinion (or existential qualifier on a controversial issue) regarding the state of Israel

The opinion can't possibly be well-informed, nor particularly astute. 

Wait, are you allowed to speak about a Rabbi like this on this board? Chaim always warns us not to talk disrespectfully about rabbis, because they are great scholars, and we must show veneration. There are things about their opinions we might not understand.

I sense hostility from you towards the Ashkenazim. What is your own background?

KWRBT was not being disrespectful to Rabbi Miller. He was just respectfully disagreeing with some of Rabbi Miller's ideas. Also, when has he been hostile towards ashkenazim?

To say that his opinion is not astute does not seem respectful to me. It implies that th Rabbi is not intelligent enough. As for the Ashkenazim, I can't point to a specific quote. Perhaps my impression is inaccurate. But I am surprised by the vehemance of his response. Why be so hostile to such an opinion by a respected Rabbi? Strange.

Offline Masha

  • Master JTFer
  • ******
  • Posts: 1205
Re: Rebbe warned about the Ethiopians
« Reply #77 on: September 01, 2009, 08:28:02 AM »
There is something that I want to say, but it's hard for me to articulate. Maybe I haven't thought it through enough myself yet. But I'll make a first attempt.

There is something suspect, too contemporary and leftist, in the current propensity toward "culturalism" and anti-racial-solidarity and affinity mentality. It is not a matter of principle, but one of degree. I think that the pendulum has swung too far. It should return to somewhere closer to the middle.

Nobody argues that Judaism is a religion. Granted. But it is a religion grafted onto a specific tribe connected by blood ties - the tribe that has not lost its racial, blood-related continuity since ancient times. Looking at Jewish faces is strong enough evidence. But today's DNA studies provide irrefutable evidence that Jews are related and form an ethnic group.

Now, I wholeheartedly agree with the possibility open to non-Jews to be converted to Judaism. Surely, if a family can adopt a child, who is not blood-related to them, then a national family should be able to accept new members, just as nation states give new citizenships to foreigners. But these conversions should be done on an individual basis. Orthodox Rabbis should make it difficult to convert (which they do today, as I understand). The convertee must be "tested," as it were. The Rabbi should make sure that this person really wants to convert, that he is a Gentile born with the Jewish soul. The rabbi should first say "no" several times and then agree reluctantly (which they also do, as I understand). As far as I know, Orthodox conversions take between 6 and 10 years. And that is as should be!

Who are these Ethiopians? Who converted them en masse? Rabbi Miller is asking these questions. His doubts are warranted, it seems to me. Genetic studies show that Ethiopian Jews are not as closely related to the Jewish genotype as the Ashkenazi and Sefardic Jews between themselves.

Should their Jewishness be recognized? I don't know, I am not a Rabbi. But I am concerned about the hysterical reaction to this Rabbi's comment. I have often noticed that it is people of mixed blood who become bent out of shape at every mention of ethnicity and blood ties. This is a very modern attitude, and I don't like it. And this will happen more and more if nations become more and more mixed. I think we should find a golden middle.

And finally, I find such vehement insistence on the "proposition nation" aspect of Judaism personally threatening to my sense of identity. If everybody is a Jew, then who am I? Chopped liver? If my uninterrupted lineage from Abraham-Isaac-Jacob doesn't matter, if there is no name for who I am and how I feel towards people who look like me and share my genetic heritage, then I am a non-person, a non-entity. No, I insist that a Jew is as much of an ethnic designation as it is a religious one, and I insist that my ethnicity matters! It was very heartening to find that a real Orthodox Rabbi feels similarly. We are barraged today with liberal and politically correct rabbinical opinions. Thank G-d, there are dissenters!
« Last Edit: September 01, 2009, 08:42:57 AM by Masha »

Offline wonga66

  • Master JTFer
  • ******
  • Posts: 1039
Re: Rebbe warned about the Ethiopians
« Reply #78 on: September 01, 2009, 10:10:31 AM »

As can be seen here Rabbi Miller was in a class of his own
 
 
That the Ethiopians don't know about Tefillin, Hebrew, Aramaic, do not possess the Sefer Torah, do not use Tallits, Tzitzis or Mezuzos, observe the Sabbath without any light, fire or heated food, and keep the Festivals on different dates and in styles markedly different from our own, perform animal sacrifices forbidden by the rabbis since the destruction of the Temple and practiced a crude form of Shechitah, not in accordance with the sophisticated and painless method laid down in the Codes, making no ritual distinction between meat and milk, circumcised boys omitting the vital splitting of the per'iah membrane, they subject girls to clitoridectomy, which is repugnant to Judaism, but is common to most African tribes, both operations on boys and girls being performed by women, practice monasticism, have a theology which is a mixture of pagan, Judaic and Christian elements, have no knowledge of the Oral Law or of Talmudic interpretation, allow the title and performance of Cohanic functions to persons of non-Aharonic descent, do not know about Chalitzah, Get is unknown to them and matrimonial and genealogical records non-existent, making it impossible to find out which of them is a real Cohen or how many illicit marriages have been contracted among them etc., give pause for thought that when Rabbi Miller called them "plain Ethiopian blacks", he's probably right!

Offline muman613

  • Platinum JTF Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 29958
  • All souls praise Hashem, Hallelukah!
    • muman613 Torah Wisdom
Re: Rebbe warned about the Ethiopians
« Reply #79 on: September 01, 2009, 10:27:39 AM »

One of the greatest tragedies that I have seen is when the Torah is used, not to illuminate the darkness of this world, but to defend some shameful idea that the Torah really has nothing to do with. One of the most shameful uses of the Torah has been to claim that one of the three great families of humanity is nothing more than a slave to the rest.

The idea of slavery has become associated in everyone's mind with absolute evil. Nobody questions that slavery is evil incarnate. But where does this idea come from? Chaim said that slavery is not at all against the Torah and not necessarily immoral. It depends on how you treat the slave. This to me implies that when the righteous Jewish state will be restored, the rabbis might decide to re-institute slavery.


There are several theories offered to explain this strange event. One theory is that since Ham had already been blessed by G-d Noach was unable to curse him and so cursed his son instead. This is very strange if Noach were only naked. Cursing someone with slavery for seeing their nakedness does not sound just for someone as righteous as Noach.

It sounds like the author is judging by today's standards.

There are two primary theories about what happened. The first is that seeing his father’s nakedness Ham had an illicit affair with Noach while he slept. This gruesome scene does not seem to fit with the curse. The punishment must be equal to the crime. The second theory seems more likely. Ham, seeing his father’s nakedness realized that if Noach had another son, a fourth son, that the world would be split between four peoples and not three. Realizing this, Ham thought it best if Noach were not able to produce any more heirs and castrated his father.

As a result Noach cursed Canaan to be a slave to his brothers. A slave does not rule, everything the slave owns is actually the master’s. The reasoning behind this explanation was that just as Ham had castrated his father Noach to prevent a fourth son of Noach from having a share in the world; Noach would curse Ham’s fourth son, therefore preventing him from having a true share in this world.

This is the first time I hear about the castration. This is not in the Torah, right? Is this a standard Talmudic interpretation?

Masha,

The Torah defines a different type of slavery for Jewish servants and gentile servants. A Jew who finds him/herself in dire financial straits and ends up owing money can sell himself into servitude. This servitude is not forever, it can only last seven years before the slave must be released. The laws of the Eved Ivri is the 1st mitzvah of the Parasha of Mishpatim {I remember because this is my Bar Mitzvah portion}.

And yes, the castration idea is a standard Talmudic interpretation...

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Masha

  • Master JTFer
  • ******
  • Posts: 1205
Re: Rebbe warned about the Ethiopians
« Reply #80 on: September 01, 2009, 12:56:40 PM »


And yes, the castration idea is a standard Talmudic interpretation...



Wow, I had no idea. What an evil, evil son!

Offline Masha

  • Master JTFer
  • ******
  • Posts: 1205
Re: Rebbe warned about the Ethiopians
« Reply #81 on: September 01, 2009, 01:00:14 PM »

As can be seen here Rabbi Miller was in a class of his own


He seems quite knowledgeable about science. Very impressive.

Offline Masha

  • Master JTFer
  • ******
  • Posts: 1205
Re: Rebbe warned about the Ethiopians
« Reply #82 on: September 01, 2009, 01:02:21 PM »
That the Ethiopians don't know about Tefillin, Hebrew, Aramaic, do not possess the Sefer Torah, do not use Tallits, Tzitzis or Mezuzos, observe the Sabbath without any light, fire or heated food, and keep the Festivals on different dates and in styles markedly different from our own, perform animal sacrifices forbidden by the rabbis since the destruction of the Temple and practiced a crude form of Shechitah, not in accordance with the sophisticated and painless method laid down in the Codes, making no ritual distinction between meat and milk, circumcised boys omitting the vital splitting of the per'iah membrane, they subject girls to clitoridectomy, which is repugnant to Judaism, but is common to most African tribes, both operations on boys and girls being performed by women, practice monasticism, have a theology which is a mixture of pagan, Judaic and Christian elements, have no knowledge of the Oral Law or of Talmudic interpretation, allow the title and performance of Cohanic functions to persons of non-Aharonic descent, do not know about Chalitzah, Get is unknown to them and matrimonial and genealogical records non-existent, making it impossible to find out which of them is a real Cohen or how many illicit marriages have been contracted among them etc., give pause for thought that when Rabbi Miller called them "plain Ethiopian blacks", he's probably right!

Now, are you talking about the falasha Jews or about Falash-Mura?

Offline wonga66

  • Master JTFer
  • ******
  • Posts: 1039
Re: Rebbe warned about the Ethiopians
« Reply #83 on: September 01, 2009, 03:56:21 PM »
This is talking about the Falashas who came over in the 80s.
 
The Falashas at least had some Judaic elements to them.
 
The incoming Falash Mura immigrants are totally Xtianised. They look much more grob and tougher than the more refined Falashas.
 
Both communities hate each other, each viewing the others as traitors. As was posted in another thread, true racism (including against eachother) is only to be found amongst Blacks (as per their ancestor Ham=Cham="hot"=hotblooded and hotheaded)!
 
If these Israeli Blacks can be succesfully Judaised (as opposed to "Israelified"!) they may yet become a useful element, and they are easily won over to Kahanism.
 
Unfortunately due to the stupid Israeli leftist social-engineers, suicides, disease death rates, drugs, jailings and family murders are very high among Falashas and Falash Muras.

Offline Masha

  • Master JTFer
  • ******
  • Posts: 1205
Re: Rebbe warned about the Ethiopians
« Reply #84 on: September 01, 2009, 04:48:29 PM »
This is talking about the Falashas who came over in the 80s.

I don't know all the terms you were mentioning, but I know some of them. And the discrepancies do sound very serious to me. It sounds like this was a political decision to bring these people to Israel - a way, perhaps, for the Sephardim to sock it to the Ashkenazim, i.e. part of the underground struggle between the two factions. I think that when the righteous government comes to power in Israel, it should be investigated thoroughly if the Falasha belong in Israel and are part of the Israeli nation. I think that the righeous leadership should not be afraid to implement politically bold decisions and undo past mistakes. If Falasha are not true Jews, perhaps they could be allocated some land on the border with the historical Greater Israel ordained by HaShem. Perhaps they could even become an autonomous territory within Israel and won't have to be deported back to Ethiopia.

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12581
Re: Rebbe warned about the Ethiopians
« Reply #85 on: September 01, 2009, 08:28:15 PM »
Somewhat surprising/hypocritical that R.  Miller would state directly a policy opinion (or existential qualifier on a controversial issue) regarding the state of Israel

The opinion can't possibly be well-informed, nor particularly astute. 

Wait, are you allowed to speak about a Rabbi like this on this board? Chaim always warns us not to talk disrespectfully about rabbis, because they are great scholars, and we must show veneration. There are things about their opinions we might not understand.

I sense hostility from you towards the Ashkenazim. What is your own background?

 I don't believe that was disrespectful.    How can a galuth rabbi give his opinions about Jews and Judaism in Eretz Yisrael?   How can it possibly be well-informed or exacting unless that rabbi transplants himself into Israel?

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12581
Re: Rebbe warned about the Ethiopians
« Reply #86 on: September 01, 2009, 08:31:20 PM »
Somewhat surprising/hypocritical that R.  Miller would state directly a policy opinion (or existential qualifier on a controversial issue) regarding the state of Israel

The opinion can't possibly be well-informed, nor particularly astute. 

Wait, are you allowed to speak about a Rabbi like this on this board? Chaim always warns us not to talk disrespectfully about rabbis, because they are great scholars, and we must show veneration. There are things about their opinions we might not understand.

I sense hostility from you towards the Ashkenazim. What is your own background?

KWRBT was not being disrespectful to Rabbi Miller. He was just respectfully disagreeing with some of Rabbi Miller's ideas. Also, when has he been hostile towards ashkenazim?

To say that his opinion is not astute does not seem respectful to me. It implies that th Rabbi is not intelligent enough. As for the Ashkenazim, I can't point to a specific quote. Perhaps my impression is inaccurate. But I am surprised by the vehemance of his response. Why be so hostile to such an opinion by a respected Rabbi? Strange.

I , you, and anyone else, are allowed to criticize an opinion.   Because an opinion is only an opinion.   If we can't criticize or think critically about opinions, then we are done for.   That means we have sacrificed our intellects.   That is a grave sin.   By saying an opinion was not very astute, I am expressing my dismay at what I heard.    It was a generalization, and I'm sure if someone pointed out to R. Miller where he went wrong with that, he would admit right away he didn't mean it like that.

Why am I so "hostile" ?   I'm not hostile at all, but certainly I am vigorously refuting galrat's notion that R. Miller supports racism against black Jews.    This cherrypicked quote might superficially seem to support him, but it doesn't.   I think it is important to make that clear, so call it hostile if you want, but it is just attention to detail.

The fact that you think I have something against Ashkenazim is a joke.   I AM ASHKENAZI

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12581
Re: Rebbe warned about the Ethiopians
« Reply #87 on: September 01, 2009, 08:35:00 PM »

Who are these Ethiopians? Who converted them en masse? Rabbi Miller is asking these questions. His doubts are warranted, it seems to me. Genetic studies show that Ethiopian Jews are not as closely related to the Jewish genotype as the Ashkenazi and Sefardic Jews between themselves.


LOL.   What a joke.    He is "asking questions" ?   No, he wasn't.   He stated emphatically "They're not Jews."   That's not asking questions.   You are making excuses for racism against black Jews.  That's all you're doing.   You are paying lipservice to galrat's nonsense.    He stated "They're not Jews."   Unlike galrat, I do NOT think Rabbi Miller meant all of them, and if pointed out to him he was making a generalization he would have admitted he erred.   Either that or he was completely ignorant about that issue and was just jammering about it anyway.   But in my respect for Rabbi Miller, I do not suspect that was the case, I think it was an honest mistake.   And that's hostile?   You are hostile toward black Jews.

Genetic studies?    Are you serious?  You need genetic studies to show you that dark black ethiopian Jews are different genetically from ashkenazim and sephardim?    You can't tell by looking?    Unfortunately for you and galrat, Judaism and matrilineal descent and/or gerus, does NOT go by genetics.    Also unfortunate for the stormfronters, or those with "jewish father" but not Jewish mother.   Sorry.

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12581
Re: Rebbe warned about the Ethiopians
« Reply #88 on: September 01, 2009, 08:35:35 PM »

As can be seen here Rabbi Miller was in a class of his own


He seems quite knowledgeable about science. Very impressive.

.........
I will refrain from comment.

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12581
Re: Rebbe warned about the Ethiopians
« Reply #89 on: September 01, 2009, 08:36:10 PM »
That the Ethiopians don't know about Tefillin, Hebrew, Aramaic, do not possess the Sefer Torah, do not use Tallits, Tzitzis or Mezuzos, observe the Sabbath without any light, fire or heated food, and keep the Festivals on different dates and in styles markedly different from our own, perform animal sacrifices forbidden by the rabbis since the destruction of the Temple and practiced a crude form of Shechitah, not in accordance with the sophisticated and painless method laid down in the Codes, making no ritual distinction between meat and milk, circumcised boys omitting the vital splitting of the per'iah membrane, they subject girls to clitoridectomy, which is repugnant to Judaism, but is common to most African tribes, both operations on boys and girls being performed by women, practice monasticism, have a theology which is a mixture of pagan, Judaic and Christian elements, have no knowledge of the Oral Law or of Talmudic interpretation, allow the title and performance of Cohanic functions to persons of non-Aharonic descent, do not know about Chalitzah, Get is unknown to them and matrimonial and genealogical records non-existent, making it impossible to find out which of them is a real Cohen or how many illicit marriages have been contracted among them etc., give pause for thought that when Rabbi Miller called them "plain Ethiopian blacks", he's probably right!

Now, are you talking about the falasha Jews or about Falash-Mura?

He's talking about all black Jews.   He wants them in ghettos or not in Israel at all.    Did you not read any of this thread?   And you have the gall to call me hostile?

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12581
Re: Rebbe warned about the Ethiopians
« Reply #90 on: September 01, 2009, 08:40:32 PM »

One of the greatest tragedies that I have seen is when the Torah is used, not to illuminate the darkness of this world, but to defend some shameful idea that the Torah really has nothing to do with. One of the most shameful uses of the Torah has been to claim that one of the three great families of humanity is nothing more than a slave to the rest.

The idea of slavery has become associated in everyone's mind with absolute evil. Nobody questions that slavery is evil incarnate. But where does this idea come from? Chaim said that slavery is not at all against the Torah and not necessarily immoral. It depends on how you treat the slave. This to me implies that when the righteous Jewish state will be restored, the rabbis might decide to re-institute slavery.


Rav Kook explains that slavery itself as an institution in society was an evil thing, but it was part of daily life in ancient times.  It couldn't just be forbidden out of existence overnight.   So rules about how slavery should work (including proper treatment of slaves and awarding them freedom in different circumstances etc) were put into place so that slavery as an institution would be phased out of society.    That was actually part of the appeal of Judaism to many Roman nonJewish slaves.   There is no question that the position of a slave is not a celebrated thing in the bible and that slavery itself is portrayed negatively.   That Torah did not outlaw it altogether was a concession to man's nature and to current societal circumstances.   But surely, it is not maintained/proliferated by the Torah system.

I think to say slavery will make a comeback is rather unbelievable.   Maybe, MAYBE on individual basis if a person is in debt or can't provide for himself etc and he offers himself up as one, maybe in that case.   But as an institution?  Keep dreaming.

Offline Yochai

  • Senior JTFer
  • ****
  • Posts: 254
Re: Rebbe warned about the Ethiopians
« Reply #91 on: September 01, 2009, 08:52:51 PM »
I am sorry, but I cannot see how people are calling Galileerat a racist.

His tendentious and strong language, as well as his uncited ridiculous claims may be upsetting, but as shown from the quote put up earlier in regarding to Ethiopians, he is not racist against them.

Furthermore, doubting that Ethiopian Jews are not JEwish is by no means racist. Otherwise The Rebbe ZT"L, Elazar Shach ZT"L, Reb Moshe ZT"L, and Rabbi Elyashiv are all racists.

I do not sense any hostility on behalf of KWRBT towards Rabbi Miller.  It seems that he is just fed up with Galileerat, and that should not be misconstrued for disrespecting a Rabbi.  On the other hand,  there was no reason for the "I refrain from comment", which does border on disrespect.

Lastly, I find it odd that there are people here claiming to be concerned with racism towards Ethiopian Jews (Whom I believe many are true Jews nowadays), when there is a thread called "THings a blakc person would never say", which is much more offensive to Ethiopian Jews, who are undoubtedly black.
Do you not realize how offensive that would be to an Ethiopian Jews (Some of who are very nationalistic)?  They are black, whether you like it or not, and good luck attracting them towards Kahanism with threads like that.

When I was in Israel I knew some Ethiopians, and I still talk to a couple.  When I told them to go visit the the Hebrew JTF forum, they replied to me that they were hurt by some of the language used pertaining to black people.  Even though this pain was was somewhat unjustified (as the language referred to Obama YS"V), one must understand that as an Ethiopian Jew, when you have other Jews calling you [censored] ger or Kushon, it can be very painful, and you become sensitive to the opinions of fellow Jews, who you just want to be accepted by.

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12581
Re: Rebbe warned about the Ethiopians
« Reply #92 on: September 01, 2009, 09:01:12 PM »
I hear that.   

I didn't make that thread, so I can't see why I can't be concerned for Ethiopians just because that thread exists on this site.   

Anyway the people are not talking about "anyone with black skin."  They are really talking about African Americans, or at least the losers out of them.  I already have said that thread is too general to say that about all African Americans.   Even so, it obviously has nothing to do with blacks in another country or from anywhere else, it is specific culturally to blacks in America and how some/many of them act.   But yes, I can see why that stuff is really offensive to a black person who is really a good person, or a black Jew who wants acceptance from other Jews.

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12581
Re: Rebbe warned about the Ethiopians
« Reply #93 on: September 01, 2009, 09:01:47 PM »
At the same time, no one is making that thread in the name of Torah.   Galileerat has done otherwise.

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12581
Re: Rebbe warned about the Ethiopians
« Reply #94 on: September 01, 2009, 09:04:22 PM »

Furthermore, doubting that Ethiopian Jews are not JEwish is by no means racist. Otherwise The Rebbe ZT"L, Elazar Shach ZT"L, Reb Moshe ZT"L, and Rabbi Elyashiv are all racists.


But Reb Moshe ZT"L or anyone else NEVER doubted after they went through a gerus for the sake of safek.   He doubted BEFORE the safek gerus.   I take exception to the "after-the-fact" questioning of these Jews' jewishness.  Just like you say, they just want acceptance like anyone else.    And when it's 'after-the-fact,' then I think racism is in play.    Furthermore when a person comes up with wacky theories in order to establish "kushite-only towns with kushite mayors" I also think racism is in play or at least it's reasonable to think so.

Offline Yochai

  • Senior JTFer
  • ****
  • Posts: 254
Re: Rebbe warned about the Ethiopians
« Reply #95 on: September 01, 2009, 09:10:15 PM »

Furthermore, doubting that Ethiopian Jews are not JEwish is by no means racist. Otherwise The Rebbe ZT"L, Elazar Shach ZT"L, Reb Moshe ZT"L, and Rabbi Elyashiv are all racists.


But Reb Moshe ZT"L or anyone else NEVER doubted after they went through a gerus for the sake of safek.   He doubted BEFORE the safek gerus.   I take exception to the "after-the-fact" questioning of these Jews' jewishness.  Just like you say, they just want acceptance like anyone else.    And when it's 'after-the-fact,' then I think racism is in play.    Furthermore when a person comes up with wacky theories in order to establish "kushite-only towns with kushite mayors" I also think racism is in play or at least it's reasonable to think so.

In regards to Galilleerat, I think you have to look at the possibility that he is not racist, and that much like all of his posts, it was simply his dementia that inspired this thread.
Not racist, just crazy.

As for the black thread, I completely understood it, which is why I thought it was funny(Maybe they should make a humour section), but my understanding of it is much more advanced than an Ethiopian Jew, who would simply look at it and feel upset because of it.

To make an analogous example.  Imagine on a conservative forum there was a thread "things a jew would never say", and it was only making fun of leftist Liberal Jews.  You obviously are not a member of that subgroup, but would you still not feel offended that they were attributing this behaviour to a person such as yourself, simply because you too, are Jewish?

Offline Masha

  • Master JTFer
  • ******
  • Posts: 1205
Re: Rebbe warned about the Ethiopians
« Reply #96 on: September 02, 2009, 08:24:33 PM »

One of the greatest tragedies that I have seen is when the Torah is used, not to illuminate the darkness of this world, but to defend some shameful idea that the Torah really has nothing to do with. One of the most shameful uses of the Torah has been to claim that one of the three great families of humanity is nothing more than a slave to the rest.

The idea of slavery has become associated in everyone's mind with absolute evil. Nobody questions that slavery is evil incarnate. But where does this idea come from? Chaim said that slavery is not at all against the Torah and not necessarily immoral. It depends on how you treat the slave. This to me implies that when the righteous Jewish state will be restored, the rabbis might decide to re-institute slavery.


Rav Kook explains that slavery itself as an institution in society was an evil thing, but it was part of daily life in ancient times.  It couldn't just be forbidden out of existence overnight.   So rules about how slavery should work (including proper treatment of slaves and awarding them freedom in different circumstances etc) were put into place so that slavery as an institution would be phased out of society.    That was actually part of the appeal of Judaism to many Roman nonJewish slaves.   There is no question that the position of a slave is not a celebrated thing in the bible and that slavery itself is portrayed negatively.   That Torah did not outlaw it altogether was a concession to man's nature and to current societal circumstances.   But surely, it is not maintained/proliferated by the Torah system.

I think to say slavery will make a comeback is rather unbelievable.   Maybe, MAYBE on individual basis if a person is in debt or can't provide for himself etc and he offers himself up as one, maybe in that case.   But as an institution?  Keep dreaming.
What exactly do the Torah or Talmud say about the evilness of slavery? Do they call it evil?

Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 23384
  • Real Kahanist
Re: Rebbe warned about the Ethiopians
« Reply #97 on: September 02, 2009, 08:30:44 PM »
Maybe he is a Spermfronter who is trying to argue that Jews view themselves as a "race" that dislikes other races.

Offline Yochai

  • Senior JTFer
  • ****
  • Posts: 254
Re: Rebbe warned about the Ethiopians
« Reply #98 on: September 02, 2009, 08:34:38 PM »
Maybe he is a Spermfronter who is trying to argue that Jews view themselves as a "race" that dislikes other races.

I think it is pretty obvious from his knowledge of Torah that this character is clearly a Jew and not a stormfronter.  I looked at some of my favourited Kahanist videos on youtube, and noticed that they are from an account called Mifletzet, which is what you guys keep referring to him as.  If that is the case, I can tell you that it seems to me this user is simply a Kahanist with a case of dementia.

Moshe92

  • Guest
Re: Rebbe warned about the Ethiopians
« Reply #99 on: September 02, 2009, 08:37:13 PM »
If that is the case, I can tell you that it seems to me this user is simply a Kahanist with a case of dementia.

I think you're right about that.