On Shabbat no fire?

[SW]

I read on Wikipedia that it's not allowed to spark a fire. Is it true? How do you inflame a candle or the menorah?

[Zelhar]

I think in Shabat Hanuka the menorah is lit before the Shabat begins and the day after it is lit after the Shabat ends. The Shabat Candles are lit just before Shabat, actually I think an hour before the Shabat actually begins.

But it is true that sparking fire is forbidden on Shabat and based on that rule even turning on lights or electrical appliances is also forbidden.

[Raulmarrio2000]

Not lighting a fire is one the 39 prohibitions for Jews during Shabat. They can have a fire lit before Shabat begins. But a Gentile MUST NOT keep Shabat. It's forbidden and even dangerous for his soul and his life!!! If you are a Gentile you can choose a day in the week to rest from your job, you can choose the Seventh Day, in remembarnce of the Creation if you want, but you MUST NEVER do the ritual Jewish rest neither on Saturdays nor on anyother day.

[SW]

So if I would do Shabbat it's dangerous for my soul? We Christians have the Sunday.

[Zelhar]

So if I would do Shabbat it's dangerous for my soul? We Christians have the Sunday.

I think from a Jewish view even if a gentile is trying to keep Shabbat he must at least do one violation like turning on a light for example.

[SW]

So if I would do Shabbat it's dangerous for my soul? We Christians have the Sunday.

I think from a Jewish view even if a gentile is trying to keep Shabbat he must at least do one violation like turning on a light for example.

That's true... The Jewish laws are a bit harder than the Christian ones. We can turning a light on Sunday.

But if I want to convert I have to start early

[Zelhar]

So if I would do Shabbat it's dangerous for my soul? We Christians have the Sunday.

I think from a Jewish view even if a gentile is trying to keep Shabbat he must at least do one violation like turning on a light for example.

That's true... The Jewish laws are a bit harder than the Christian ones. We can turning a light on Sunday.

But if I want to convert I have to start early

I think prospective converts get instruction about this thing, but from what I've heard until they are converted they practice observing shabbat but they need to break it once at least.

[SW]

That's the problem if you live in a Christian country. I have to work often on Saturdays. So I would break it and I can't say "I am Jewish, I am not allowed to work on Saturday". They would laugh about me.

[Raulmarrio2000]

1- Celebrating Shabbat, even doing some rites or commemorations with the intention of Jewish Shabbat is FORBIDDEN to a Gentile and it is a sin. It is taking something holy which was commanded by H" only to Israelites. A prospetctive convert CAN do some Shabbat-like things to practise, but must break it at least once. Any other Gentile MUST NEVER do anything with the intention of even commemorating Shabbat.
A Gentile can take a day free from his job, this is not Sabbat as far as he does not intend to abstain from ritual work (lighting fire, turning on/off the light,carrying objetcs, etc).
A Gentile can choose the Seventh Day as he free day, if he wishes, and can also commemorate the Creation, without the intention of Shabbat. He must not even call this day a Shabbat.
2- Besides the prohibition for a Gentile to do any rest or rite regarding Jewish Shabbat (because it would be a great prophanity, since it is a Signal of the Israelite Covenant and not of the Noahide one), there is another issue:
If a Gentile completes or intends to complete a full Shabbat in the Jewish manner, his life is in danger. In this case it's not only the prophanity of imitating some exclusivley Jewish mitzvah (which would be a sin which could be punished), but also a direct consequence of his fully resigning and renouncing his ability to interact with Nature. In this way the Gentile would cut his identity and enter a spiritual/mental state which may lead to a direct physical harm endargering his life.
However if a Gentile unintentionally happens to keep all the rules of Shabbat, for example he slept all day and didn't break any rule, or he didn't need or feel like doing anything that day, that was not a Shabbat. He is not in danger.

[muman613]

Raulmarrio2000,

It would be helpful if you provided references to the Talmud or Scripture which backs up your statements. I believe you are correct because I have found the sources for this. But whenever one makes these kinds of statements it is best to provide sources...

[muman613]

Here are some references:

http://www.torah.org/advanced/mikra/5757/sh/dt.57.2.09.html?print=1
These questions lead us to a larger one regarding Shabbat as presented in our Parashah. Up until this point, the commands regarding Shabbat (in the Mahn and in the Ten Statements) were framed in terms of a "gift from G-d" (Mahn) or testifying to G-d as the Creator (the Ten Statements). In addition, the selection in the Ten Statements would seem to imply that Shabbat should ideally be observed by all of humanity, as G-d created us all and we should all testify to that fact. Yet, in our Parashah, Shabbat is clearly presented as a uniquely Israelite practice, one which does not "belong" to other nations. (Indeed, the Rabbis stated that a non-Jew should not observe Shabbat - see BT Sanhedrin 58b, MT M'lakhim 10:9). Besides this "nationalistic shift", several new terms are introduced in our Parashah:

http://www.learningtorah.org/DvarTorah/ViewDvarTorah.aspx?dtID=717
The Talmud (Sanhedrin 58b) points out that it is not permissible for a non-Jew to observe Shabbos. The Zohar explains this law by way of a parable: the maid in a royal palace has the keys to all of the rooms, and is expected to keep everything in good shape. However, when the king is having an intimate encounter in the bedroom with the queen, if the maid will barge in at that time, she will have her head handed to her. Shabbos is the day on which we (the Jewish people and Hakadosh Baruch Hu) celebrate our wedding anniversary, and there is much more intimacy than all week long, and non-Jews intruding on that privacy are likened to the maid in the parable.

http://www.ravkooktorah.org/BSHALA64.htm
The Sabbath commemorates the creation of the universe. However, this mitzvah was not given to all of humanity. The Sabbath is a special gift for the Jewish people [Sanhedrin 58b]. Why?

http://www.shemayisrael.co.il/parsha/fleisher/archives/chukas63.htm
Ch. 23, v. 9: "Hen om l'vodod yishkone uvagoyim lo yis'chashov" - Behold a nation that rests alone and is not calculated among the nations - We can interpret the words, "hen om l'vodod yishkone" to allude to the ruling that only the bnei Yisroel may have a day of rest, and gentiles may not even designate a day of rest (gemara Sanhedrin 58b). If a gentile sets aside a regular day for refraining from creative activities, "m'lochos," he is deserving of death, as per the above gemara. This is also alluded to in the words "lo yis'chashov," whose letters when transposed spell "shovas lo chai." (Rabbi Noach Mindes in Parpro'os L'chochmoh)

[rhodescholar]

I think in Shabat Hanuka the menorah is lit before the Shabat begins and the day after it is lit after the Shabat ends. The Shabat Candles are lit just before Shabat, actually I think an hour before the Shabat actually begins.

But it is true that sparking fire is forbidden on Shabat and based on that rule even turning on lights or electrical appliances is also forbidden.

I do not want to derail the thread, but this is one of those situations that has seriously drawn me away from judaism in a strong way.

There is no connection whatsoever to turning a light on and "starting a fire."

The wire inside an incandescent bulb is not on fire, and what will scholarly rabbis say in 10 years when organic LED lights, which are chemical compounds, are the primary light source in most homes?  Will they also be banned for some stretched-beyond-belief reasoning?

This is an area that has driven me to consider conspiracy theories about my native religion, where, as a means of rabbis showing how important, valuable, and knowledgeable they were, they would interpret issues in this manner, which made no sense 100 years ago, or today.

[Moshe92]

I think in Shabat Hanuka the menorah is lit before the Shabat begins and the day after it is lit after the Shabat ends. The Shabat Candles are lit just before Shabat, actually I think an hour before the Shabat actually begins.

But it is true that sparking fire is forbidden on Shabat and based on that rule even turning on lights or electrical appliances is also forbidden.

I do not want to derail the thread, but this is one of those situations that has seriously drawn me away from judaism in a strong way.

There is no connection whatsoever to turning a light on and "starting a fire."

The wire inside an incandescent bulb is not on fire, and what will scholarly rabbis say in 10 years when organic LED lights, which are chemical compounds, are the primary light source in most homes?  Will they also be banned for some stretched-beyond-belief reasoning?

This is an area that has driven me to consider conspiracy theories about my native religion, where, as a means of rabbis showing how important, valuable, and knowledgeable they were, they would interpret issues in this manner, which made no sense 100 years ago, or today.

Lights serve the same purpose as fires. The fact that one is building a circuit by turning on a light may also go against the rules of shabbat.

[rhodescholar]

I think in Shabat Hanuka the menorah is lit before the Shabat begins and the day after it is lit after the Shabat ends. The Shabat Candles are lit just before Shabat, actually I think an hour before the Shabat actually begins.

But it is true that sparking fire is forbidden on Shabat and based on that rule even turning on lights or electrical appliances is also forbidden.

I do not want to derail the thread, but this is one of those situations that has seriously drawn me away from judaism in a strong way.

There is no connection whatsoever to turning a light on and "starting a fire."

The wire inside an incandescent bulb is not on fire, and what will scholarly rabbis say in 10 years when organic LED lights, which are chemical compounds, are the primary light source in most homes?  Will they also be banned for some stretched-beyond-belief reasoning?

This is an area that has driven me to consider conspiracy theories about my native religion, where, as a means of rabbis showing how important, valuable, and knowledgeable they were, they would interpret issues in this manner, which made no sense 100 years ago, or today.

Lights serve the same purpose as fires. The fact that one is building a circuit by turning on a light may also go against the rules of shabbat.

"Rules of shabbat"?  What does that mean, a questioning person is supposed to be a child and just accept "that that is the way things are"?

If that is your line of reasoning, it should not be surprising that people are abandoning religion in droves...

[rhodescholar]

A glowing filament counts as a fire and completing a circuit counts as creating something.  I don't see how Jews not turning lights on would make people adopt conspiracy theories against their own people.

"Creates" something?  When I sneeze, I create air bubbles - should sneezing be against shabbat as well?

My point was that the "law" of not turning on lights on shabbat was purely arbitrary in my mind, and the fact that recently, some israeli rabbis now, all of a sudden, claim that even elevators that stop on each floor are not "kosher" is an example of what I am referring to.

[Moshe92]

I think in Shabat Hanuka the menorah is lit before the Shabat begins and the day after it is lit after the Shabat ends. The Shabat Candles are lit just before Shabat, actually I think an hour before the Shabat actually begins.

But it is true that sparking fire is forbidden on Shabat and based on that rule even turning on lights or electrical appliances is also forbidden.

I do not want to derail the thread, but this is one of those situations that has seriously drawn me away from judaism in a strong way.

There is no connection whatsoever to turning a light on and "starting a fire."

The wire inside an incandescent bulb is not on fire, and what will scholarly rabbis say in 10 years when organic LED lights, which are chemical compounds, are the primary light source in most homes?  Will they also be banned for some stretched-beyond-belief reasoning?

This is an area that has driven me to consider conspiracy theories about my native religion, where, as a means of rabbis showing how important, valuable, and knowledgeable they were, they would interpret issues in this manner, which made no sense 100 years ago, or today.

Lights serve the same purpose as fires. The fact that one is building a circuit by turning on a light may also go against the rules of shabbat.

"Rules of shabbat"?  What does that mean, a questioning person is supposed to be a child and just accept "that that is the way things are"?

If that is your line of reasoning, it should not be surprising that people are abandoning religion in droves...

Of course there are laws for shabbat just as there are laws for the United States.

[The One and Only Mo]

Shabbat candles are lit and once they are, shabbos has started. There are candle lighting times each week. Hashem gave us laws, whether or not we understand them, we have to keep them.

[Zelhar]

I think in Shabat Hanuka the menorah is lit before the Shabat begins and the day after it is lit after the Shabat ends. The Shabat Candles are lit just before Shabat, actually I think an hour before the Shabat actually begins.

But it is true that sparking fire is forbidden on Shabat and based on that rule even turning on lights or electrical appliances is also forbidden.

I do not want to derail the thread, but this is one of those situations that has seriously drawn me away from judaism in a strong way.

There is no connection whatsoever to turning a light on and "starting a fire."

The wire inside an incandescent bulb is not on fire, and what will scholarly rabbis say in 10 years when organic LED lights, which are chemical compounds, are the primary light source in most homes?  Will they also be banned for some stretched-beyond-belief reasoning?

This is an area that has driven me to consider conspiracy theories about my native religion, where, as a means of rabbis showing how important, valuable, and knowledgeable they were, they would interpret issues in this manner, which made no sense 100 years ago, or today.

Hey no one is pulling a gun at you. I am secular myself so of course I don't apply most of these rules in my life. However I do try to find out the logic behind the rules. In this particularity, the work is done by switching on electricity. It doesn't matter if you switch on a light, a TV, or Blender. By switching electricity on you create a spark. In Israel there is the additional issue of Jewish people working at the power plants and on the grid during shabbat.

My opinion is you can either believe it or not, accept it or not, but don't try to invent new rules that overtake Torah law just to make it easier for you. That's like cheating and that's what really ruins our people.

[The One and Only Mo]

I think in Shabat Hanuka the menorah is lit before the Shabat begins and the day after it is lit after the Shabat ends. The Shabat Candles are lit just before Shabat, actually I think an hour before the Shabat actually begins.

But it is true that sparking fire is forbidden on Shabat and based on that rule even turning on lights or electrical appliances is also forbidden.

I do not want to derail the thread, but this is one of those situations that has seriously drawn me away from judaism in a strong way.

There is no connection whatsoever to turning a light on and "starting a fire."

The wire inside an incandescent bulb is not on fire, and what will scholarly rabbis say in 10 years when organic LED lights, which are chemical compounds, are the primary light source in most homes?  Will they also be banned for some stretched-beyond-belief reasoning?

This is an area that has driven me to consider conspiracy theories about my native religion, where, as a means of rabbis showing how important, valuable, and knowledgeable they were, they would interpret issues in this manner, which made no sense 100 years ago, or today.

Hey no one is pulling a gun at you. I am secular myself so of course I don't apply most of these rules in my life. However I do try to find out the logic behind the rules. In this particularity, the work is done by switching on electricity. It doesn't matter if you switch on a light, a TV, or Blender. By switching electricity on you create a spark. In Israel there is the additional issue of Jewish people working at the power plants and on the grid during shabbat.

My opinion is you can either believe it or not, accept it or not, but don't try to invent new rules that overtake Torah law just to make it easier for you. That's like cheating and that's what really ruins our people.

When Hashem gave Moshe the Torah he taught him everything that every generation would ever encounter and the solutions to it. That included "lights on shabbos". There is no Jewish people without the Torah, so if you don't follow the Torah because you don't believe it in it, then how could you believe anything it says, which includes your  very Judaism? The point of loving G-d is following things even if you don't understand it. There doesn't have to be logic to it. Religion isn't based on logic, it's based on faith. Faith can't be proven with science. To the believer, there are no questions. To the non-believer there are no answers. It doesn't matter if we don't understand, we still have to follow, and THAT is TRUE faith.

[rhodescholar]

Hey no one is pulling a gun at you. I am secular myself so of course I don't apply most of these rules in my life. However I do try to find out the logic behind the rules. In this particularity, the work is done by switching on electricity. It doesn't matter if you switch on a light, a TV, or Blender. By switching electricity on you create a spark. In Israel there is the additional issue of Jewish people working at the power plants and on the grid during shabbat.

This is factually incorrect.  The flow of electricity is always on, when you plug in a lamp into the wall the electricity is already flowing into that socket, it just needs a place to go forward, there is no "spark."

My opinion is you can either believe it or not, accept it or not, but don't try to invent new rules that overtake Torah law just to make it easier for you. That's like cheating and that's what really ruins our people.

I am not "inventing" new rules, it is the rabbis who are doing that, trying to apply concepts created 6,000 years ago to modern technology, they simply are no applicable.

How can one "overtake" torah law when there is no applicable law to the concept of electricity - for example, or even better, as I said above - to chemical-based lighting with no electrical circuit whatsoever?

[rhodescholar]

When Hashem gave Moshe the Torah he taught him everything that every generation would ever encounter and the solutions to it.

I apologise, and not to be rude, but that statement is not factual.

That included "lights on shabbos". There is no Jewish people without the Torah,

Also, not true.  Hitler did not ask if a person followed the torah, he asked if they were jewish, and killed them.  Judaism is a race IMO, not a religion.  Our enemies have never made this distinction, and neither will I.

so if you don't follow the Torah because you don't believe it in it, then how could you believe anything it says, which includes your  very Judaism?

As I mentioned above, I find religion as it is taught and practiced to be, to be polite, invalid.

The point of loving G-d is following things even if you don't understand it. There doesn't have to be logic to it. Religion isn't based on logic, it's based on faith.

Spoken like a true communist, or islamist, or...

I have spent my entire life fighting totalitarianisms, where you were supposed to accept and obey some authority figure's statements "on faith."

I am afraid at this time I am unable to accept a doctrine not supported by scientific evidence.  I have been, like a ship at sea, steadily moving in this direction away from organized religion for quite some time now.

While I would never wish to negatively impact or prevent others from practicing what their "faith" provides them, I simply cannot accept a religion "because someone says so."

Faith can't be proven with science. To the believer, there are no questions.

There are those who believe that once you cease asking questions - meaning, you are unwilling to challenge and pursue truth - you are completely more lost than the religious here would believe me to be

To the non-believer there are no answers. It doesn't matter if we don't understand, we still have to follow, and THAT is TRUE faith.

No answers as presented by the religion, but it does not mean one cannot pursue and find them elsewhere.

-----------------------

Look, as I get older and face my own mortality, it is certainly infinitely more comforting to think that should I pre-decease my children (hopefully, as all parents should) I will get to see them again in some kind of after-life.

My beliefs at this point operate in a grey area, where my innate, strong desire to find an inalienable "truth" is combatted by these feelings of mortality, and will probably require many more years of thought and reflection before the 2 sides can be resolved.

[The One and Only Mo]

When Hashem gave Moshe the Torah he taught him everything that every generation would ever encounter and the solutions to it.

I apologise, and not to be rude, but that statement is not factual.

That included "lights on shabbos". There is no Jewish people without the Torah,

Also, not true.  Hitler did not ask if a person followed the torah, he asked if they were jewish, and killed them.  Judaism is a race IMO, not a religion.  Our enemies have never made this distinction, and neither will I.

so if you don't follow the Torah because you don't believe it in it, then how could you believe anything it says, which includes your  very Judaism?

As I mentioned above, I find religion as it is taught and practiced to be, to be polite, invalid.

The point of loving G-d is following things even if you don't understand it. There doesn't have to be logic to it. Religion isn't based on logic, it's based on faith.

Spoken like a true communist, or islamist, or...

I have spent my entire life fighting totalitarianisms, where you were supposed to accept and obey some authority figure's statements "on faith."

I am afraid at this time I am unable to accept a doctrine not supported by scientific evidence.  I have been, like a ship at sea, steadily moving in this direction away from organized religion for quite some time now.

While I would never wish to negatively impact or prevent others from practicing what their "faith" provides them, I simply cannot accept a religion "because someone says so."

Faith can't be proven with science. To the believer, there are no questions.

There are those who believe that once you cease asking questions - meaning, you are unwilling to challenge and pursue truth - you are completely more lost than the religious here would believe me to be

To the non-believer there are no answers. It doesn't matter if we don't understand, we still have to follow, and THAT is TRUE faith.

No answers as presented by the religion, but it does not mean one cannot pursue and find them elsewhere.

-----------------------

Look, as I get older and face my own mortality, it is certainly infinitely more comforting to think that should I pre-decease my children (hopefully, as all parents should) I will get to see them again in some kind of after-life.

My beliefs at this point operate in a grey area, where my innate, strong desire to find an inalienable "truth" is combatted by these feelings of mortality, and will probably require many more years of thought and reflection before the 2 sides can be resolved.

So Judaism is man-made?

[rhodescholar]

So Judaism is man-made?

I do not see sufficient evidence at this time to prove it is or is not.

[Zelhar]

rhodescholar, First thing, Jewishness is defined by the Torah and not by Hitler, neither by yourself. If you speak of Judaism as a racial identity then you are not speaking about the same concept that I am speaking of, so you better come up with a new name for your concept because "Jew" etc. are already taken.

Second, regardless of whether my reasoning was factually correct, you should understand how rabbis come up with their halachic rulings- there are laws of ruling and deduction in the Talmud and every ruling is based on them. While on many issues there are opposing views, the issue of electricity on shabbat is not one of them as far as I know. All the rabbinical scholars come up with the same or similar conclusion on this particular issue. So your argument against them is invalid, unless you are going to become a Talmudic scholar and make your case using valid halachic arguments.