Earth at the Center of the Universe

[jdl4ever]

Hello, Einstein the inventor of relativity believed himself that the earth went around the sun so that should be more than enough proof that what you are trying to claim is false and you are the ones who don't understand relativity.  Relativity is a supplement to Newtonian physics, not a replacement to it.  Any educated man who looks at your post will laugh out loud by your misconceptions that things can't be proven mathematically if they look appear certain way to our vantage point.  Relativity itself was proven mathematically and you can prove which relativity is correct mathematically as well. 

Also, who are you trying to fool?  Yes, the Torah has everything in it but previous Torah scholars were only able  to uncover a very tiny fraction of advanced science hidden the Torah since this information is so deeply hidden.  If it was revealed in any great amount to the ancient scholars like you claim, then why didn't ancient Israel have electricity?  Why didn't they invent vaccines?   Why didn't they invent gunpowder and dynaminte?  Why didn't they know basic Chemistry or physics?  Why did Maimonities say things about medicine that was disproven?   Why did the Shulchan Aruch say that you can't use toilet paper in the restroom because it is something that the fire rules over and is harmful but the REMA says he is wrong since people tried this and nothing happened to them?  The fact of the matter is, that ancient Israel did not know about advanced sciences (or even basic science concepts)  since G-d purposely kept this so hidden that it was impossible to find out since he wanted the human race to discover the sciences themselves at their own pace.  The Torah is something else, since G-d revealed the Torah to us at Sinai and we expanded it through study throughout the generations.  G-d did not reveal science to us at Sinai, even though the Zohar did uncover a deep secret about the big bang theory before the scientists talked about it, but this is the exception and not the rule.

And if you don't believe the earth goes around the sun then it is pointless discussing evolutionary concepts like intelligent design with you guys since you are not rational people who seek the truth with sincerity.

[Lubab]

Hello, Einstein the inventor of relativity believed himself that the earth went around the sun so that should be more than enough proof that what you are trying to claim is false and you are the ones who don't understand relativity. 

Look at the language you are using. Einstein "beleived". You have correctly stated this (if its true). Einstein can beleive either way because they are both scientifically and mathematically valid. I've been saying that the whole time.

You can also beleive whatever you want.  But don't convince yourself it's provable through mathematical calculations. I think you yourself even know this is true, you are just not prepared to admit it. I mean, you can do this experiment yourself using a bucket, or pool table balls or whatever. Make one pool table ball go around the other and try to prove which one is really moving based on your calculations. First calculate using one ball as the focul point. Then calculate using the other ball as the focul point. Does it only work out one way or two? How can you prove which way is right? If you can't prove it by pool table balls, how can you prove it by the sun and earth? Now please explain to me where my logic is off here.

If you are the real-truth seeker here, and geocentrists all irrational, why haven't you taken a stab at my question about the tennis ball? Now I've given you another question about pool table balls. Where are your answers? Where is the response?

I'm afraid you are the one denying obseravble reality in this case.

I challenge you to show this thread to a real physisits to see who is making sense here. 

[Lubab]

Hello, Einstein the inventor of relativity believed himself that the earth went around the sun so that should be more than enough proof that what you are trying to claim is false and you are the ones who don't understand relativity.  Relativity is a supplement to Newtonian physics, not a replacement to it.  Any educated man who looks at your post will laugh out loud by your misconceptions that things can't be proven mathematically if they look appear certain way to our vantage point.  Relativity itself was proven mathematically and you can prove which relativity is correct mathematically as well. 

 Why did Maimonities say things about medicine that was disproven?   

What are you referring to? Maimonedes himself says his advice on medicine and diet will not apply to later generations who have bad diets to begin with. he said it applies for his time.
Nothing in Torah has been disproven or will ever be. It's usually just been misunderstood by people who want make themselves feel smart so they don't give the Torah view the respect it deserves which is exactly what is going on here.

[Lubab]

Maybe they didn't creat electricity because it wasn't the appropriate time for that. However they were able to manipulate the physical world in ways we ourselves still dont' know how. For instance, every person who spoke in the Talmud was able to rasie the dead. Do we know how to do that today? I think not.

Rabbi Yochanan was able to get vinegar to burn. They knew how to use Hashem's name to fly and do all other kinds of miracles. So I assume electricity would've been small potatoes for them.

You make claims of "mistakes" by them. But instaed of asking a competent Rabbi how to resolve what they say with modern science, you'd prefer to label them "mistakes" and be done with it. Your faith in the sages of Israel is lacking in many respects and this is a problem.

[Muck DeFuslims]

Whoa, whoa, whoa.
This is getting a little bizarre.

Lubab states:
"For instance, every person who spoke in the Talmud was able to rasie the dead."

"They knew how to use Hashem's name to fly and do all other kinds of miracles."

Tell me more about raising the dead, flying just by using Hahem's name, and these other miracles.

I'm a skeptic.

And I still believe the Earth is orbiting the Sun and that this is an observable, objective reality that can be and has been observed from other points in space.

Also, earlier in this thread Mifletzet states: "Otherwise Einstein's disciple Lincoln Barnett would never dare to say that "We cannot feel our motion through space - nor has any experiment actually proven that the Earth is in motion".
If you know of such an experiment, then you have disproved Relativity, and you get the Nobel Prize and $$$$!"

Are you saying that an experiment proving the Earth is in fact in motion would invalidate Relativity ? Sorry, that's rubbish.
The fact that we can't feel the motion of the Earth doesn't disprove Relativity. It proves it.
Even if you want to debate whether the Earth orbits the Sun or vice versa, surely you can't deny that the Earth is rotating on it's axis. We can't feel that motion either but it surely is ocurring at a speed of hundreds of miles an hour. This doesn't disprove Relativity, on the contrary, it proves it.

In any event, Lubab, I'd like to know more about raising the dead and flying.

[jdl4ever]

Lubav has the typical Chassidik viewpoint on things which is very mystical and he believes in magic and other mystical things.  It is very difficult to argue logically with people who think this way, since their heads don't work the same way as us. They think the Rabbis in the Talmud could fly, knew everything including all sciences and space travel and all of them could raise the dead.  Us Misnagdim are not mystics.  We think this is crazy insane stuff (duh).  Yes, some Rabbis in the Talmud may have been worthy to raise the dead and the Talmud has an account of one Rabbi who did this, and G-d does miracles rarely, but that is where our common viewpoints end.  I think this kind of thinking makes people into irrational fools.  It's the kind of thinking that lead to the Holocoast since the Rabbis were too involved in learning Torah and waiting for a miracle then to think rationally about the future and about what the Torah wanted us to do.  It's the kind of thinking that makes Jews into fools since people like this reject mathematics and science in favor of nonsense and they reject logical reasoning to prove Torah concepts as done in the Talmud and instead derive stuff mystically which they don't understand to begin with.   These people think their leaders were perfect, knew everything and were infallible.  Us Misnagdim don't view our Rabbis this way.  We think great Rabbis were very great but we know what they were experts on and what their individual limitations were and if someone comes up with a good refutation on something they say then we accept it since they are human and are not perfect.   Us Misnagdim also view things with an open mind and use science and mathematics as a spice to improve our understanding of the Torah.  Chassidim have a closed mind and don't accept any science at all.  The only thing they do is make false arguments made by ignorant people who claim that they think science supports their view that the Sun goes around the Earth. That's called rejecting science my friend.  I'll continue to state the Misnagad Orthodox tradition as passed down to me from my grandparents on this forum.

What is this tennis ball thing you refer to, please restate it for me.   

[Lubab]

If you read between the lines of what JDL4ever is saying this is how it can be summarized.

Me (Lubab) and in the tradition of my Rebbeim believe in what the Torah says first and foremost. This includes everything it says in the Talmud. We do not reject science. We simply will take the Torah's word for it first and do our best to reconcile it with sceince. We also beleive (and the Rebbe has said many times) that if sceince and psychocology and all the other secular wisdoms progress enough and do their reaserch honestly, they will come to all the same conclusions as the Torah.

JDL4 ever and his school of think in the opposite way. They beleive in sceince first and foremost. Then they do their best, if possible, to try and reconcile the Torah with what the scientists say. If the scientists "prove" something againt the Torah, they will reject or downplay what the Torah says and say it's just "magical" or something like that and we don't really need to take it seriously.

This is a Torah forum. JTF is a Torah organization. Therefore, I would hope that the leadership here would first beleive what the Torah says and then try to reconcile it with science, not the other way around. Doing things the opposite way borders on heresy, because your real authority on the issues are the atheist scientists and not the Torah and the Talmud. I question if someone with such an attidute can really be considered a Torah Jew.

With all this said. I think I have proven to you that in this particular debate, either view is compatible with science. You may not like it. It may not be what you were taught in school. But it is true. There is no point at which you can say this is an objective point from which to measure. Since our motion is not perceptible you will never know if that from which you are measuring is not also in motion. This is logical and sceintific. But even if it were not yet understanble according to science I would still belive it because I know the Torah knows better.

And yes, people in the Talmud raised the dead. The dead were raised in the Bible too. One who rejects this or thinks its crazy probably doesn't have too much faith in the stories of the splitting of the sea, the 10 plauges or any of it.

JDL4ever: Do you beleive in the miracles of the Bible and the Talmud?
JDL4ever: The tennis ball question is in this thread-it's the only post (I think) with bold in the text. Check it out.


For the record, we in Lubavitch do not beleive in magic as JDL4ever claims. We beleive in G-d. We beleive G-d can do anything. And we beleive people who are more closely connected with G-d can break the rules of nature as well. If you dont' beleive in that, you don't beleive in the Bible.
 

[Lubab]

Now to answer your question more directly, Muck the Fuslims.

Torah Jews beleive that G-d created the world. This means He created the laws of nature too. He chose them and continues to enforce them at His pleasure.

When he wants to, He can change the laws of nature. G-d set up the world as an arena for the Torah to be fulfilled. So when the laws of nature get in the way of fulfillment of the Torah, G-d will often change the laws of nature for the Righteous people.

Righteous people can ask G-d to change the laws of nature and this is no problem for G-d because he the one who chose them in the first place. So miracles like defying gravity (flying) or making vinegar burn, are really no more unique or miraculous than the usual rules of nature. Both are just G-d doing what He wants to do.

As the Talmud states regarding the story of the vinegar that burned: "The same G-d who says oil should burn, can say that vinegar should burn". Since they needed to light the Shabbat candles, G-d did this for Rabbi Yochanan.

In general, when people are willing to go out of their own nature and do things for G-d in a way of self-sacrifice, G-d reciprocates and will go out of His nature too. This is called "Midah Keneged Midda"-or that G-d treats people measure for measure.

It's not magical. It's just saying the Creator has control His creations. It seems logical to me. What about you? In any case, this is the Torah view.

[Lubab]

Chassidim have a closed mind and don't accept any science at all.  The only thing they do is make false arguments made by ignorant people who claim that they think science supports their view that the Sun goes around the Earth. That's called rejecting science my friend. 
What is this tennis ball thing you refer to, please restate it for me.   

Someone who speaks this way, is someone who did not read my posts carefully. I do read your posts carefully JDL4ever. I hope you would give mine the same respect.

The fact that you are not familiar with the tennis-ball analogy I gave is very telling. It confirms what I've thought for a while: that you are not really reading my posts carefully and considering them. As a result, you do not fully understand the argument the Rebbe and I are making.

There is someone with a closed mind here, but it's not me. I've read all your posts with a very open mind and I have very familiar with your point of view.

P.S. We don't reject science. We hold just like CBP does: If sceince claims to contradict the Torah-it's junk science.

[Lubab]

In all honesty, I'm weary of this discussion. I feel I've beaten the dead horse a few times already. 

Everyone who has any questions on the Lubavitcher Rebbe's view on this topic which is also my view (and in my opinion the Torah view) can PM me. But as far as this thread goes- everyone can jump all over my words, because I'm done with this one.

Thanks for a very interesting and exciting discussion. I mean that.



P.S. Mitzflefet was right. The discussion is in Pesachim 94 not in Yuma.

[jdl4ever]

I'm also tired.  If you really want me to answer your tennis ball analogy then I will do so but I feel my comments have already answered your questions about relativity including this example.  Basically, I believe that the Torah is correct obviously. I put the Torah first of course but much of what the Torah says about creation has dozens of possible interpretations.  JDL4EVER and the Misnagdim believe that if science proves that something is wrong, then we can eliminate possible interpretations of the Torah in favor or those interpretations that coinside with the proven scientific viewpoint.  The 7 day account of creation is an example that has many interpretations and even many of the ancient commentators didn't take it literally; plus the simple reading of the Torah contradicts the view that the account is literal since the day and night didn't exist when the first and second morning and evening were menchaned.  The Chassidim however have closed minds and only accept one interpretation of the Torah out of many (the one that their Rebbe chose), and never reject that interpretation when science proves it wrong, and instead they say that Science is wrong and every other Jew that takes another valid interpretation of the Torah is a heretic. 

Lubav asked what if the Torah said something outright with no other meaning and that contradicted science?  Well, then the Torah must be correct in this case since that's what G-d said but so far science has not contradicted the Torah, it only enhanced our understanding of the Torah.

Secondly, it is you who has explaining to do since the Talmud says that the Earth goes around the Sun and the Talmud relates how the Rabbis of the Talmud accepted the secular viewpoint of the cosmos when they proved that they were correct, so the Rabbis in the Talmud were like me and not like you.  They had open minds.   Also the Bible never says that the sun goes around the Earth and you know it.

[Mifletzet]

Einstein himself says:

"The struggle, so violent in the early days of science, between the views of Ptolemy and Copernicus would then be quite meaningless. Either coordinate system could be used with equal justification. The two sentences, 'the sun is at rest and the earth moves,' or 'the sun moves and the earth is at rest,' would simply mean two different conventions concerning two different coordinate systems" (Einstein and Infeld, The Evolution of Physics, p.212).

Thus, Einstein holds that the Sun going round the Earth is EQUALLY valid, not allegorically, but in hard physics! This is the FOUNDATION of Relativity!

The Tenach speaks in about 700 places of the Sun moving. Nowhere does it speak of the Earth moving, except when it will be shaken at the End of Days, as the novi predicts נוע תנוע הארץ

Yehoshua 10 has Yehoshua commanding the Sun & Moon to stop their moving, NOT the Earth to "stop rotating".

The Tenach does not speak phenomenologically. It is plain speaking, and states things AS THEY ARE - רק בעינך תביט

The Tenach is not a science text book, but on the areas on which it speaks on scientific subjects, we who believe in the Dvar Hashem hold that it is authoritative, and He would not state a falsehood in His Word to be propagated down the generations!

[jdl4ever]

Mere stupidity.  Einstein himself knew and believed that the earth went around the sun, so stop misquoting him out of context.  Relativity is an observation of possibilities while mathematical and scientific proof is used to prove which possibility is correct.  As for Joshua, all it says is that the sun stopped in the sky which can be taken to mean either of those interpretations so there is no proof one way or the other.  If the earth stopped revolving around the sun then the sun will appear to stay still in the sky when we look at it.  The Tanach speaks in the language of regular people as Rashi says many times so it talks about how the sun appears to us, it doesn't speak in the language of science.  The Talmud however, does say that the Earth goes around the Sun, so if you are looking for proof of who the ancient Rabbis thought was correct, there it is.

[Mifletzet]

That is a pure Einstein quote in context.

You haven't given us yet the exact source of this purported Heliocentric Talmud quote (because there is no such quote!).

"If the Galileo Affair had taken place after Einstein had framed his General Theory, it would have resulted in an even draw, out of physical and mathematical necessity. The difference between a geocentric and heliocentric view is one of relative motion only, and such a difference has no physical significance" (Sir Fred Hoyle).

NASA uses the geocentric model (ie stationary, non-rotating Earth) for its satellite launches, and the geocentric model is used as the truest possible one for artillery, satellites, navigation, weather forecasting, oceanography, gyroscopy, calendars, eclipses, etc.


"Then spake Yehoshua to the LORD in the day when the LORD delivered up the Amorites before the children of Israel, and he said in the sight of Israel, Sun, stand thou still upon Gibeon; and thou, Moon, in the valley of Ayalon.

And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies. Is not this written in the book of Yasher? So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day" (Yehoshua 10).

Yehoshua commanded the Sun and Moon to stop moving. He did not command the Earth to stop rotating -  אין המקרא יוצא אלא מידי פשוטו

Notice that the simplest explanation of the zero-velocity result of the Michelson-Morley experiment, and the positive velocity result of the Michelson-Gale experiment is that the Earth is NOT rotating!

Read the geocentrism-advocating chapters in "True Science Supports the Bible", "Mind over Matter", plus the articles in the B'Or HaTorah journals, and that's just for starters.

JDL4ever is implying that suddenly Moshe Rabbeinu, Yehoshua, all of Chazal, the Rambam, the Maharal, R.Dovid Gans, the Ma'aseh Tuviyah, the Matteh Dan, the Techunos Hashamayim, the Shvilei D'Rakiya, R.Yehonason Eibeshutz, the Ba'al Hatanya, R.Nachman of Breslov, the Sefer Habris, the Lubavitcher Rebbes, Rav Kahane and his son, Chaim, Einstein, Sir Fred Hoyle, Sir Herman Bondi, Professor Herman Branover, Birkhoff, Burniston-Brown, Moon and Spencer, Mach, Nightingale, Rosser, Lense and Thirring, Barbour and Bertotti etc etc etc are all "stupid", and that it's JDL4ever who is "clever": what a disgrace - a chilul even!

[Muck DeFuslims]

This thread excites me and depresses me at the same time.

I think it's magnificent and wonderful that the infallibility and truth of our Torah, and therefore Hashem, is unquestioned here.

But I also find it disturbing that there are those that feel if the Earth is orbiting the Sun or that if the Earth is rotating on it's axis that this somehow invalidates the Torah.

I believe that an infallible, complete grasping of the intricacies, mysteries, subtleties and meaning of the Torah is just as impossible as an infallible, complete understanding of the Universe.

[jdl4ever]

This thread also depresses me to see delusional people here.

1. Mifletzet, you claim that all the great scientists like Einstein and all the modern physicists think the sun really goes around the Earth?  This is INSANE.  All the scientific community is in universal agreement that the earth revolves around the sun and has been this way for at least 200 years.  Einstein himself also believed that the Earth went around the Sun as does every scientists to this day.  Don't believe me?  Walk into Queens College and ask every mathematics or physics professor in there.  Better yet, go to your bookstore and open up any modern physics test, read the daily published research in physics, read any text written by Hawking.  Go to NASA and discover the various space missions they went on using calculations from this model of the universe. Ask any expert in relativity if Einstein thought like you did.  Every single mathematics and physics professor knows that the earth goes around the Sun, since this is very basic mathematics and physics.  Every elementary school kid knows this since it is basic mathematics and physics.  And most of these professors at the Collages understand relativity and would easily tell you off for not understanding this simple concept that is simply a supplement to newtonian motion. The only exception is one Lubovitcher physicist you talk of and he is the lone exception. 

2.  You say that Moses thought the Sun went around the earth and the Bible said this.  WRONG.  Show this to me.  It never says in the Bible anywhere that the Sun goes around the earth and it never says that Moses said this. 

3.  The Talmud says that the Rabbis admitted to the scientiests in a debate that Earth moves and the stars do not which is basically saying that the Earth goes around the Sun.   It is you who are arguing with the Talmud and not me.  I am simply arguing with the Rambam, and the Talmud takes preference over him.  And you know as well as I do that the Rambam was using the best scientific knowledge of his time and he knew that much of it would change. 

4- You don't understand basic mathematics and physics, or the basic scientific method so don't try to understand even basic relativity.   Your mind is not working logically at all since you have no basic understanding of the sciences.  The basis of science is the scientific method which uses evidence to prove things.  It doesn't matter how the sun appears to us, or the possibilities based on appearance, what matters is the proof that one possibility is correct.  Every single scientific discovery first involved several possibilities based on an observation and an experiment was done to prove mathematically that one of these possiblities was correct.  This is simple scientific method.  I at least have a chemistry degree, took one year of physics and 2 years of mathematics in college so I at least know something. 

[Mifletzet]

Relativity says that it is impossible to refute the Earth going round the Sun, or the Sun going round the Earth: both are mathematically and physically equivalent, and are equally correct.

Relativity does not state that the universe has no center. It states that we cannot determine where that center is.

When Moshe Rabbeinu states that the sun rose and set, we believe this to be literally, not phenomenalogically true. Otherwise you'll start saying that shabbat, tefilllin, kashrut, creatio ex nihilo, splitting of the Yam Suf, conquering Eretz Yisrael etc are also not literally true!

You have still not quoted us this purported Heliocentric Talmud: do so, verbatim please, or admit that there is none.

These papers prove that there is no physical difference between the Geocentric Model and the Modern Heliocentric View

Barbour and Bertotti, 1977. Il Nuovo Cimento B, 38:1.

Brown, G. B., 1955. Proceedings of the Phys. Soc. B, 68:672.

Thirring, H., 1916. Phys. Z. 19:33.

Lense, J. & Thirring, H., 1918, Ibid. 22:29.

Gerber, P., 1898. Zeitschr. f. Math. u. Physik, 43:93.

Mרller, C., 1952. The Theory of Relativity, (Oxford: Clarendon Press), pp. 318-321.

Moon, P. & Spencer, D. E., 1959. Philos. of Science, 26:125.

Rosser, W. G. V., 1964. An Intro. to the Theory of Relativity, (London: Butterworths), p. 460.

For rotation see: P. F. Browne, 1977. "Relativity of Rotation," Jrnl. of Physics A: Math. & Gen. Relativity, 10:727.

These papers just scratch the surface.

They led Sir Fred Hoyle, who was knighted for his cosmological expertise, to proclaim:

"We know that the difference between a heliocentric theory and a geocentric theory is one of relative motion only, and that such a difference has no physical significance."
Sir Fred Hoyle in Astronomy and Cosmology, 1975

[Joe Schmo]

Did we figure out the answer yet? 

[Mifletzet]

http://www.galileowaswrong.com/

[jdl4ever]

Someone has their head screwed on backward.  If you think the Sun goes around the earth in the year 2007 then I got nothing to say to you.  The least you can do is stop saying lies about relativity.  Everything you say about relativity is completely wrong.  I am not going to repeat myself again, you obviously are not reading my posts that explain what relativity is and explain the basic scientific method.  You are like a 2 year old constantly repeating that 4 plus 5 is one, and I keep explaining to you that it is 9 but you refuse to listen to logic and keep repeating that it is one.  I'm wasting my time with fools who don't know the first thing about basic science bragging that they discovered the hidden meaning of relativity that the scientists of the world have missed.  Fools.  What a desecration to G-d's name to have Gentiles reading this and laughing that the smartest nation on Earth has fools who still think the Sun goes around the Earth. 

[Mifletzet]

You wound yourself by thinking that Relativity is merely a mathematical construct without physical reality. If it can't be physically real, then Einstein is invalidated.

Relativity REQUIRES that to be a physical reality fully equivalent to any other chosen reference frame -- if it's not a physical reality, then Relativity is wrong.

Relativity REQUIRES it to be possible to take the Earth to be PHYSICALLY AT REST, without some physical impossibility interfering with that requirement. If the Earth cannot be treated as being actually, physically at rest, then Einstein is invalidated.

One way out is to be an equal-opportunity scoffer and say that all coordinate frames lack physical reality. At least it's consistent.

If one coordinate system DOES embody physical reality while others (like the static Earth model) do not, that abandons Einstein.

As Koheles says: והארץ לעולם עומדת

The Lubavitcher Rebbe was right in what he wrote. He chose the Geocentric framework, in line with Tenach and Chazal. If you want to choose the Heliocentric one, or Mars-centric, or Pluto-centric, or Alpha Centauri-centric, or end-of your nose-centric, you are equally entitled to, according to Relativity.

But in no way can the Geocentric paradigm be said to be "wrong".

(Until you have at least read the article "Geocentrism" in B'Or HaTorah by Dr Avi Rabinowitz, you are showing that you know nothing on this subject).

[Lubab]

JDL4ever: If you can't answer these questions adequately, you have not right calling anyone else here a "fool".

1. Is it your position that all of the people Mitlefet cited who have wrote papers on this topic a couple of posts above are also "fools"?

2. Don't you agree that the consensus of today's scientists could be wrong about other issues, such as global warming and who Created the world. Why is it so hard for you to fathom they could be misleading us here too?

3. Most importantly: Can you explain to us please how the scientists go about proving whether the helio-centric or geocentric model is correct? Obviously they start measuring from a partcular focul point, right? How can they prove that their focul point is not also in motion?

-Remember that "those who cannot debate defame" (Rabbi Kahane). So try to answer the points raised instead of calling people names.

-Also remember that personal attacks and name-calling of other members of this forum are not permitted. Debate, don't defame.

[Muck DeFuslims]

"Most importantly: Can you explain to us please how the scientists go about proving whether the helio-centric or geocentric model is correct? Obviously they start measuring from a partcular focul point, right? How can they prove that their focul point is not also in motion?"

Whether the focal point is static or not has no bearing on the validity of the observation of the relative motion of two other independent bodies.

For example, it doesn't matter if a space probe is moving away from the Earth and Sun and observing the motion of those two celestial bodies relative to each other.

The probe will see the same thing regardless of whether it is stationary, getting closer to the Earth or moving farther away.

The probe would witness the same motion as it journeyed past Mars.

The probe would still be witnessing the same motion as it traversed past Jupiter.

The probe would still observe the same motion as it left the Solar System.

And what it would see and has seen is the Earth orbiting the Sun.

The denial on this issue is incredible.

[Mifletzet]

It is not possible to tell with certitude visually what is going round what. That is Relativity.

To tell with certitude whether the Earth or the universe is rotating, you would have to go outside the universe, and report back in. We believe that we have had this report in the Tenach - אף תכון תבל בל תמוט

This would automatically involve examining the scene from a position that was a stable reference point. But we cannot get outside the universe, even theoretically. How would we know that we are really outside of everything and that our base was really stationary?

Being outside the created physical universe would place us in the position of G-d, which is hardly achievable for mortals, this side of Olam Haba.

The Earth was the first physical object created. It is the sole abode of mankind. It is the focus of Hashem's attention. It the lowest point of the Hishtalshlus chain system of devolving universes, all the way from the highest spiritual universe of Chochmah of Atzilus right down to Asiyah Hagashmi (this physical universe).

But at the same time it is the most important.The Earth has this primacy reflected by being at the spiritual and physical center of Creation.

Einstein's Relativity accepts this as being a 100% acceptable viewpoint.

And if Relativity is ever shown to be wrong, then geocentricty becomes more than just "relatively" acceptable. It becomes absolutely true, as all experiments (Michelson-Morley, Jaseja's lasers, Troughton-Noble torque, Arago, De Coudre's induction, Fizeau, Fresnell drag, Hoek, Jenkins, Klinkerfuess, Kelvin's zero ether drag, Lodge, Mascart, Lord Rayleigh's polarimetry, and the famous "Airy's Failure" experiment) show the Earth to be stationary with respect to the ether!

[Lubab]

"Most importantly: Can you explain to us please how the scientists go about proving whether the helio-centric or geocentric model is correct? Obviously they start measuring from a partcular focul point, right? How can they prove that their focul point is not also in motion?"

Whether the focal point is static or not has no bearing on the validity of the observation of the relative motion of two other independent bodies.

For example, it doesn't matter if a space probe is moving away from the Earth and Sun and observing the motion of those two celestial bodies relative to each other.

The probe will see the same thing regardless of whether it is stationary, getting closer to the Earth or moving farther away.

The probe would witness the same motion as it journeyed past Mars.

The probe would still be witnessing the same motion as it traversed past Jupiter.

The probe would still observe the same motion as it left the Solar System.

And what it would see and has seen is the Earth orbiting the Sun.

The denial on this issue is incredible.

Um...no. There is no denail here. There are just people who don't yet understand the relativity of motion. I'll try again.


Muck, when you go in that spaceship and you look down on everything, you may indeed see what appears to be the earth revolving around the sun. Problem is that by drawing that conclusion you needed to assume that you and the spaceship are still. There is no way to prove this. It is also possible that you are orbiting around the universe at the exact same speed as the sun. For this reason the earth would appear to you to be moving and the sun would seems stationary.

It is hard to explain this in words. We really need to get together with physical examples, tennis balls and stuff.

But try this on for size:
Have you ever been on a merry-go-round, Muck? Sure you have.

Remember how when you were on it, you and everything on the merry-go round looked like they were still and your family watching you was spinning? Yet, from your familites perspective, the merry-go-round was rotating are they were perfectly still. Who is right? There is no absolute answer.

It's up to you. You can choose to consider the ground stationary and say the merry-go-round is revovling. Or you can choose to say the merry-go-round is the center of the universe and all you guys on earth are the ones spinning. Either way is equally valid mathematically and scientifically. We like to think that just the merry-go round is revolving because we don't consider it so important. But really there's no compelling reason to beleive that.

When you finally understand this you've gonna have a big "Ahahhh...." and you're gonna be very happy. Just think about what's been said in this post.

If you still don't understand: read this book: http://www.amazon.com/Relativity-Great-Minds-Albert-Einstein/dp/0879759798
Skip the mathematical stuff and get into his analogies. They are very helpful.