To risk life, limb & shabbos.....for a Haitian Hamitic ingrate?!

[wonga66]

I am pretty sure that the Halacha is that a Jew can be mechalel shabbos in a gentile country to save a goy if he is the only one around who can administer help and there are goyim watching, as refraining from helping would cause animosity.

But for these admirable Haredi Zaka fellows to voluntarily fly out from Eretz Yisrael risking their lives and even break shabbos for Negroidal gentile cannabalistic zombie/voodoo worshipping ingrates...?!
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/135547



To some this may be a Kiddush Hashem. But there's also a risk of a Chillul Hashem.

[Raulmarrio2000]

To save a life is correct, whether the nations are watching or not. The issue about a Gentile watching was for the past when nearly all Gentiles were at war with Israel. When there are others who can do the rescue, perhaps it would be better for Jews to stay at home and pray. Perhaps Jewish prayers keeping the Shabbat would more effective than actually going to the area, where there are already a lot of Gentiles helping, but..... remember that most Israelis break Shabbat for much less than a disaster.

[wonga66]

The rabbonon may have qualified the halacho l'ma'aseh today, but I am pretty sure that to break shabbos to save a gentile life is, in ideal d'Oraiso terms, prohibited. The concepts of pikuach nefesh, sakonos nefoshos and putting oneself in physical danger or considerable risk for a goy, may not even apply.



Needlessly to say, this runs totally contrary to the modern egaliatarian humanist mindset, and is considered unacceptable to even many Orthodox, it running against human nature.

But the Torah is not human, and part of the test is that since Matan Torah, there are now two species of human beings on Earth: the Jewish Human and the Gentile Human, and the continued existence of the universe depends on that separateness and distinction being maintained, even if unpleasant.

Once it becomes blurred, there's usually a nasty bodycount on both sides!

Can someone elicit a definitive Kahanist Halachic answer from the (former?) Kahanist Minhag Eretz Yisrael 'posek' R.David Bar Chayim on this subject, as since the kitniyos "scandal", he seems to be moribund.

 

[Masha]

The rabbonon may have qualified the halacho l'ma'aseh today, but I am pretty sure that to break shabbos to save a gentile life is, in ideal d'Oraiso terms, prohibited. The concepts of pikuach nefesh, sakonos nefoshos and putting oneself in physical danger or considerable risk for a goy, may not even apply.

Needlessly to say, this runs totally contrary to the modern egaliatarian humanist mindset, and is considered unacceptable to even many Orthodox. 

Can someone elicit a definitive answer from the (former?) Kahanist Minhag Eretz Yisrael 'posek' R.David Bar Chayim on this subject, as since the kitniyos "scandal", he seems to be moribund.

Can't you ask Chaim this question?

[wonga66]

In my experience, R.Bar Chayim no longer responds to Halachic questions, even on his site. Being now over 50, having come under scathing attack, and being an Australian, he may have withdrawn.

[mord]

If someone is in need of help i will help except most muslims

[Masha]

In my experience, R.Bar Chayim no longer responds to Halachic questions, even on his site. Being now over 50, having come under scathing attack, and being an Australian, he may have withdrawn.

Sorry, I meant ask our Chaim on Ask JTF.

[wonga66]

The subject of the Torah's inequal treatment of Jew and Gentile in many areas is so tendentious that I have known some weaker brethern to actually relinquish the religion, and even become venomously anti-Torah.

One fellow I knew was so incensed at the Torah's seeming "injustice" in allowing a Jew to charge a Gentile monetary interest, but not a Jew, made him drop everything and marry out - in some lame neshomos "absolute equality for all" runs that twistedly deep!

[Ze'ev]

If someone is in need of help i will help except most muslims

JMO, but I feel we should help everyone, and even our enemies, when it comes to humanitarian crisis.

If I am not mistaken even Israel helped Iran a few years back when there was a bad earthquake there.

[Rubystars]

Wonga, if you were drowning, I'd help you. I hope you would do the same for me, no matter what day of the week it was. If you wouldn't save someone's life just because it's the wrong time of week and because they weren't a part of your own people then something is seriously, seriously wrong with you.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

I can completely understand why Judaism needs to keep itself distinct and separate from "the world" (a Christian term, but it means the same thing as the Gentile world in Judaism), but the spirit of this thread seems rather argumentative to me.

Then again, most Haitians are not good people.

[angryChineseKahanist]

To some this may be a Kiddush Hashem. But there's also a risk of a Chillul Hashem.

man they are greasy!

[Ari Ben-Canaan]

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/sosua.html
^The Dominican Republic offered refuge to Jews when no one else would.  Haiti is a different political entities, but I believe the people are fairly similar.

I would save a life on shabbat, even if it was someones dog [or to put an animal out of its misery, which is far more unpleasant; a squirl was 1/2 crushed and everyone was swerving out of it's way on the road]. <-If we cannot eat food which has been mistreated, how can we ignore the real suffering of an animal?

Lt. Col Henry Opus, of the French Foreign Legion, IDF, and Marines told me it is OK to break shabbat rules if a life may be saved.  He's not a religious Jew [he grew up Orthodox, like many European Jews of his day], but he is a Holocaust survivor [he must be very well acquainted with G-d], and I hold him in high esteem.  He has saved many lives on shabbat, or has been busy killing scores of Germans and/or the Arabs. [how can we allow our shabbat to be tainted by suffering which can be alleviated]

"He who saves a life, it is as if he has saved the whole world." [Talmud] <-I am looking at joining Magen David Adom when I make Aliyah; this is a phrase they often use.  Given that the whole world is not Jewish, I think it's okay to save that 99% of the world which happens to not be Jewish.

-Maccabees fought on shabbat [to save Jews lives, granted].  I think the first shabbat they got slaughtered, and then from then on out it was decided 7 days a week are needed to "arise earlier than those who would slay you in order to slay them".

--
Am I wrong?  Am I not following in the Holy ways of our G-d?  Life must be precious because G-d cares for it, and G-d creates it...  am I wrong to protect what He values?

Saving a life is a good way to be a "light unto the other nations"?

[IsraeliGovtAreKapos]

                                                                   בס"ד

Without going into the Halachic question, I'd just clear it out that I feel no mercy
for those who don't feel mercy for themeselves like these people.

[wonga66]

Now that Zaka have put themelves in the world limelight, they are obliged to help out in all circumstances http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/General+News/44948/Zaka+Operations+Officer+Flown+Back+from+Haiti.html

It's a shame there are no qualified pro-JTF rabbis on this forum (or indeed anywhere else?!) who can give us answers to Halachic shaalos.

Already there are claims by antisemites that Zaka & the IDF are in Haiti, not to help, but to harvest organs!
http://www.godlikeproductions.com/forum1/message966951/pg1

In an Amolekite's eyes, Jews can't do anything right. Hitler would still send a Jewish doctor who might have saved his life after the Bomb Plot to the gas chamber!

[Ulli]

If someone is in need of help i will help except most muslims

I think I would do the same. I couldn't help a Muslim, a Nazi or even their supporters, but with other people I think I would have mercy, althrough perhaps I don't like them.

[Spectator]

Zaka is a Jerusalem-based emergency response team run by righteous Orthodox Jews. What they are doing is a true virtue and they surely know Jewish law (Halacha) better than this lowlife scum wonga66. wonga's comments are full of venom and incitement, just ignore them.

Hebrew Zaka website:
http://www.zaka.org.il/index_h.php

English site:
http://www.zaka.us/index.asp

Wikipedia entry:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZAKA

[Ari Ben-Canaan]

Zaka is a Jerusalem-based emergency response team run by righteous Orthodox Jews. What they are doing is a true virtue and they surely know Jewish law (Halacha) better than this lowlife scum wonga66. wonga's comments are full of venom and incitement, just ignore them.

Hebrew Zaka website:
http://www.zaka.org.il/index_h.php

English site:
http://www.zaka.us/index.asp

Wikipedia entry:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZAKA

"Those who sleep with the dead" - HEROES!!

I was reading about these guys last week.  I got some pictures of them I need to post.  Even when dealing with suicide bomb Amelek Muslim Scumbag Nazis Koranimals...  to show kindness to the dead is, perhaps, the greatest charity, for there is no chance at all of ever being repaid. - Not only do these guys do jobs most are incapable of doing, or imagining, but they also travel around to cheer up the troops [that may cheer them up in turn].  I want to be a EMT, but I don't know if I have the chutzpah to be Zaka.

[GodGunsAndGlory]

Hamites are North African.

And they are not "greasy," Haiti happens to be a tropical island aka humid.

[wonga66]

The Negroidals, Chinese, Japanese and Koreans are all descendants of Ham.

There is a tradition that most Hamites will perish before the Messianic Era:
"In the whole world, declares the L-rd, two-thirds will be struck down and perish, and one-third will be left alive" (Zecharya 13:8 ) .

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

The rabbonon may have qualified the halacho l'ma'aseh today, but I am pretty sure that to break shabbos to save a gentile life is, in ideal d'Oraiso terms, prohibited. The concepts of pikuach nefesh, sakonos nefoshos and putting oneself in physical danger or considerable risk for a goy, may not even apply.

Practically our whole religion is derabanan.   So classfiying something as derabanan accomplishes zilch, it's 100% binding halacha.   But I'm not sure that this is derabanan!    Halacha lamaaseh ?   Maybe, maybe not - depends on who you ask, I'm sure.   But I'm not at all convinced that it can be called "derabanan"  although I could be wrong, let me ask around.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

In my experience, R.Bar Chayim no longer responds to Halachic questions, even on his site. Being now over 50, having come under scathing attack, and being an Australian, he may have withdrawn.

You are speaking pure sheker.   There is nowhere on his site to even ask questions.  The only way to ask him questions is to send the question to his email address, which is directly to him.   I have sent him halachic shailot and he has responded to me.   There are many people contacting him from all over the world from what I understand as well.      And I can assure you that I have learned by this great chacham and however old he may be, his mind is as sharp as ever (50 is not even old!).  That you would question that from a place of complete ignorance and pointless speculation is offensive.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Lt. Col Henry Opus, of the French Foreign Legion, IDF, and Marines told me it is OK to break shabbat rules if a life may be saved.  He's not a religious Jew [he grew up Orthodox, like many European Jews of his day], but he is a Holocaust survivor [he must be very well acquainted with G-d], and I hold him in high esteem.   

He may be a tremendous tzadik (righteous person) and heroic Jew, but none of this has anything to do with what the Jewish religion says about this issue.   And as much as you or I may like and respect Lt. Col Opus, he cannot personally decide the laws of Judaism.   So unless he is quoting what his rav explained and taught to him, he is clearly not qualified to decide the matter considering he's not religious and likely has not studied it in depth.   If I'm wrong and he's a talmud scholar, fine, but that does not seem to be the case based on what you are saying, and if he is not, there is no business in quoting his opinion.


 

"He who saves a life, it is as if he has saved the whole world." [Talmud] <-I am looking at joining Magen David Adom when I make Aliyah; this is a phrase they often use.  Given that the whole world is not Jewish, I think it's okay to save that 99% of the world which happens to not be Jewish.

-Maccabees fought on shabbat [to save Jews lives, granted].  I think the first shabbat they got slaughtered, and then from then on out it was decided 7 days a week are needed to "arise earlier than those who would slay you in order to slay them".

--
Am I wrong?  Am I not following in the Holy ways of our G-d?  Life must be precious because G-d cares for it, and G-d creates it...  am I wrong to protect what He values?

Saving a life is a good way to be a "light unto the other nations"?

These are all interesting points, but this is not how a halachic discussion is conducted, and this is not how halacha (Jewish law) is arrived at.   The same Talmud that you cite contains the record of all halachic discussions (along with subsequent authorities and commentary on Talmud) as a continuation of the centralized authority of the Great Sanhedrin that came before it.   The Talmud was sealed in order to unify the halacha, and it is within this vast text that we find the methodology to arriving at the halacha, and we find the codified halacha.   

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

The Negroidals, Chinese, Japanese and Koreans are all descendants of Ham.

There is a tradition that most Hamites will perish before the Messianic Era:
"In the whole world, declares the L-rd, two-thirds will be struck down and perish, and one-third will be left alive" (Zecharya 13:8 ) .

I don't know where you get this from, both the quote or the explanation that you seem to invent, but even if it was true, so what if there is such a tradition?    That's irrelevant to any of this discussion.    The only question is what does the halacha say.

I will ask my rabbi in shiur tomorrow about this bli neder - since I am far from expert on this issue although it did come up recently coincidentally - and I will also perhaps pose the question to Rabbi Bar Hayim if you would prefer not doing so yourself. 

I imagine that Zaka of course has its own explanation!    Have we bothered to consult that as at least a starting point?   I wish I had more time today to get into this discussion/research more.

[angryChineseKahanist]