Avoiding sexual sin

[JTFenthusiast2]

Does anyone else here struggle with avoiding sexual temptations?  The other night, I was tempted to act on sexual sin for the first time in about 8 months.  I was on the cusp of it.  I kept going back and forth between the 'joy of the sinful behavior' and thinking about Chaim's talks on the subject.  I was able to visualize his voice and I did not act on it.  I was very relieved the next morning that I had been able to avoid acting on my inclinations towards deviant immoral activity in the eyes of the Bible.

[rhayat1]

Human nature being the way it is, our sages advised us to marry off our children at a young age.  This whole concept of being a bachelor is unnatural.  One of Hazal (can't remember who right now) used to marry a new woman every time he traveled so that he would never have to be without a wife.  I'm sure he was just like men today (horny every day) and he had a solution.  Good for him I say!

[JTFenthusiast2]

Yes that is a good idea Rhayat, but some of us struggle with homosexuality so that is not a good answer in this case.  I started avoiding homosexual behavior for specific health reasons.  I was always anxious that I would or could get this or that and I decided I was so anxious the morning after that it was not worth it.  I had a partner for some years and I didnt have to worry about this.  This was all before I came to JTF and realized that all of it was sin no matter how I sliced it.

Now I just try to avoid temptation which thankfully for me is not everywhere.  It pops up here and there, sometimes it is very strong, but I have managed to avoid it by keeping busy, work, and avoiding outlets that would encouraging the behavior or the desire behind the behavior

[Moshe92]

Of course I always feel the same way as a teenage guy. www.jewishsexuality.com/ is a good website. I think that website is run mostly by arutz sheva people.

[JTFenthusiast2]

Hello Moshe,

Always nice to see you and read your friendly and helpful comments.  I need a cup of coffee and will come back and explore that site.  Thank you. 

I did take a glimpse at that site and I saw some of their comments about not masturbating.  I am not saying I condone it.  Honestly for me, if I need to masturbate then I do it, I feel it is better than acting on my thoughts with another man.  I know that is not the Torah way, but for me it is a baby step in the right direction if I have to. 

Many physicians argue that not masturbating is unhealthy.  Why?  Well because seminal fluid has frustose in it, which is a reservoir of nutrients for bacteria.  if we don't release the stuff, then it builds up much like still water and can be a nidus for infection causing prostatitis or proctitis.  I can't say I have seen a case of proctitis due to not masturbating, but I am only beginning in my training. 

[rhayat1]

Say what you will about masturbation - but I've always seen claims that its prohibition is mide'oraitha as far-fetched to say the least.  Onan's actions were condemned, in the Torah, because it was an act of hatred toward his brother.  Because he did not want to get his brother's wife pregnant since the child would not be considered his (or something to that effect).

[JTFenthusiast2]

Rhayat,

Can you elaborate on this?  I dont know the story of Onan in that detail.  I know some people have argued that homosexuality represented a sin because it prevented the procreation of the tribe of Israel.  I guess I think that it is worse for me to act on my homosexual inclinations for a variety of reasons and that masturbation if done rarely pales in comparision, although I have no biblical reason for thinking that.  I could never 'prove it' so to speak

[Rubystars]

I'm happy you were able to find a way to get through the temptation. Remember that people at JTF care about your winning this struggle and support you in your desire to do the right things and avoid sin.

[Chaim Ben Pesach]

בס''ד

JTFenthusiast, I salute you! You demonstrated great inner strength by overcoming the temptation to commit a very serious sin. If you felt good the next morning, your good feeling was completely justified.

Here is a religious Jewish organization that helps people who are struggling to overcome homosexuality:

www.jonahweb.org

G-d bless you. And G-d will bless you if you stay strong.

[JTFenthusiast2]

Thank you RubyStars.  I am a big believer in free will and that people do not have 'everything' or get 'everything' in life.  We all need to make peace with what we have and the hands we are dealt and make the best of it.  It took me a long time to come to this and so this is where I am.  Age also helps for perspective and for making you less..what's a nice way to say it, charged, maybe.

Thank you Chaim for your and others' kind responses.  Unfortunately, I do not believe people can come out of homosexuality.  I know that many JTFers will not agree, but I feel I was 'born' this way.   That said, and as you have said many times for my and other's benefit, I (we) have a choice, to act or not to act on the desire.  I choose to try my best to not act on the desire.  Organizations that promote 'change,' I believe they have good intentions, but look at all the people who are caught 2, 3, 4 years later doing sleazy things in places that I was never in as an "out" gay person.  I wish I could be married, but I think as a person in his mid-late thirties this would be selfish.  A woman has a right to feel loved in everyway, she deserves a man who will feel a certain kind of passion for her. What kind of life is it  for her if she has a very milk-toast husband who never loved her with the kind of "oomph" she deserved? 
I do feel bad about not procreating, that is something that I still struggle with.

[Moshe92]

Thank you Chaim for your and others' kind responses.  Unfortunately, I do not belive people can come out of homosexuality.  I know that many JTFers will not agree, but I feel I was 'born' this way.   That said, I have a choice, to act or not to act on the desire.  I choose to try my best to not act on the desire.  Organizations that promote 'change,' I believe they have good intentions, but look at all the people who are caught 2, 3, 4 years later doing sleazy things in places that I was never in as an "out" gay person.  I wish I could be married, but I think as a person inhis thirties this would be selfish.  A woman has a right to feel loved in everyway, she deserves a man who will feel a certain kind of passion for her. What kind of life is it  for her if she has a very milk-toast husband who never loved her with the kind of "oomph" she deserved?
I do feel bad about not procreating, that is something that I still struggle with.

I can't really understand how you feel since I'm not a homosexual, but I suggest getting married. It's important in Judaism. It's possible to love someone without being sexually attracted to that person.

[Lisa]

Moshe92, it's not fair for a woman if her husband has no interest in females. 

[GoIsraelGo!]

Yes that is a good idea Rhayat, but some of us struggle with homosexuality so that is not a good answer in this case.  I started avoiding homosexual behavior for specific health reasons.  I was always anxious that I would or could get this or that and I decided I was so anxious the morning after that it was not worth it.  I had a partner for some years and I didnt have to worry about this.  This was all before I came to JTF and realized that all of it was sin no matter how I sliced it.

Now I just try to avoid temptation which thankfully for me is not everywhere.  It pops up here and there, sometimes it is very strong, but I have managed to avoid it by keeping busy, work, and avoiding outlets that would encouraging the behavior or the desire behind the behavior

Each time you avoid temptation, you strenghten your will for the better...and most importantly G-d will help you too if he knows you are serious to repent.





                                                Shalom - Dox

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Say what you will about masturbation - but I've always seen claims that its prohibition is mide'oraitha as far-fetched to say the least.  Onan's actions were condemned, in the Torah, because it was an act of hatred toward his brother.  Because he did not want to get his brother's wife pregnant since the child would not be considered his (or something to that effect).

A sin is still a sin whether it's deoraita or derabanan.   Almost our entire religion is derabanan.   Still, I'm not sure that this sin is derabanan, even if it is not as weighty as the kabbalists make it out to be, it may actually be deoraita - I don't know/don't remember.   So to make such a distinction (while what you are saying may be true - for instance, the kabalists overreact on masturbation compared to how it is treated relative to other sins by the Talmud, but it is still forbidden even by rationalists and the Talmud itself, just not considered the worst of all evil), to make such a distinction in this context is not really productive and chas veshalom that it would give anyone the impression that it isn't so bad to do a sin of any kind.  

Add to that the fact that the person in this thread was speaking about homosexual acts which definitely are deoraita forbidden, it's hard to understand what exactly the point of your message was.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

JTFenthusiast:  Hazak u baruch!   You are in a very difficult situation and displayed a great amount of strength and fortitude to resist temptation.   May you go from strength to strength and may God help you to be able to cope with this problem and find sheleimut (completion).

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Yes that is a good idea Rhayat, but some of us struggle with homosexuality so that is not a good answer in this case.  I started avoiding homosexual behavior for specific health reasons.  I was always anxious that I would or could get this or that and I decided I was so anxious the morning after that it was not worth it.  I had a partner for some years and I didnt have to worry about this.  This was all before I came to JTF and realized that all of it was sin no matter how I sliced it.

Now I just try to avoid temptation which thankfully for me is not everywhere.  It pops up here and there, sometimes it is very strong, but I have managed to avoid it by keeping busy, work, and avoiding outlets that would encouraging the behavior or the desire behind the behavior

I commend you for having the courage to come forward with this and seek our help. My advice is to seek out the counsel of a trusted, respected rabbi on this subject. Sexual sin in general is a very difficult temptation to deal with and there's no way to beat it without several solid, trustworthy "accountability partners" (a Christian term; I don't know if it is also used in Judaism) to help bear the load with you.

[Ari Ben-Canaan]

JTFEnthusiast2, you are a good guy to not only struggle with your struggles, but to share your openness with the group as well.  I believe the Lord only gives challenges that we are capable of triumphing over.  Yasher koach my friend, you seem to be living the mitzvoth life.  I think you are a brave man.

Yisrael means, "to struggle with G-d".

I struggle with women myself.  I used to feel the need to "check out" every single woman's butt I thought was attractive.  I've been able to improve things by making the first thing I check out on a woman is her wedding ring finger, w/o "oogling" a woman.  Regardless if a woman has ring or not, I have since stopped "checking out" women, and I think of marriage to my own special lady when the day is right if I see a woman who is pretty.  Much of the time I look down to my own ring finger and imagine a wedding ring on my hand; one day I would very much like to be married with many children [I want to be like my parents, very moral]. 

I think working out at the gym helps stave off extra sexual energy, studying martial arts is also helpful to me.  When you remove one aspect of your life you need to fill it back up with something else, or else it is a void.  Avoid the void!

[rhayat1]

The post preceding mine said this:

"I did take a glimpse at that site and I saw some of their comments about not masturbating.  I am not saying I condone it.  Honestly for me, if I need to masturbate then I do it, I feel it is better than acting on my thoughts with another man.  I know that is not the Torah way, but for me it is a baby step in the right direction if I have to."

So I just thought it would be a good place to mention an opinion I have on the matter.  I am not saying masturbation is okay according to Halakha.  But I am familiar with (as somebody already pointed out) the Kabbalistic hysteria associated with it and I'd like to put it in perspective.  Also, does anybody here seriously doubt that many otherwise righteous Jews masturbate in private?  I can't prove it but I think it quite likely that no matter how long his beard is, how black his coat, how furry his shtreimel, how frantically he shuckles when he davens - under all that piety is a masturbater.  I'll go even further than that.  I'd wager (if I could) that many upstanding rabbis secretly harbor strange fetishes - just like anybody else.  I'm not saying they all act on them.  I'm just saying that that venerable old sage you show your wife's rags to may inwardly smile at (fill in the blank) _________________.  I don't know if anybody bothered to read the intro to haMmafteah I posted in the Judaism section, but I touched on this topic there as well.

Why stop at Jews?  Almost every single citizen of these United States would show disgust at other people's sexual fetishes/preferences.  Yet he might consider suicide if his own became public knowledge.  We are so two faced when it comes to sex it's even rather funny.  Each one of you, reading this, knows his own perversions and yet you can outwardly make believe that you are "normal".   I doubt that anybody is really "normal" and, if there were such a creature, I'd venture to say that he is abnormal merely by virtue of being normal.  It's an odd charade we humans play.

[muman613]

I do not agree with rhyat on this issue..

While it is true that it is an urge which everyone is tempted by, it is also true that it can be controlled. The Jewish belief is that we have free will, and we are not animals. If you argue that we are animals, you negate a good portion of the Jewish belief in Torah.

I must admit that in the past I had an addiction to porn. But it is a habit, like drug addiction, which can be controlled. My faith in Hashem has shown that these kinds of attractions can be controlled. I also don't cast aspersions about the Rabbis who, in past generations, have been known to be pure in every way.

Part of the problem is that a man must control his eyes.. This is the lesson of the tzittzit which reminds us not to stray after our eyes. The other way of avoiding sin is to avoid watching the TV and avoid looking at the billboard advertisements which constantly bombard people with sexual imagery.

[muman613]

Remember the story of Yosef HaTzadik? From the Torah? The story about Potiphars wife... Do you think that Yosef engaged in any sinful behavior despite the advances made by the wife of his master? I don't think so...

[Dr. Dan]

Muman, you took the words right out of my mouth.

Masturbation and porn are not a way to release. They are addictions and habits. Even if an unmarried man does it all the time, instead of sleeping around which is a worse thing, when he gets married, it could become a hard addiction to break.

It can be a bigger betrayal to one's wife if her husband masturbates without her. 

And especially a Rabbi who is married, how could he live with himself if he do such a thing?!

[Rubystars]

Muman, you took the words right out of my mouth.

Masturbation and porn are not a way to release. They are addictions and habits. Even if an unmarried man does it all the time, instead of sleeping around which is a worse thing, when he gets married, it could become a hard addiction to break.

It can be a bigger betrayal to one's wife if her husband masturbates without her. 

And especially a Rabbi who is married, how could he live with himself if he do such a thing?!

What if two people are meant to be together but one has a higher sex drive than the other?

[Cato]

Part of the problem is that a man must control his eyes..

Or cover up the women.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

The post preceding mine said this:

"I did take a glimpse at that site and I saw some of their comments about not masturbating.  I am not saying I condone it.  Honestly for me, if I need to masturbate then I do it, I feel it is better than acting on my thoughts with another man.  I know that is not the Torah way, but for me it is a baby step in the right direction if I have to."

So I just thought it would be a good place to mention an opinion I have on the matter.  I am not saying masturbation is okay according to Halakha.  But I am familiar with (as somebody already pointed out) the Kabbalistic hysteria associated with it and I'd like to put it in perspective.  Also, does anybody here seriously doubt that many otherwise righteous Jews masturbate in private?  I can't prove it but I think it quite likely that no matter how long his beard is, how black his coat, how furry his shtreimel, how frantically he shuckles when he davens - under all that piety is a masturbater.  I'll go even further than that.  I'd wager (if I could) that many upstanding rabbis secretly harbor strange fetishes - just like anybody else.  I'm not saying they all act on them.  I'm just saying that that venerable old sage you show your wife's rags to may inwardly smile at (fill in the blank) _________________.  I don't know if anybody bothered to read the intro to haMmafteah I posted in the Judaism section, but I touched on this topic there as well.

Why stop at Jews?  Almost every single citizen of these United States would show disgust at other people's sexual fetishes/preferences.  Yet he might consider suicide if his own became public knowledge.  We are so two faced when it comes to sex it's even rather funny.  Each one of you, reading this, knows his own perversions and yet you can outwardly make believe that you are "normal".   I doubt that anybody is really "normal" and, if there were such a creature, I'd venture to say that he is abnormal merely by virtue of being normal.  It's an odd charade we humans play.

If a man has a healthy enough relationship with his wife, there is no need for this other junk.   Obviously not everyone has such a healthy relationship. But with the right kind of relationship and a little self control, it is not inevitable like you say.    What's worse is, by implying that "everyone does it (even the most pious)" - which of course is not true, you don't have any evidence to say everyone does it - but by implying that, you encourage other people to sin.   It is difficult enough for a man to control these matters, a man does not need your assuaging him to let his guard down.   But being that you're such a rationalist in arguing against zohar, etc... it seems very odd to me that you would state something so baseless that you cannot possibly know for a fact and which has no objective evidence to support it!  That is neither rational nor believable.

There is something called projection.   Sometimes when a person does a certain thing and he does not want to take responsibility for doing it (or for not resisting it), he will convince himself and suggest to others that everyone does that thing which he does, even though in reality it is his own hangup.  Not saying this applies to you, but throwing out this info for the sake of general knowledge.  Such a person should see a therapist/psychologist and get serious, genuine help for his problems to work through them in a concentrated way.   He should not brandish these matters about on a public forum making light of it and causing others to fall in the muck with him.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

It's an odd charade we humans play.

So is every other social convention you can think of.   Does that mean God permitted acting against social convention in every area because by definition social convention is an "odd thing" (odd in the sense that other animals do not engage in it)?  Social convention is one of the things that sets man apart from animals.   However odd that may be, it's important.