To normal atheist:
I'll try to give you some explanations.
[1)did you hear about the the occam's razor,it is said that entities must not be multiplied beyond necessity.in other words it is said that when you get to a question,especialy for a complex question like G-d's existence the simplest solution is probably the true one,there are many much more simpler solutions than G-d for example,evolution of religion or natural forces.so what do you have about this?how do you simplified G-d? (i know it is sound very lame,i just can't think of better words right now)
in part, I agree with you. people DO use to complicate things and make a 'smart' 200 pages book that hardly explains in way too many words a very simple issue, and too many times, in a stupid manner. Yet, "simple is probably true" does not mean "first thing that gets into one's mind is probably true" either.
I've heard some theories of how religions appeard (apart from aliens' contribution). One was that people saw that they died, they feared, they saw thunders, etc. and couldn't explain them, etc. and because of fear they brought sacrifices to what they understood as "gods". However, I found out that people are living more relaxed with the thought that "there is no god" than the thought that they have to please Him/them. And even in antiquity there were atheists, people which saw no problem in saying about thunders, etc. that "this is nature, it has always been like this". One think I observed is that people 'became' gods. that is, great leaders (i.e. pharaohs), etc. were being venerated during their lifetime (maybe the feeling all like, of superiority, and to have people serve him, loyal people), and even after. And that's how we came to have 'gods' that invented, taught the people, etc. and that acted exactly as common human beings, only that they were 'superior in nature'. that's the same way "praying to ancestors" is in the religion that chinese believed (or believe), in orthodoxism and catholicism (saints), etc. and this seems more logical to me. By the way, if one is born far away in the wilderness, with no one around, doesn't it require lot of imagination to put "human beings" behind rain? (that is, gods). Anyway, I never heard a child in my life to invent gods, even for thunders or alike. Or, is it required they would reach... maturity? if they are taught since children of gods, they of course, believe.
- then, if people evolved progressively, shouldn't have been already accustomed to the natural phenomenon when they reached 'reason'? so no fear should have existed. People have no problem in believing that "nothing happens after you die" and all it means is "enjoy life as much as you can as long as you live"... scary enough?
- then, "evolution of religion" seems quite odd to me. if you ask me, I don't think that monotheism is superior to polytheism, if this is what you refere to (if it evolved from polytheism to monotheism). If so, compare Islam and Hinduism. Then, from atheistic perspective, if no god exist, I see no difference beween believeing in 10 gods and believing in only one. Also, if in top there is "atheism", consider that even in antiquity there were atheists, and that people are "educated" into atheism as well. we cannot tell when atheism first appeared, because not all that was thought was written and most of what was written does not exist anymore. as well of the theory of evolution, that all came from one being. There were people that believed that in ancient greece, if I remember right, but we cannot teleport in time to the first man an check all to see which believed it first.
I think that I already wrote too much...
2)how do you explains the obious contradiction between the torah and the new testament,like in the subject of kashrut or the indentity of the messiah? very weird to me that G-d with his infinite wisdon would contradicte itself (i am not talking about the quarn on purpose,even when i belived G-d i didn't belive it to be a legitimate revelation but a sick and sadistic book for psychopats).
first off, the existence of God has nothing to do with any text or belief. I don't know what kashrut is, sory.
And, there is one IMPORTANT thing you should consider: not everything is easy to understand and clear (like muslims say, I think it's from the qur'an "the truth stands clear out of err"). People can have great problems with understanding the text, even if that is clear enough, and mostly because of the traditional understanding of the text or because somebody pointed out in a certain manner, so that it was created an issue for the public (like the creation in genesis, "Let them be as a snail which melts away as it goes along", number pi and the measuring of something round, etc.). So, anything it is, I don't think it is by the saying "the truth stands clear out of err" (in other words, if you don't understand is err, if you understand - however you understand it - is true).
3)if G-d is so benevolent then why evil exists? why he permitted the holocaust or the influx of muslims to europe or the murder of great peoples like kahane and goldstein,i personally do not think of terms of good and evil but it seems to me flawed that G-d permit evil to exist.if the trend continue maybe i would need to consider to pray to satan instead of G-d as i see only evil in this world.
This is what PEOPLE around told you about God. People even find correct this thinking: "If God exists, no matter what I do, if I swear Him, I mock Him, I rape children, etc. He should act as nothing happend and give me all the things I wish. If He doesn't do so, it means He doesn't exist.". If you want to know how is the God of the Bible, read the Bible. And, by the way, your statement cannot prove that Allah can't exist either. He should not be as we like to or we imagine, in order to exist.
4)and again why in both revelations G-d punish all the people that didn't belived him even when they never heard about the revelations (like the ancient idoll worshippers or the unbaptized according to christianity).again i think it is pretty childish and evil and so it is connected to argument number 3.
You should be more concrete, tell me the exact story.
By the way, I also don't believe God just punishes people for not believing in Him while they could have not heard of Him. I think both the Tanakh and New Testament agree with that, although many christians do not agree with me. Hoever, what you thirst for means a lot, and there are many things that depend on you, no matter where you were born and what teachings you received. Also, ignorance and self-righteousness are bad things. If God doesn't punish one for being an 'unbeliever', He will punish him for not carying to see which is the truth, but enjoying doing all the things he likes (and may be bad) because he says "I don't know the truth, so I'm forgivable". The same with self-righteousness: everybody likes to say "people like me should go to heaven", and that's the excuse for everything.
5)again if G-d is so benevolent one should expect he creates all the organism of this world with optimal design,most of the organisms designs is clearly suboptimal and too much fragile.
1. you should expect this world not to be heaven;
2. expect heaven to be perfect;
3. If Adam and Eve had not fallen, the earth would have not been cursed and fragility would have had no problem because none would have suffered or died (now, I don't speak about grass, because I really can't believe it suffers pain). Weakness is bad only when there is somebody/something that harms.
6)if G-d exists and want beliver why didn't he just force people to worship him? and if he don't want to do a better job in gathering worshippers it is implied that he want atheists to exist in this world therefore i am only fullfilling G-d's will.
As seen from the Bible, God did not intend to create robots or 'zombies' that obey commandments without thinking. it would have been utterly useless: what to do with them? But if people have free will, they can choose how to be, and what to believe as well.
7)who has the burden of proof.since you believe in something that cannot be measured and under controversy and i do not belive in such thing the burden of proof is currently iles upon your shoulders
Asking of evidence is also flawd, because people can believe anything and can call anything "proof". The only possible way for all people to believe in God is, I think, if He would make Himself manifest (visible, etc.) permanently and come with angels everywhere so that whoever does any mistake, would be killed, so that none will doubt anything. Look at the miracles of the qur'an which seem very logical to many, and hear those who say that they do not have any evidence that the holocaust ever existed, that nazi ever killed any jew, etc. And their LOGIC tells them it is so. If there would be a calculation or something that would prove the Bible/Tanakh is right and all that goes with it, how many would have found the 'evidence' satisfacatory?
by the way, people believe what they want to believe, and the 'evidence' belongs to the one which wants to believe it. for the one that doesn't want to believe it, there is no 'evidence'.
G-d need to be at least as complex as the entire universe so logicaly somebody would have need to create him as such thing's by your logic can't evolve naturaly but also this creator need creator and we get a chain of infinite creator.this is very flawed and illogical.
The same problems applies to everything: what caused the big-bang? what gave birth to the laws of the universe? we have the laws of how life can exist, but why is it so? why does the gravity exist? who created it? why is it not ok to sleep with an 8 years old boy? (biologically and psychologically we have explanations, but those themselves are laws of the nature). Just tell me how everything appeared and how the laws appeared. What caused the beginning? the beginning must have been caused by something that was itself caused by something that was caused, etc. so we go nowhere. If you have an image of how the cosmic space should have existed in the "very" beginning, why did it exist? if you believe there was something in the very beginning, why did it exist? So some logic of mine tells me that nothing should have existed ever, yet I cannot understand nothingness either (if you say "in the beginning there was nothing" what do you imagine?) so "God forever existed" seems to me as logic as "what you see around exists". for me, my questions are the same as yours.
9)could G-d create a stone he couldn't lift? could he create a man more smarter then him? if he can't he isn't omnipotent and therefore don't exist and if he can he don't beig omnipotent and therefore don't exist,i alway enjoy to see people run in circles trying to create ways around this question.
Those questions are also - my opinion - misplaced. We invented the word "ominpotent" and we assigned it to God. I don't think God can teleport anybody in past, because I personally think time is just an abstract term we invented. If anybody has other understanding, I believe that God is Almighty, in the limits of logic.
11)why an omniscient beig with no needs or desire would create the universe? maybe he has some need asnd therefore not a true G-d.
First off, you define what God should be. By your logic, you find that things do not work out, but you don't come to deny the logic, but God. If omnisicence, as people define it, exists, then there is no free will (what is the difference between saying "God ordained that leaf 4 millions of years ago to fall today" and "God knew that that leaf would have fallen 4 millions of years ago"?). For muslims, if God doesn't preordain even that before the beginning of the creation, then He is not God (which seems odd to me). They also define God, in my opinion, in a strange way. Our thinking of how God should be does not change reality. And people imagine and define how God should be, but from where do they get the info???
12)most of the ancient religions proved to be untrue,why should it be differnete with contemporary ones.like stephen f robert said ''I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer G-d than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.''
atheism existed in antiquity as well, so why does the time when it appeared matter?
by the way, if 99% of the population of the earth believes X, it doesn't mean X is true either.
I just hope I will not receive a reply of the same length or bigger ; ) ).
