Author Topic: Poor, sad, dancing Israeli soldiers  (Read 44886 times)

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Offline IsraeliGovtAreKapos

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Re: Poor, sad, dancing Israeli soldiers
« Reply #75 on: July 07, 2010, 11:09:00 PM »
I would also like to add the following:

The current situation in Israel is beyond the point of offering peace. Originally I believed that Israel should not have given up Gaza, Gush Katif, and the other concessions... In retrospect all those give aways was for naught.

I think that Rabbi Kahanes idea of relocating those arabs to an arab state sounds like the only rational idea. If they don't want to move, move them physically, as they did the poor Jews who were evicted from their homes.


Rabbi Kahane chose the "moderation" interpretation of the Ba'Midbar (Numbers) 33:53:

Quote
And ye shall drive out the inhabitants of the land, and dwell therein; for unto you have I given the land to possess it.

Quote
וְהוֹרַשְׁתֶּם אֶת הָאָרֶץ וִישַׁבְתֶּם בָּהּ כִּי לָכֶם נָתַתִּי אֶת הָאָרֶץ לָרֶשֶׁת אֹתָהּ.


Rashi interpretates it as "expel them", the Yerushalmi as "eliminate them", and Sforno as "exterminate them" (I think).

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But I don't think that we should round them all up and put them in ovens... That idea sounds too much like what the Nazis did to the Jewish people. I agree that we should not become that which we hate.



So now you compare between murdering Jews like that and killing Nazis like that?

Offline muman613

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Re: Poor, sad, dancing Israeli soldiers
« Reply #76 on: July 07, 2010, 11:11:34 PM »
Ron,

Maybe I havent told you but my hebrew is not that good... Could you provide references which have been translated... Google did not translate that yeshiva site very well..

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Yaacov Ben Yehuda

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Re: Poor, sad, dancing Israeli soldiers
« Reply #77 on: July 07, 2010, 11:12:56 PM »
Megiddo Jail near Yokneam, where the worst Arab killers are housed, also has a separate section for Israeli soldiers who are jailed for things like going AWOL, stealing jeeps, insulting officers etc.

The biggest loss to the Jewish People was when Esav left us. If Esav had remained a loyal Jew, we could have conquered the world.

The Romans and Germans are descendants of Esav. They would have become the Fighting Arm of the Am Yisrael. Soldiers like them didn't dance while on active duty and in uniform......ever!



As R.Kahane writes, serving in Zahal is as much a mitzva (defending the Am Yisrael positive mitzva number 195) as putting on Tefillin, and is to be viewed with the same reverence and kovod...not irreverent frivolity!

And besides, whilst dancing they were eminently ambushable by a Hebron Fatah terrorist, the same as the 12 poor dozing Israeli soldiers who were gunned down by one arab with a carbine in 2002, or the 6 soldiers who were gunned down in their tent by a hang-glider terrorist in 1986 because the dozy Israeli guard ran off!

I agree with you 100% Wonga...your assesment is correct. These soldiers are an absolute disgrace to us, anyone that doesnt understand this is confused.

Offline IsraeliGovtAreKapos

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Re: Poor, sad, dancing Israeli soldiers
« Reply #78 on: July 07, 2010, 11:14:15 PM »
Ron,

Maybe I havent told you but my hebrew is not that good... Could you provide references which have been translated... Google did not translate that yeshiva site very well..



Idk where I can find this article in English if that's what you mean

Offline muman613

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Re: Poor, sad, dancing Israeli soldiers
« Reply #79 on: July 07, 2010, 11:18:25 PM »
Ron,

Maybe I havent told you but my hebrew is not that good... Could you provide references which have been translated... Google did not translate that yeshiva site very well..



Idk where I can find this article in English if that's what you mean

I think I understood some of that Yeshiva site... It was saying that Rambams view is not the only one... Or something to that effect.

Here is some of the translation:

Quote
Moreover, the need to remember that which Amalek did to us today is because that is the seed of Amalek with the same aspirations for brides Israel, and therefore the Torah commandment to wipe Amalek is a "rising Loorgach early kill him." הוכחה לדבר מהרמב"ם שהזכיר מצוות מחית עמלק כמצווה שהיא אקטואלית גם בזמן הזה, למרות שלכאורה שלא ידוע לנו מי משתייך לעם עמלק, ומדוע לא כתב שכבר אבד זכרם כמו שכתב לגבי שבעת העממים, וז"ל (הלכות מלכים פרק ה הלכה ד): Maimonides proof that reminded staff to Amalek mitzvah is mashed also relevant at this time, although apparently we do not know who belongs to the people of Amalek, why not write the memory as already lost seven peoples who wrote about the late (Laws of Kings Chapter went to d):
"מצות עשה להחרים שבעה עממין שנאמר החרם תחרימם, וכל שבא לידו אחד מהן ולא הרגו עובר בלא תעשה שנאמר לא תחיה כל נשמה, וכבר אבד זכרם". "A positive commandment to boycott the boycott said seven Ammin Ataharymm, and all who came near him and killed one of them goes without being said do not live every soul, and lost memories."


משמע שמצוות מחית עמלק שייכת גם היום, הא כיצד? Amalek commandment therefore belongs mashed today, huh how?

הרב יוסף בר סולוביציק זצ"ל אמר בשם סבו הגדול רבי חיים מבריסק זצ"ל שכל מי שאנו מזהים אותו כשונא ישראל הרי הוא מזרע עמלק, ועליו אמורה המצווה הזאת, ולכן לא אבד זכרם. Rabbi Yosef Bar Sulovicyak zt great grandfather named said Rabbi Chaim Brisk blessed memory, who we recognize that it hates Israel and it is the seed of Amalek, and needs to this commandment, and therefore not lost their memory. קשה לקבל את הדברים כפשוטם, שיהיה מצווה למחות את כל מי שאנו מזהים כשונא ישראל כדין עמלק אנשים נשים וטף, אלא נראה לפרש כוונתו שהתורה חידשה שיש מציאות של עמלק ששונא את ישראל ללא סיבה ניגלת לנו, (כמו עמלק שבתורה שיצא למלחמה עם ישראל כשהם בדרך ואינם מאיימים עליו ללא כל סיבה). Difficult to accept things at face value, it commands all those who protest that we properly identify Amalek hates Israel men, women and children, but his intention seems to interpret the Torah has renewed reality of Amalek hates Israel for no reason Niggli us, (as does he in turn went to war with Israel when they are on the way do not threaten him for no reason). הזיהוי הזה של שנאה עיוורת יעזור לנו להבין שיכולה להיות שנאת ישראל, שאינה בגלל סיבה זו או אחרת, ולכן הפתרון לכך לא יהיה על ידי שנשנה משהו בהתנהגותנו אליו, כמו שחשבו יהודים בתקופת ההשכלה, שאם יתנהגו כגויים תפחת האנטישמיות כלפי היהודים, ואדרבא זה הגביר את השנאה כלפינו, וכמו שאמרו כמה ממנהיגי ישראל שמדינת ישראל היא התשובה לאנטישמיות, והיא הופכת אותנו כביכול לעם "נורמלי" ככל העמים שיש לו מולדת וממילא לא ישנאו אותנו, והנה התברר כמה אין זו הסיבה אלא להיפך מכך, שכן היום מדינת ישראל היא הסיבה הגדולה ביותר לגילויי האנטישמיות. This identification of blind hatred that can help us understand to be hatred of Israel, not for one reason or another, so this solution will not by anything we change our behavior to it, like Jews during the Enlightenment thought that if the Gentiles will behave less anti-Semitism towards the Jews, on the contrary it increased the hatred toward us, and they said some of the leaders of Israel and that Israel is the answer to anti-Semitism, and makes us a people supposedly "normal" people as a homeland he has not hate us anyway, when it became clear how this is not the cause but the opposite result, because Israel is today the biggest reason anti-Semitism. אלא שצריך לומר, שיסודות השנאה נובעות משנאת עולם לעם עולם, ועל זה נצטווינו לזכור את שנאתו של עמלק, שנאה שעודנה קיימת ולא אבד זכרה. But to say, elements derive from the hatred of the world hate the people of the world, and that we were ordered to remember Amalek's hatred, hatred still exists and lost her memory.

לפי זה אפשר להסביר, מדוע היה צריך לחכות לציווי של הנביא שמואל לצאת למלחמה נגד עמלק, (שמואל א פרק טו) "כֹּה אָמַר ה' צְ-בָאוֹת פָּקַדְתִּי אֵת אֲשֶׁר עָשָׂה עֲמָלֵק לְיִשְׂרָאֵל אֲשֶׁר שָׂם לוֹ בַּדֶּרֶךְ בַּעֲלֹתוֹ מִמִּצְרָיִם: עַתָּה לֵךְ וְהִכִּיתָה אֶת עֲמָלֵק וגו' ". This can be explained by, why he had to wait an order of the prophet Samuel to go to war against Amalek, (Samuel Chapter of Tau) "Thus said the Czech - I ordered the letter which Amalek did to Israel, which had a way of Egypt, HE: Now you smite the Amalek et cetera. " משום שצריך לזהות אותו כעמלק, ואין זה קל כל עיקר, מפני שעמלק הם עם של שבטים נודדים בנגב, שאין להם מקום קבוע, אנו מוצאים אותם בדרך כלל סמוכים לישראל להצר להם, ולכאורה חל עליהם הכלל של "כל דפריש מרובא פריש" כמו שקרה לכל העמים שסנחריב הגלה אותם ממקומם, ובכל פעם הם מופיעים בלבוש אחר, כגון לפני כניסת ישראל לארץ (במדבר פרק כא) "וַיִּשְׁמַע הַכְּנַעֲנִי מֶלֶךְ עֲרָד יֹשֵׁב הַנֶּגֶב כִּי בָּא יִשְׂרָאֵל דֶּרֶךְ הָאֲתָרִים וַיִּלָּחֶם בְּיִשְׂרָאֵל וַיִּשְׁבְּ מִמֶּנּוּ שֶׁבִי". Properly identify him because Amalek, it is not easy at all, because Amalek are the migratory tribes of the Negev, who have no fixed place, we usually find them adjacent to Israel to narrow them, and apparently applied the rule of "all Edfris Ruba Parrish" as happened to Sennacherib peoples exiled them from their place, and every time they appear in a different dress, such as before the Israel Land (Numbers Chapter XXI) "and hear the Canaanite king of Arad that sat in the Negev in Israel came through the site and fought in and sat him in me." ופירש רש"י "יושב הנגב - זה עמלק, שנאמר (במדבר יג, כט) עמלק יושב בארץ הנגב. Rashi interpreted "sitting in the Negev - that Amalek, as it says (Numbers XIII, Dutt) does he sit in the Negev. ושנה את לשונו לדבר בלשון כנען, כדי שיהיו ישראל מתפללים להקב"ה לתת כנענים בידם והם אינם כנענים, ראו ישראל לבושיהם כלבושי עמלקים ולשונם לשון כנען, אמרו נתפלל סתם, שנאמר אם נתון תתן את העם הזה בידי". And change the language to speak the language of Canaan, to be in Israel to pray Loakab"ah they are not Canaanites Canaanites, saw Israel Lbushim clothing Amalekites tongue and language of Canaan, they told us pray just said, given that people will give their hands. " וכיון שהם משנים מקומם ולבושם אי אפשר לזהות אותם כעמלק בלא הוראת נביא. And when they change their place and dress you can not identify Amalek without teaching them a prophet. [/uote]
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline IsraelForever

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Re: Poor, sad, dancing Israeli soldiers
« Reply #80 on: July 07, 2010, 11:34:55 PM »
This is G-d's gift to humanity right here:



Anything and everything should be done to keep them safe and their future secure.  To sit back and do nothing while your enemy is developing an atomic bomb is not looking out for their interests. 

NEVER AGAIN!  Please let's not forget the past!

Offline Yaakov Mendel

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Re: Poor, sad, dancing Israeli soldiers
« Reply #81 on: July 08, 2010, 03:15:13 AM »

I'm really sick of you, Ya'akov. All you've done here is bashing people's pride

you talk so much about Judaism without knowing basic stuff in Judaism, please, at least be honest, and don't speak in the name of Judaism, because you don't know anything about it

...this is anti-Jewish, immoral and self-hating, and this is called treason...

Get some mental help.

You worship the "other" and have no value for your own life and your own people's lives.

You ignore Jewish history better than a Communist, ... ignore everything.

All that is nothing but smear and insults. As I said, I do not respond to that.


Really, you would be a good Pastor.

You should not insult the righteous Gentiles on this forum.

For the rest, I have already explained myself in this thread and in previous ones and there is no point in repeating what I have already said.


Offline Dr. Dan

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Re: Poor, sad, dancing Israeli soldiers
« Reply #82 on: July 08, 2010, 05:27:57 AM »
Ron there is a way to get your point across without insulting people. Read what I wrote. No where did I insult yaacov.

You insult the true enemy; but the one who doesn't know or understand, you explain to convince which you sort of didn't,but with the insults
If someone says something bad about you, say something nice about them. That way, both of you would be lying.

In your heart you know WE are right and in your guts you know THEY are nuts!

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Offline Yaakov Mendel

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Re: Poor, sad, dancing Israeli soldiers
« Reply #83 on: July 08, 2010, 07:00:00 AM »
While I might have some personal issues to go blow up arab muslim villages unprovoked, I wouldn't feel bad if it happened.

If it is really unprovoked, meaning :
(i) there is no legitimate target inside the village
(ii) the operation is not in retaliation to attacks made against Jews
then this is terrorism.
Btw, the bombings carried out by the Irgun in the 1930s in the colonial Palestine do not fit into this category because they came in retaliation against savage violence by the Arabs and they were motivated by the fact that the British did not protect the Jews, so I do not view them as terrorist actions.

Furthermore, during war and fighting, I wouldn't care if an arab muslim school were blown up if terrorists were hiding inside of them.

I would care. I am not saying that I would not do it ultimately, but it would be a moral dilemna. That is the typical situation in which Israel regularly gets nabbed because of the dirty methods of fighting of Arab terrorists. Should you cancel a planned operation because you know it will result in a bloodshed among civilians ? If you have a conscience, you can understand why one would answer yes to that question. On another hand, if you cancel the operation, you play the terrorists' game and you keep these bastards alive, thus endangering Jewish lives. In my opinion, there cannot be a systematic answer "yes" or "no" to that question, it is all a matter of circumstances and judgement.

If Israel sent a true message, our enemies would think twice about hurting a single Jew.

It would not deter our ennemies if we killed a lot of Arab civilians. Terrorists couldn't care less about their own people.
However, Israel should be as brutal as possible as far as targeted killings are concerned. This is more effective.


1. I'll give you an example..There were a couple of settlers who planned on bombing an Arab Muslim girl school.  They failed and were caught in their attempt.  Personally, I would not subscribe to the point of view of doing that unprovoked.  However, if they had been successful, I would have refrained myself from rebuking their actions. Rather, my only comment would be that, it is better to achieve a goal by following the law rather than breaking it.  At the same time, I will not be sad for the arab muslim school girls since in my mind, they are rodfim. There would be no chance they would be our friends in the future, but rather, pursuers of Jewish blood directly or indirectly.

2. If there was a terrible murdering terrorist hiding amongst civilians and he was a dangerous man about to kill other Jews, whether it would be a targeted killing or destroying a whole structure, I'm for killing him one way or the other.  My issue with targeted killings is that it puts important Jewish soldiers in danger if they are on the ground.  But in a time of war, such as the Lebanon war, in my opinion, Israel should have indiscrimenantly flattened many of those villages rather than put Jewish men in danger.


On example 1 : I disapprove of this planned bombing because I disagree with the chosen target. But I would have hated to be in a position where I would have to condemn this operation because I support the settlers' movement and there is already enough bashing of Israel in general and of the settlers in particular. I guess that if I had to take a public stance I would very briefly say that I do not support this attempted operation but that is an isolated incident and that it does not change the fact that Jews have every right to live and build in Judea and Samaria. And I would spend time recalling many instances where settlers have been treated unfairly by the Israeli government and by the media, to put things in perspective.

On example 2 : I would also be in favour of killing the beast if indeed I have enough evidence that he is about to kill Jews, even if that involves killing Arab civilians. But I would only do that as a last resort, if any other option is not available.

Also, as I mentioned in a previous post, I agree with you that too many Israeli soldiers have died as a result of trying to protect Arab civilians, especially during the first Lebanon war where Israeli soldiers were sent like sitting ducks in some places, and I strongly condemn that. What I would do on the ground is the following :
1) Encircle the village and seal it
2) Create a corridor to allow for the flight of non combatants
3) Call for all non combatants to leave
4) Once the rats have been trapped, flatten the whole thing
What if Arab civilians are kept hostage by the terrorists ? If there is no way to rescue them without sacrificing Israeli soldiers and if the place needs to be cleaned without the possibility of postponing the operation, then I would order to flatten the place all the same. A war is a war. We should avoid killing non-combatants whenever it is not necessary. But if that implies sacrificing Israeli soldiers, of course I choose to kill Arabs, all of them, whether combatants or non-combatants.

Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

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Re: Poor, sad, dancing Israeli soldiers
« Reply #84 on: July 08, 2010, 09:00:42 AM »
Second, I would never embark on a campaign of extermination of any given group of people based on a doubtful interpretation of the Bible. Judaism teaches me to be fair and critical.
Are you a practicioner of "emergent" or "postmodern" Judaism (I don't know if those exist, but they are unfortunately very real in Christianity) that teaches that we cannot know the Bible and cannot know what G-d wants us to do?

Offline Yaakov Mendel

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Re: Poor, sad, dancing Israeli soldiers
« Reply #85 on: July 08, 2010, 10:27:49 AM »
Listen, ever since I joined this forum, you have shown constant hostility toward me.
I do not like the way you talk to me and I am not entitled to respond to your sarcasms.
Your malevolence is blatant.

Offline Yaakov Mendel

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Re: Poor, sad, dancing Israeli soldiers
« Reply #86 on: July 08, 2010, 10:29:21 AM »
Since I forgot to quote, to avoid any misunderstanding, my previous post was directed at DBF.

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: Poor, sad, dancing Israeli soldiers
« Reply #87 on: July 08, 2010, 10:30:05 AM »
Ron,

I think you are a little off base on some of the things you are saying here...

The issue with Schem and Dina was seen by their father as a big mistake. The Rabbis do not suggest that that episode is the way to deal in such a situation.  

Incorrect.

As Ron has already pointed out, major rishonim held that the Shechemites were hayav mita (guilty of the death penalty) for breaking one or another of the 7 noahide laws.   There are disagreements about which of these particular laws they broke (perhaps it's more than one!).   What Yaakov was against was the ANGER employed by his sons and/or the possible danger they put him in.  Not necessarily what they did and not that the Shechemites didn't deserve it.   Big difference.    And the Torah leaves off the dispute with their retort to their father saying along the lines of "Should our sister be treated as a harlot" - which is hardly an unambiguous ending from which to draw a conclusion on who was correct in the dispute.  Perhaps the Torah leaves off with that ambiguous conclusion so as to point to us there is validity in both sides of the argument.   But no one is saying the shechemites were innocent.   Yakov is NOT saying that according to the rishonim.  And the rishonim understood the Torah, unlike present-day liberal rabbis and certain kiruv promoters of "feel-good" Judaism.   These rabbis need to learn the facts and not speak about what they don't know.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2010, 10:37:19 AM by Kahane-Was-Right BT »

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: Poor, sad, dancing Israeli soldiers
« Reply #88 on: July 08, 2010, 10:34:12 AM »
Megiddo Jail near Yokneam, where the worst Arab killers are housed, also has a separate section for Israeli soldiers who are jailed for things like going AWOL, stealing jeeps, insulting officers etc.

The biggest loss to the Jewish People was when Esav left us. If Esav had remained a loyal Jew, we could have conquered the world.

The Romans and Germans are descendants of Esav. They would have become the Fighting Arm of the Am Yisrael. Soldiers like them didn't dance while on active duty and in uniform......ever!



As R.Kahane writes, serving in Zahal is as much a mitzva (defending the Am Yisrael positive mitzva number 195) as putting on Tefillin, and is to be viewed with the same reverence and kovod...not irreverent frivolity!

And besides, whilst dancing they were eminently ambushable by a Hebron Fatah terrorist, the same as the 12 poor dozing Israeli soldiers who were gunned down by one arab with a carbine in 2002, or the 6 soldiers who were gunned down in their tent by a hang-glider terrorist in 1986 because the dozy Israeli guard ran off!

I agree with you 100% Wonga...your assesment is correct. These soldiers are an absolute disgrace to us, anyone that doesnt understand this is confused.

Really, you agree with him that you'd rather have gentile European nazi beasts serving as the "armed wing" of the Jewish state's army rather than Jews fighting?   You agree with him that Jews are mystically inherently incapable of fighting or discipline, but goyim are supermen and should be employed to do work for us?  You agree that a Jewish "brand" of nazism where we simply tell nazis what to do and they listen to us, that that is a good thing?   What kind of self-hating insanity is this and how can you possibly agree?

Offline Dr. Dan

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Re: Poor, sad, dancing Israeli soldiers
« Reply #89 on: July 08, 2010, 11:15:26 AM »
Yaacov I guess you are a little more moderate than me. But you are entitled to your opinions. In time as you survive in JTF you'll move a little more to the right like I have.
If someone says something bad about you, say something nice about them. That way, both of you would be lying.

In your heart you know WE are right and in your guts you know THEY are nuts!

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Offline Yaakov Mendel

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Re: Poor, sad, dancing Israeli soldiers
« Reply #90 on: July 08, 2010, 12:09:36 PM »
Yaacov I guess you are a little more moderate than me. But you are entitled to your opinions. In time as you survive in JTF you'll move a little more to the right like I have.

"Survive" in JTF, you are right Dan, that is the proper word to use !


Offline muman613

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Re: Poor, sad, dancing Israeli soldiers
« Reply #91 on: July 08, 2010, 12:18:59 PM »
Ron,

I think you are a little off base on some of the things you are saying here...

The issue with Schem and Dina was seen by their father as a big mistake. The Rabbis do not suggest that that episode is the way to deal in such a situation.  

Incorrect.

As Ron has already pointed out, major rishonim held that the Shechemites were hayav mita (guilty of the death penalty) for breaking one or another of the 7 noahide laws.   There are disagreements about which of these particular laws they broke (perhaps it's more than one!).   What Yaakov was against was the ANGER employed by his sons and/or the possible danger they put him in.  Not necessarily what they did and not that the Shechemites didn't deserve it.   Big difference.    And the Torah leaves off the dispute with their retort to their father saying along the lines of "Should our sister be treated as a harlot" - which is hardly an unambiguous ending from which to draw a conclusion on who was correct in the dispute.  Perhaps the Torah leaves off with that ambiguous conclusion so as to point to us there is validity in both sides of the argument.   But no one is saying the shechemites were innocent.   Yakov is NOT saying that according to the rishonim.  And the rishonim understood the Torah, unlike present-day liberal rabbis and certain kiruv promoters of "feel-good" Judaism.   These rabbis need to learn the facts and not speak about what they don't know.


I hope you are not saying that the Torah penalty for rape is death, or annihilation? What the Schemites were guilty of is not protesting that Schem raped Dinah... So to translate that into Halacha does this imply that anyone who witnesses rape, and doesn't report it, is guilty of death and annihilation?

I understand the lesson of this episode in the Torah, but I dont see how this applies to practical Halacha...
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

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Re: Poor, sad, dancing Israeli soldiers
« Reply #92 on: July 08, 2010, 12:22:36 PM »
This discussion of this episode I understand:


http://www.torah.org/advanced/mikra/5757/br/dt.59.1.08.html

"CURSED BE THEIR WRATH"

Chapter 34 of Sefer B'resheet records what is undoubtedly one of the most violent and morally troubling chapters in Biblical history. Here is a brief recap of the events which transpired in Sh'khem:

The family of Ya'akov enters the city of Sh'khem and Dinah, the one sister among eleven brothers, is forcibly taken by Sh'khem, the prince of the city-state after which he is named. Sh'khem rapes her and, through the august agency of his father, appeals to her brothers to allow her to become his proper wife. The brothers speak b'Mirmah (deceitfully? cunningly?) with Sh'khem and Hamor, his father, and convince them that the only way for Dinah to marry Sh'khem is if the prince and all of his townsfolk become circumcised. The townsfolk are convinced to undergo this painful operation - evidently motivated by economic gain (vv. 21-24). On the third day, with all the males in pain, Shim'on and Levi kill all of the males in town, after which the brothers pillage the town and take their sister back to safety. Ya'akov chastises them for their actions, which they defend on grounds of concern for their sister's honor.

As mentioned, this narrative is troubling on many levels. To paraphrase a contemporary writer, whereas Ya'akov's children had a golden opportunity to begin to fulfill their mission of teaching the world the way of Hashem, to do justice and judgment; (B'resheet 18:19), they squandered this chance and sullied their reputation in the eyes of the neighboring peoples by acting both deceitfully and violently, destroying an entire city in response to a crime committed by one citizen - albeit the prince. Avraham's protests of will you also destroy the righteous with the wicked? (ibid. v. 23) seem to have been inverted by his elect progeny. In addition, if we look further into the Torah, we see that rape of an unmarried woman is not considered a capital crime - rather it is a case of criminal assault (along with a fine, represented here by the word Mohar). How could Shim'on and Levi act in this manner?

Conventional understanding holds that Ya'akov's chastisement was directed against all of their actions - the deceit, the polis-cide and the pillage of the town. We are even more confident that Ya'akov was violently opposed to their behavior when we read of his deathbed charge, given to them nearly fifty years later in Egypt:

    Shim'on and Levi are brothers; instruments of cruelty are their swords. O my soul, do not come into their council; to their assembly, let my honor not be united; for in their anger they slew a man, and in their wanton will they lamed an ox. Cursed be their anger, for it was fierce; and their wrath, for it was cruel; I will divide them in Ya'akov, and scatter them in Yisra'el. (B'resheet 49:5-7)

If we look into the analyses of the Rishonim, we will find that a much more complex picture unfolds before us; indeed, a careful read of both texts (Chapters 34 and 49) provides us with ample reason to reexamine our assessment of the behavior of Shim'on and Levi in Sh'khem. Due to space limitations, we will limit our reassessment of "the tragedy in Sh'khem" to information which can be inferred from the text itself. Interested readers are encouraged to look at the comments of the Rishonim through Ch. 34 (notably the Ramban at 34:13; note his critique of Rambam's explanation).

"HAKH'ZONAH...?"

There are several indications that Ya'akov was not opposed - in principle - to the decision (and its implementation) taken by Shim'on and Levi. In addition, we have several textual indications that the Torah itself gives their approach the stamp of approval.

First of all, let's look at Ya'akov's deathbed charge to these two brothers:

    ... for in their anger they slew a man, and in their wanton will they lamed an ox...

Although there are opinions in the Midrash which interpret this statement as a reference to Sh'khem, simple "P'shat" does not support this read. How could Ya'akov be referring to the death of dozens (or hundreds) of people as they slew a man? In addition, what is the reference to an ox here?

There is one statement in the Midrash which addresses this problem - but the solution offered there is hardly a critique of the brothers' behavior:

    Did they only slay one man? Doesn't Scripture state: they slew all the males? Rather, they were only considered by haKadosh Barukh Hu as one person. (B'resheet Rabbah 99:6)

In other words, if this is a reference to the slaying of the entire male population of Sh'khem, it isn't as grievous as all that, as their lives weren't worth much in the eyes of G-d (see the additional prooftexts brought in that selection).

Again, the straightforward reading is a reference to the killing of one man and an ox. We will soon discover who these might be.

    ...Cursed be their anger, for it was fierce; and their wrath, for it was cruel...

Note that Ya'akov does not curse their actions - rather, he curses their anger (or so it seems - but see the first comment of Hizkuni to 49:7.). If he were morally opposed to their behavior in Sh'khem, doesn't the actual slaying and pillage pale in significance next to their anger? Why mention that here?

[There is one other problem here, one which is beyond the scope of this shiur. Subsequent to Ya'akov's deathbed charge to his sons, the Torah states:

    All these are the twelve tribes of Israel; and this is it what their father spoke to them, and blessed them; every one according to his blessing he blessed them.

(49:28) How can we understand Ya'akov's words to Shim'on and Levi - along with his harsh words for Re'uven - as part of a blessing? Perhaps we will take this up when we get to Parashat VaY'chi.]

Indeed, one comment in the Midrash Rabbah contrasts the violent act which earned them this curse (?) with their valor in Sh'khem!:

    ...[Ya'akov] began calling out Shim'on and Levi are brothers... you acted like brothers to Dinah, as it says: two of the sons of Jacob, Shim'on and Levi, Dinah's brothers, took each man his sword.. but you did not act like brothers to Yoseph when you sold him. (B. Rabbah 99:7 - this Midrash can be associated with the comment in Midrash Rabbati of R. Moshe haDarshan, to wit: the each man to his brother mentioned in 37:19 at the sale of Yoseph refers to Shim'on and Levi; not coincidentally, Yoseph's abduction and sale took place in the Sh'khem region.)

Indeed, many Mefarshim maintain that the entire deathbed-charge of Ya'akov to Shim'on and Levi is only a reference to their role in the sale of Yoseph - who is also known as an ox (see D'varim 33:17).
...
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline MassuhDGoodName

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Re: Poor, sad, dancing Israeli soldiers
« Reply #93 on: July 08, 2010, 12:26:21 PM »
Re:  "Your malevolence is blatant "

One can not convince fellow Yehudim and other members here on the forum to accept a different position in a argument or debate by being resorting to "in your face" responses.

There's a time and place for that style of bluster, and it should be reserved for dealing with Israelis inside Israel, or for nazioid trolls.

There's an old saying:  "You catch more flies with honey than vinegar !"

Another great old saying:  "If you want to win an argument, first agree with your opponent, and then slowly walk them over to your side".


Offline muman613

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Re: Poor, sad, dancing Israeli soldiers
« Reply #94 on: July 08, 2010, 12:36:58 PM »
Here is the 'conclsion' of that discussion of the episode of the rape of Dinah... It supports KWRBTs opinion that the action was justified but the manner it was carried out was questionable...



...

V

YA'AKOV AND HIS SONS

We will first address the dispute between Ya'akov and his sons regarding the proper tactics in response to the rape of Dinah; resolving this question will provide us an approach to the other two.

Although a full treatment of this topic is beyond the scope of this shiur, we have to approach any differences in attitude which surface between Ya'akov and his children against the backdrop of their substantially different backgrounds and experiential matrices.

Whereas Ya'akov grew up knowing grandfather Avraham (Yitzchak was 60 when Ya'akov was born; hence Avraham was 160 at the time; therefore Ya'akov was 15 when Avraham died) and, of course, knowing father Yitzhak (according to Seder Olam, Ya'akov was 63 when Yitzhak sent him away to Lavan). Conversely, Ya'akov's sons never knew great-grandfather Avraham - nor did they even meet Yitzhak until he was quite aged and, from all textual and Midrashic evidence, quite incapacitated (see, inter alia, Rashi at B'resheet 28:10).

Ya'akov grew up in Eretz K'na'an, but had to spend the last twenty years (at least - see BT Megillah 17a) "on the run". In addition, before his fleeing to Aram, his life seems to be one of isolation, save his relationship with mother Rivkah. Our story (Ch. 34) rests somewhere along the continuum from Galut (exile) to Shivah (return) - and therein lies the rub. Ya'akov's children, although born and raised in what proved to be an environment of enmity, had a full family support system, as well as being brought up as the children of a wealthy and powerful member of Lavan's household.

In sum, Ya'akov was an Eretz-Yisra'eli who had been in galut for a substantial time - and who had a clear and direct connection with Avraham and Yitzhak. His children were born in Aram and had never tasted the pain and loneliness of exile - and they had had no direct encounters with the first or second generations of the clan.

As such, Ya'akov's response to the rape of Dinah has to be understood against this background. Both grandfather Avraham and father Yitzhak had experienced similar difficulties with local chieftains: Sarah was taken to Pharaoh's palace (Ch. 12) and to Avimelekh's rooms (Ch. 20). Rivkah, although never taken from Yitzhak, was presented as his sister out of the same fear of the local ruler and the general lack of morality (Ch. 26).

Here, Ya'akov, who had not yet encountered such a threat, was faced with a hauntingly familiar scenario - with some significant differences. Dinah was not falsely presented as a sister - she really was an unmarried sister! She was taken to the house of the local ruler, just as in the cases with Avraham - but here's where the similarities end. Whereas God had intervened on behalf of Avraham both in Egypt and in G'rar, the rape of Dinah was carried out with bestial success.

Ya'akov had every reason to consider as follows:

If father Avraham, for whom God was prepared to intervene to spare Sarah, and who was only wandering through that land, was prepared to "play the game" and not belligerently confront the locals - how much more so in this case. After all, God has not intervened to help us here; and these are my permanent neighbors, with whom I must be able to get along. If it was important to exercise restraint in galut - as I have with Lavan and, just now, with Esav - how much more so in the Land where I intend to establish my roots.

The brothers (note that Shim'on and Levi are only singled out in describing the slaying; all of the brothers participated in the cunning negotiations as well as the pillage of the city), coming from their critically distinct upbringing and experiences, viewed the situation and the appropriate response quite differently. The non-confrontational attitude which both Avraham and Yitzhak had adopted while traveling (see our analysis of the role of deception while traveling in the last two shiurim - available here and here. ) was only appropriate for a land you intend to leave - ultimately, if the locals think you weak, it will have no deleterious effect on your own well-being. That is not the case, they argued, in a land which you intend to settle. If the local peoples think of our daughters as "fair game", we will never gain their respect - or fear. Our lives will be a long series of attacks and oppression. It is better, goes the argument, to make our stand her e and now and let everyone know that we are not to be trifled with.

We now understand why Ya'akov did not originally take up arms - and why he was perturbed by their approach. It was not a moral opposition, rather a disapproval of their tactics which lay at the heart of his chastisement.

Both of their positions are easily in their respective arguments:

Ya'akov:

    You have brought trouble on me to make me odious among the inhabitants of the land, among the K'na'ani and the P'rizzi; and I being few in number, they shall gather together against me, and slay me; and I shall be destroyed, I and my house.

The brothers:

    Should he deal with our sister as with a harlot?

When we are talking about an individual who violates a young woman, the Torah does not consider it a capital offense; it allows for recompense and amelioration of the situation with a large fine as appropriate for a case of criminal assault. When, on the other hand, we are dealing with an attack which challenges the dignity and honor of the people of Yisra'el, that is a different matter entirely.

The Torah not only provides support for the brothers' position in the description of the ensuing travels which were "trouble-free", the Halakhah itself seems to lend support to this position:

    Rav Yehudah stated in the name of Rav: If foreigners besieged Israelite towns... with the intention of taking lives the people are permitted to sally forth against them with their weapons and to desecrate the Shabbat on their account. Where the attack, however, was made on a town that was close to a frontier, even though they did not come with any intention of taking lives but merely to plunder straw or stubble, the people are permitted to sally forth against them with their weapons and to desecrate the Shabbat on their account. (BT Eruvin 45a)
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline MassuhDGoodName

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Re: Poor, sad, dancing Israeli soldiers
« Reply #95 on: July 08, 2010, 12:41:56 PM »
We should look at the bright side!     :)

For three days those schmucks were hurting so bad that they wished they were dead!     >:(

And at least they died circumcized!         :::D

And the local butcher who was the "mohel" earned enough money cutting meat that week to make a down payment on a very nice camel complete with awning!        ;D

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: Poor, sad, dancing Israeli soldiers
« Reply #96 on: July 08, 2010, 12:45:50 PM »
Ron,

I think you are a little off base on some of the things you are saying here...

The issue with Schem and Dina was seen by their father as a big mistake. The Rabbis do not suggest that that episode is the way to deal in such a situation.  

Incorrect.

As Ron has already pointed out, major rishonim held that the Shechemites were hayav mita (guilty of the death penalty) for breaking one or another of the 7 noahide laws.   There are disagreements about which of these particular laws they broke (perhaps it's more than one!).   What Yaakov was against was the ANGER employed by his sons and/or the possible danger they put him in.  Not necessarily what they did and not that the Shechemites didn't deserve it.   Big difference.    And the Torah leaves off the dispute with their retort to their father saying along the lines of "Should our sister be treated as a harlot" - which is hardly an unambiguous ending from which to draw a conclusion on who was correct in the dispute.  Perhaps the Torah leaves off with that ambiguous conclusion so as to point to us there is validity in both sides of the argument.   But no one is saying the shechemites were innocent.   Yakov is NOT saying that according to the rishonim.  And the rishonim understood the Torah, unlike present-day liberal rabbis and certain kiruv promoters of "feel-good" Judaism.   These rabbis need to learn the facts and not speak about what they don't know.


I hope you are not saying that the Torah penalty for rape is death, or annihilation?

Did I say that?  No.  You just said that, Muman.  Please read carefully.

The Ramban, Rambam, and others discuss which of the noahide laws the Shechemites violated.    Off the top of my head without getting out the sources because I don't have time right now, one of them suggested they were guilty of the commandment to set up courts of law because they did not hold criminals accountable and they let shechem rape with impunity.   Another opinion said they were collectively guilty of kidnap (theft) for allowing it and harboring the criminal.   They were also apparently idol worshippers as evidenced by the idols removed from there afterward by the sons of Yaakov.   So there are disagreements about which specific commandment they were over on, but it seems to me valid to suggest that they were quite guilty in a combination of things.  But it is the violation of the 7 basic laws which carry the death penalty.

So halacha lemaaseh?   I'm not a posek, but I know that gentiles have to set up courts of law and try criminals (which civilized gentile countries do), and Jews can also convene a court of law and punish criminal acts made against Jews as well which we do today in our own state.   However today we do not employ the death penalty, but this may change in the future.  Gentile countries, however, do employ the death penalty for certain severe crimes.

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: Poor, sad, dancing Israeli soldiers
« Reply #97 on: July 08, 2010, 12:51:24 PM »
Also I'm pretty sure the Maharal praises Shimon and Levi if I am remembering correctly.  Or that might have been Malbim.   Yikes, clearly I need to brush up on this episode.

Offline IsraeliGovtAreKapos

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Re: Poor, sad, dancing Israeli soldiers
« Reply #98 on: July 08, 2010, 12:53:43 PM »
Also I'm pretty sure the Maharal praises Shimon and Levi if I am remembering correctly.  Or that might have been Malbim.   Yikes, clearly I need to brush up on this episode.

Yes it was the MaHaRal

Quote
המהר"ל - בדעה כי "מותרים ליקח נקמתם מהם". נכון כי במלחמות בין עם לעם, יש לפנות תחילה בדרכי שלום, אבל לא כאשר קדם לכך "מעשה נבלה".

Offline muman613

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Re: Poor, sad, dancing Israeli soldiers
« Reply #99 on: July 08, 2010, 12:58:22 PM »
I realize this thread is completely off topic but I hope that we can learn what the halacha is from these articles and the associated discussions. I am bringing something which supports your statements concerning Maharals opinion on this episode:



http://www.koltorah.org/ravj/Halachic_Perspectives_on_Civilian_Casualties_2.html



Halachic Perspectives on Civilian Casualties - Part 2 of 3
by Rabbi Chaim Jachter

Last week, we began a discussion of what might be the most important Halachic/ethical issue facing Medinat Yisrael and the civilized world: the question of harming civilians while attacking enemy forces. The survival of Medinat Yisrael and the entire civilized world might depend on this issue, as contemporary radical Islamic terrorists' modus operandi is to shelter themselves among civilians. In this way, they seek to take advantage of western sensibilities that are offended by harming civilians in battle. Our point of departure to resolving this quandary was the dispute between the Rambam, the Ramban, and the Maharal as to how to evaluate Shimon and Levi's killing the adult male population of Shechem in the wake of the capture and rape of Dinah (Bereishit chapter 34). The Rambam supports their action, arguing that the people of Shechem deserved to be punished due to their failure to punish their leaders for abducting and raping Dinah. The Ramban, on the other hand, maintains that Shimon and Levi were not justified, as the males of Shechem did not deserve capital punishment for this failure. The Maharal claims that although the males of Shechem were innocent, Shimon and Levi were justified in killing them, because in a war between nations, one does not distinguish between the innocent and the guilty.

Applying the Different Views

The Rambam and the Ramban argue as to whether Halacha considers an entire population responsible for the evil perpetrated by its leaders. As we discussed last week, it is difficult to discern whose opinion is endorsed by the Chumash. Indeed, Rav Shaul Yisraeli (Teshuvot Amud HaYemini 16) concludes his discussion of this debate, "In practice, there is insufficient basis to permit action against an entire community that has failed to execute its duty and remove murderers from its midst so long as it is reasonable to excuse them with the claim of fear, pressure, and the like."

However, prominent Poskim such as Rav Yaakov Ariel (Arachim BeMivchan HaMilchamah p. 83), Rav Dov Lior (Techumin 4:186), Rav Hershel Schachter (BeIkvei HaTzon p. 207) and Rav Asher Weiss (Minchat Asher Devarim 217-222) rely upon the Maharal's interpretation of the Shechem episode to allow harming anyone who belongs to an enemy nation during wartime. Rav Yitzchak Blau (Tradition Winter 2006 p. 11) argues, though, that "Maharal is a decidedly minority viewpoint with regard to that story and thus is a shaky leg upon which to build a far reaching position." Rav Dr. Neriah Gutel (Techumin 23:32) expresses similar reservations about applying the Maharal's principle in practice. We will seek to demonstrate why the Maharal is a most solid source and most definitely does not constitute a "shaky leg" upon which to base a resolution to our question.

Support for the Maharal

The Maharal's approach to the Shechem incident is endorsed by Rav Zalman Sorotzkin (Oznayim LaTorah, Bereishit 34:25), a leading mid-twentieth-century Halachic authority and Torah commentator. Furthermore, Rav Gutel (Techumin 23:34-35) convincingly demonstrates that the Netziv (Bereishit 9:5 and Devarim 20:8) believes that one is not punished for killing non-combatants during the course of battle. Thus, although the Netziv does not seem to subscribe to the Maharal's interpretation of the Shechem episode, he nonetheless agrees with the principle regarding killing civilians during wartime. In addition, Rav Schachter (ad. loc.) argues that the Netziv (commentary to Kiddushin 45a) articulates a principle that accords with the Maharal's approach.

Thus, even if the various commentators do not share the Maharal's defense of Shimon and Levi, they do not necessarily reject the underlying principle. They may believe that killing Shechem and Chamor would have sufficed to rescue Dinah and that waging war against the entire town was therefore uncalled for. In other words, the war against Shechem was unjustified, but in a just war one may attack without distinguishing between the innocent and guilty if it is impossible to wage war effectively in another manner.

Furthermore, Rav Asher Weiss notes that the Radak (Divrei HaYamim 1:22:8) also subscribes to the Maharal's principle. In his explanation of why David was disqualified from building the Beit HaMikdash due to the "blood that he had shed," he writes that David had killed non-combatants in the course of battle. However, he adds that David was not held accountable for their deaths, "since his intention was to eliminate evildoers so that they would not harm our nation." For further explanation of why this nonetheless would disqualify him from building the Mikdash, see Rav Elchanan Samet's Iyunim BeFarshiot HaShavua (1:68-69).

Furthermore, Rav Schachter (ad. loc.) argues that a principle presented by the Minchat Chinuch (425:3) also accords with the Maharal's approach. The Minchat Chinuch asserts that the rules forbidding endangering oneself do not apply in a situation of war. If a war is mandated by the Torah, then by definition, explains the Minchat Chinuch, it demands from soldiers to endanger their lives since, unfortunately, this is the normal course of war. Similarly, argues Rav Schachter, the Torah expects that we endanger the lives of civilians while waging a just war if this is necessary to achieve success. Rav Schachter notes that Rav Yitzchak Zev Soloveitchik (in his commentary to the Haftarah of Parashat VaYishlach) and Dayan Ehrenberg (Teshuvot Devar Yehoshua 2:48) concur with the assertion of the Minchat Chinuch.

Rav Shaul Yisraeli (ad. loc.) notes that "We do not find the obligation in war to distinguish between blood and blood (combatants and non-combatants). In the course of war, when laying siege to a city and the like, there is no obligation to make such distinctions." Rav J. David Bleich (Contemporary Halakhic Problems 3 p. 277) echoes this observation: "Not only does one search in vain for a ruling prohibiting military activity likely to result in the death of civilians, but to this writer's knowledge, there exists no discussion in classical rabbinic sources that takes cognizance of the likelihood of causing civilian casualties in the course of hostilities legitimately undertaken as posing a halakhic or moral problem." The vast response literature and that an assertion such as this made by Rav Bleich carries great weight.

Accordingly, we see that far from being a "decidedly minority viewpoint," the Maharal constitutes a mainstream and normative concept that is appropriately applied by the aforementioned leading Poskim. This is hardly surprising in light of King Shaul's warning to the Keini to evacuate their homes lest they be harmed in the course of war with Amaleik (Shmuel 1:15:6). We see that Shaul was prepared to endanger civilians in the course of war (and therefore told them to leave), and he was not censured for this by either the Tanach or Chazal. Both Rav Ariel (Techumin 4:190) and Rav Bleich (ad. loc.) cite this as strong support for the principle articulated by the Maharal. Moreover, this precedent extends the principle to harming even another nation living in proximity to the enemy if no viable alternative exists.

The Maharal and Imitating Hashem

We can further support the opinion of the Maharal from the principle of "Acharei Hashem Elokeichem Teileichu" (Devarim 13:5). This principle obligates us to imitate Hashem's actions. Chazal (Sotah 14a) offer such examples as "Just as Hashem visits the sick, we too should visit the sick" and "Just as Hashem buries the dead, we too should bury the dead." Rav Yosef Dov Soloveitchik in particular was fond of presenting further examples, such as "Just as Hashem is creative, we too should be creative" (see Ish HaHalacha pp. 84-85).

I would suggest that the Maharal's principle also constitutes an example of imitating Hashem. The Gemara (Bava Kama 60a) states, "When permission is given to an angel to destroy, it does not distinguish between good people and bad people." Rashi (commenting on Bereishit 6:13 s.v. Keitz Kol Basar) writes that whenever there is immorality, utter destruction comes to the world and kills the good with the bad. Note that had we not distinguished ourselves from the Egyptians (see Rashi to Shemot 12:6 s.v. VeHayah), our firstborns would have suffered the same fates as those of the Egyptians.

It seems obvious that Hashem, Who is good and merciful to all (Tehillim 145:9), would punish the good along with the bad only if no alternative exists. Similarly, when waging a legitimate war against a nation that has perpetrated evil, we may, or perhaps must, punish the innocent along with the guilty if no other viable alternative exists in order to wage a winning campaign.

The Maharal and the Geneva Convention

Rav Yisraeli and Rav Gutel note that Halacha seems to require conforming to the Geneva Convention and the norms of civilized countries regarding the ethical manner of waging war. This appears to apply even if the convention contradicts Halacha, just as we were required to honor the treaty we signed with the Givonim (Yehoshua chapter nine) despite the fact that it violated Halacha (see Rambam Hilchot Melachim 6:5).

Rav Yisraeli notes, however, that this applies not to the theory or rhetoric of the Geneva Convention, but rather to the manner in which it is practiced by civilized countries. This is similar to the idea I heard Rav Mordechai Willig cite in the name of Rav Aharon Kotler and Rav Moshe Feinstein that the rule of Dina DeMalchuta Dina (the obligation to honor the laws of land in which we reside) applies to the law as it is practiced and not as it is written. For example, Rav Kotler permitted driving sixty two miles-per-hour in a fifty five mile-per-hour zone, since the police did not issue a ticket for traveling at less than sixty three miles-per-hour.

Regarding warfare, liberal Harvard Professor Alan Dershowitz writes ("The Case for Israel" p. 167): "Although collective punishment is prohibited by international law, it is widely practiced throughout the world, including the most democratic and liberty-minded countries. Indeed, no system of international deterrence can be effective without some reliance on collective punishment. Every time one nation retaliates against another, it collectively punishes citizens of that country. The American and British bombings of German cities punished the residents of those cities. The atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki killed thousands of innocent Japanese for the crimes of their leaders. The bombing of military targets inevitably kills civilians."

We may add the following examples to Professor Dershowitz's list: The Allied blockade of the Central Powers to force them into submission via starvation and the doctrine of Mutually Assured Destruction, which prevented Soviet nuclear attack during the Cold War and which was predicated on the threat of collective punishment on a massive scale. I would argue that the practice of Allied forces during World Wars One and Two establishes the norm for how civilized nations should practice the principles articulated in the Geneva Convention when fighting an evil and tenacious enemy that is bent on annihilating its opponents. This standard is very much in harmony with the Maharal's principle of conduct during warfare.

Conclusion

Rav Ariel, Rav Lior, Rav Schachter, and Rav Weiss are without a doubt fully justified in following the principle articulated by the Maharal, which has a rock-solid basis in Tanach, Chazal, Rishonim, Acharonim, and basic Hashkafic principle. Thus, Halacha permits waging war without regard for civilian casualties if the war is justified and no viable alternative exists with which to wage a successful battle. Next week, we shall discuss the application of this principle to the current struggle of Israel and the civilized world against militant Islamic terror. We will focus on the critically important question of whether we should sacrifice "small" numbers of our soldiers in order to avoid large numbers of enemy casualties.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2010, 01:15:33 PM by muman613 »
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14