Author Topic: Concubine - Pilegesh  (Read 9978 times)

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Offline wonga66

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Concubine - Pilegesh
« on: July 26, 2010, 10:19:04 AM »
The opposite of early marriage is late marriage.

Or becoming a concubine?

Apparently the Halachic institution of concubinage - plagshut - is making a quiet comeback, with over-30 unmarried FFB women, desperate for a child while they can, becoming the plagshot of married Hassidic men in particular and having full procreative relations with them, with the full blessing of their rebbes and wives
http://pilegesh.blogspot.com/2007/08/black-and-blue.html

Can anyone confirm this?
« Last Edit: July 26, 2010, 10:26:22 AM by wonga66 »

Offline mord

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Re: Concubine - Pilegesh
« Reply #1 on: July 26, 2010, 10:31:22 AM »
The opposite of early marriage is late marriage.

Or becoming a concubine?

Apparently the Halachic institution of concubinage - plagshut - is making a quiet comeback, with over-30 unmarried FFB women, desperate for a child while they can, becoming the plagshot of married Hassidic men in particular and having full procreative relations with them, with the full blessing of their rebbes and wives
http://pilegesh.blogspot.com/2007/08/black-and-blue.html

Can anyone confirm this?
Yes i heard of it
Thy destroyers and they that make thee waste shall go forth of thee.  Isaiah 49:17

 
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Offline Lisa

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Re: Concubine - Pilegesh
« Reply #2 on: July 26, 2010, 11:22:24 AM »
I read something about it a long time ago. 

As I see it, it's just an excuse for men to cheat on their wives. 

Offline Dr. Dan

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Re: Concubine - Pilegesh
« Reply #3 on: July 26, 2010, 11:26:17 AM »
if it is true, it is a terrible perversion of judaism, in my opinion
If someone says something bad about you, say something nice about them. That way, both of you would be lying.

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Online Zelhar

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Re: Concubine - Pilegesh
« Reply #4 on: July 26, 2010, 12:20:17 PM »
The opposite of early marriage is late marriage.

Or becoming a concubine?

Apparently the Halachic institution of concubinage - plagshut - is making a quiet comeback, with over-30 unmarried FFB women, desperate for a child while they can, becoming the plagshot of married Hassidic men in particular and having full procreative relations with them, with the full blessing of their rebbes and wives
http://pilegesh.blogspot.com/2007/08/black-and-blue.html

Can anyone confirm this?
I haven't heard of it and if it exists I am sure it is only among some fringe groups.

Only thing related to pilegesh in modern day orthodox life that I know of is that unmarried couples who are in the process of chazara betshuva can use the pilegesh rules as a sort of excuse to them having relations without/prior to wedding.

Offline muman613

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Re: Concubine - Pilegesh
« Reply #5 on: July 26, 2010, 12:28:00 PM »
if it is true, it is a terrible perversion of judaism, in my opinion

I dont understand why you say this... You realize that our father Abraham had a concubine named Hagar. Jacob also had two concubines, Zipah and Bilah... I believe King David and King Solomon also had several concubines...


http://www.torah.org/learning/rabbizweig/5769/shemos.html

http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/637472/jewish/Why-arent-Bilhah-and-Zilpah-Jewish-Matriarchs.htm

http://www.aish.com/jl/h/48937102.html
Quote
Solomon makes one serious mistake. In violation of the Torah's prohibition He takes too many wives. In fact, he has 700 wives and 300 concubines.
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Online Zelhar

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Re: Concubine - Pilegesh
« Reply #6 on: July 26, 2010, 01:02:04 PM »
if it is true, it is a terrible perversion of judaism, in my opinion
If you refer to the implimentation of wonga and the "Jewish polygamy" sites he brought up then I agree with you. But the institution of pilegesh was both practical and progressive for its time.

Offline muman613

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Re: Concubine - Pilegesh
« Reply #7 on: July 26, 2010, 01:18:54 PM »
I did not check out the site he linked... But the concept of Concubines is a part of the Jewish religion. I have not read anything which supports this practice in todays age...

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

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Re: Concubine - Pilegesh
« Reply #8 on: July 26, 2010, 01:20:09 PM »
This is what the Breslov site says about it:



http://www.breslev.co.il/articles/judaism/concepts_in_judaism/the_concept_of_a_concubine.aspx?id=16531&language=english


Halacha: The Concept of Pilegesh (Concubine)

Let us examine more closely these attempts to popularize pilegesh relationships as forms of premarital, non-marital and extramarital relationships permitted by halacha. What is the true contemporary halachic status of pilegesh? Rambam explains that the word pilegesh is comprised of the words “Pi Shagal,” which indicates a woman who is used in both domestic and “intimate” ways. Alternatively the word pilegesh is related to the Hebrew/Aramaic palga isha, “half a wife,” and the Greek pallax/pallakis, “mistress” or “lover-girl.” In contemporary Israeli Hebrew, the word pilegesh is often used as the equivalent of the English “mistress” – i.e. the female partner in extramarital relations even when these relations have no legal recognition.
 
In the Talmud, a pilegesh is defined by Rav Yehudah in the name of Rav as a woman married without kidushin and without a ketubah (Babylonian Talmud, Sanhedrin 21). However, Rambam (Hilchot Ishut 1:4) defines a pilegesh as a woman without a ketubah butwith kidushin. Kidushin, whichmeans sanctified, is part of the marriage ceremony and reflects the holiness of Jewish marriage. During the ritual of kidushin, the man sanctifies his woman and designates her for himself and no other. According to Rambam, after the Torah was given, one who has relations with a woman without kidushin is punished with lashes by Torah law. A pilegesh without kidushin, is an institution exclusively reserved for Jewish kings. An ordinary person may not take a pilegesh, or engage in any type of relations outside of a marriage (Rambam, Hilchot Melachim 4:4).
 
The Shulchan Aruch, explains that if a man lived with a woman the way of znut, not for the sake of kidushin, she is not considered married. This is the case even if he designated her for himself and lived with her for the sake of intimate relations exclusively between the two of them. In this case, [the Rabbis] compel him to take her out of his home (Shulchan Aruch, Even HaEzer 26:1).
 
The Rema (Rabbi Moshe Isserless, ibid.) quotes the Ra’avad who maintains that a pilegesh is a woman who is designated to one man, and this is permitted as long as she goes to the mikvah at the appropriate times. It is important to note that even the Rabbis, who do not consider pilegesh to be an infringement on a Torah commandment, may still hold that pilagshut violates the positive commandment of the Torah that a man must marry by way of kidushin. The mitzvah for a man to marry is derived from Devarim 24:1. See Yad, Ishut 1:2; R. Shelomo Luria, Yam Shel Shelomo, Yevamot 2:11; Resp. Tzitz Eliezer 1:27, part 18.
 
The Rema concludes his comment by quoting the Rambam, Rosh, and Tur who rule that the practice of pilegesh is prohibited and liable for the punishment of lashes for transgressing the Torah prohibition of “There shall be no prostitutes of the daughters of Israel” (Devarim 23:18).
 
Likewise, the great Torah sage, Rabbi Yonah of Gerona writes: Our rabbis taught that the verse, “Do not prostitute your daughter to cause her to be a harlot, lest the land fall to harlotry, and the land become full of lechery,” comes to warn that a man should not give over his unmarried daughter for intercourse except in marriage... and a pilegesh without, ketubah and kidushin was only permitted to the king. (Gates of Repentance, part 3:94) The halachic position in case of a safek d’Oraita (the possibility of transgressing a Torah command) is to always be strict. Therefore, the accepted practice is to follow the ruling of the Rambam and to prohibit the practice of pilegesh. Rav Yakov Emden concludes that he would not permit the practice of pilegesh unless two other halachic authorities signed with him to permit it, and thus it has remained the practice not to allow it. (See Resp. Igerot Moshe, Eben HaEzer 1:55, where the prohibition of pilagshut is simply assumed).
 
Contemporary Halachic Responsa Regarding Pilegesh
 
Beyond the pilegesh, a 1979 teshuvah of the Central Conference of American Rabbis Responsa Committee provides textual references detailing rabbinic responsa intended to prevent “casual” sexual relationships between consenting adults and unmarried partners who have made a long-term commitment to each other. There can, after all, be no greater long-term commitment than that made between a properly married couple. There are several halachic responsa aimed atensuring that no sexual contact takes place even between a man and his betrothed bride prior to their wedding. For this reason, kidushin (betrothal) and nisuin (marriage) became fused into the single ceremony that still remains in place. One of the important motivations behind this enactment was the desire to prevent sexual contact prior to marriage, even for those who had formally committed themselves to each other through kidushin. It plainly follows that the contemplation of a sexual relationship for those who, no matter the depth or the longevity of their feelings, had made no formal commitment to each other would have been absolutely out of the question. Unmarried Jews must not live together, and certainly not to engage in sexual relationships, even if their personal commitment to each other is profound. The accepted standard is evidenced by the passage in the betrothal blessing (birkat erusin), “He has prohibited to us our betrothed spouses.” R. David Ibn Zimra stated the prohibition most clearly when he declared, “At present time a woman is permitted to no man except through chupah, sheva berachot and ketubah” (Resp. Radbaz 4:225; 7:33).
 
Rabbi Yaacov Ariel, Chief Rabbi of Ramat Gan, commenting on the issue of pilegesh explains that the rabbinical authorities who permitted the institution of pilegesh were not talking about the kind of temporary relationships found among young people today, but rather, lifelong commitments. Regarding this important distinction, he emphasizes that all halachic authorities agree that passing sexual relationships between unmarried people are forbidden, as a form of whoredom, even if the woman goes to the mikvah. Rabbi Ariel cites that, according to Rashi and the Gaon of Vilna, the ancient practice of pilegesh was, in fact, accompanied by a kosher marriage ceremony, or kidushin, so that the daughters of Israel should not fall into harlotry.
 
On the modern orthodox Nishmat Women’s Health and Halachawebsite a woman asks whether intimacy before marriage is permitted by the Torah through the status of “pilegesh.” The answer given is that pilegesh is forbidden by the Torah, as the Rambam understands the Torah prohibition of kedeshah (prostitution) to prohibit any sexual relations outside of the context of marriage. Therefore, there is no room for a woman to acquire the status of pilegesh nowadays. As challenging as it may be to refrain from physical relations prior to marriage, restraint is demanded by halacha. Halacha has a positive view of physical intimacy and its potential for joy and holiness exclusively within the halachic framework and commitment of marriage.
 
In the same vein, Rav Peretz Moncharsh answers a sha’alah regarding a divorced woman who is engaging in intimate relations with a man she is not married to. Would the institution of pilegesh be a legitimate halachic option for such a couple? The Rabbi answers that a pilegesh is not an option, because the majority opinion of the poskim is that it only applies to a king or to a marriage without a ketubah, but not to an extra-marital relationship. While she may consider her “friend” a princely fellow, halachah certainly does not accord him royal status.
 
Rabbi Zev Leff being asked the similar question, answers on an audio recording, that living together without kedushin is a Torah prohibition. A pilegesh relationship involving a man and a woman who live together without being married is actual znut (harlotry). Therefore, in order not to promote znut, the Rabbis prohibited single women from immersing in the mikvah. Although living with a niddah is a much more serious prohibition than living with a single woman after her mikvah, the Rabbis still considered it so important to minimize premarital/extramarital relations, that it took precedence over minimizing the transgression of sexually active unmarried couples. Rabbi Leff concludes that there is no heter (permission) for unmarried couples to live together, as we say at the marriage canopy: “Who forbade us those betrothed to us, but permitted us those married to us by means of chupah and kidushin”
(http://www.rabbileff.net/shiurim/answers/1250-1499/1437.mp3)
 
The Pilegesh Trend – Pursuit of Instant Gratification
 
The real problem facing us today is that the sanctity of marriage has broken down, even among the religious. The Kabbalist Rabbi Eliahu Leon Levi said that “One does not have to offer Kabbalistic explanations to understand that to renew the practice of pilegesh today would destroy the institution of Jewish marriage. A pilegesh was something exclusive to the times of the Bible.” Rabbi Yaacov Ariel, concurs: “Our duty as rabbis is to encourage the holy institution of marriage, not to ape the licentiousness of the Western world, which places egotistical satisfaction before everything else.” Unfortunately, those “spiritual leaders” who promote pilegeshut have seemingly forgotten that the main reason of our life is to perform mitzvoth and thereby elevate our lower inclinations in the service of Hashem. It seems to me that the main motivation for the attempt to halachically legitimize the institution of pilegesh, is in order to cater to the yetzer hara (selfish inclination) of religious people, who have become greatly influenced by the pleasure seeking of Western Society, and its pursuit of instant gratification. The problem is, that many of those practicing what they call a pilegesh relationship, validate their individual yetzer harah, believing that their actions are totally halachically justified. This reminds me of the Jewish gay movement. Before that movement became popular, a man, born with an abnormal sexual disposition, was aware that acting upon his tendencies, violates the Jewish practice. However, today some people do not see a contradiction between being gay and Jewishly observant.
 
Nowadays, you can find gay “Rabbis,” gay minyans (prayer quorums), and even gay “married couples.” In a similar manner, certain “Rabbis” and “spiritual leaders” wearing the orthodox garb with long beard and peyot, promote the social institution of pilegesh. They may quote and misquote all kinds of halachic sources to legalize their position, most often because of their personal desire to take a pilegesh for themselves. It is alarming that these “Rabbis” have no shortage of followers who welcome the opportunity for instant corporal gratification through minimum effort, without having to make any commitment. We may have compassion for a single man who is unable to control himself and live in long term celibacy. When such a man gives in to his inclination, he is fully aware that his behavior is far from the ideal, but that unfortunately, he can’t help himself. However, it is much more alarming when pleasure-seeking and lust turns into a trend, disguised by the so-called pilegesh relationship, without the slightest feeling of shame.
 
Spiritually Disadvantaged Women’s Lack of Self-Respect
 
I believe that the underlying reason for the growing number of Jewish women willing to become pilagshot, is an estrangement of women from their innate feminine nurturing strengths. A spiritually healthy Jewish woman yearns, by her very nature, for the long lasting, committed relationship of marriage and raising a family. For this reason, it was unnecessary for the Torah to command women to get married and become fruitful. Nowadays, unfortunately, influenced by Western society’s competitive career-race, pleasure-seeking, and the nonchalant, noncommittal attitude, certain Jewish women have lost their sense of true Jewish femininity. Being detached from their spiritual feminine essence causes these spiritually disadvantaged Jewish women, to lose their sense of dignity and self-respect. They are unaware how they degrade their Divine Image by allowing their bodies to be available for men, who are unwilling to make a lifelong commitment to them, and unite with them fully through both body and soul. I call on all believing Jewish women to start believing in themselves, and start to consider themselves fully deserving of their true soul-mate’s total love and commitment. May Hashem bless all single Jewish women to find committed Jewish marriage partners worthy of them!
« Last Edit: July 26, 2010, 01:26:00 PM by muman613 »
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline MassuhDGoodName

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Re: Concubine - Pilegesh
« Reply #9 on: July 26, 2010, 01:35:48 PM »
I'm all for it!

What?

You say that I'm "not Jewish enough" to have Lindsey Lohan?

Well, then, who do I get for a concubine?

Oh.    Sarah Kagan.

I get it now.

Offline MassuhDGoodName

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Re: Concubine - Pilegesh
« Reply #10 on: July 26, 2010, 01:51:06 PM »
Sounds like the best way I've heard yet to make all of secular Israel become frum!

Hey!...I've lost the number to the jail where they're holding Lindsey.

Can anyone help?

Offline MassuhDGoodName

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Re: Concubine - Pilegesh
« Reply #11 on: July 26, 2010, 02:12:13 PM »
MassuhD's method for ending the revival of Pilegesh:

Tell each Jewish man that he can have a concubine, but that she must be Sarah Kagan!

;D     :::D

Offline Debbie Shafer

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Re: Concubine - Pilegesh
« Reply #12 on: July 26, 2010, 04:53:58 PM »
Unbelieveable how many women lack self-esteem and allow themselves to get into these situations!

Offline Dr. Dan

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Re: Concubine - Pilegesh
« Reply #13 on: July 27, 2010, 05:36:18 AM »
I'm specifically regarding to this day of pilgesh. But if you want my opinion of back then, I'll give it to you even if it is unpopular to the observant letter of the law Jews here.

Any of you guys married?  Because I am. It's hard enough to give attention, love, take care of, and etc one wife. Imagine if it were 2 or more. Too much for true good husband to handle. And imagine the jealousy that would take place. Ever hear women gossip about each other?  If it were up to them they would be at each others' throats and then at your's.

You might say "abraham avinu did it. Jacob did it."  Look how far it took them. Each had a favorite wife they loved more. Each had favorite children they loved more. Each one had a wife that got jealous. And the child or children from the nonfavorite wife got into trouble everytime.

Oh but its permitted. If so, its unwise. Very unwise, even for a king. And sure, concubines. A bunch of girls with no self esteem leeching to a rich powerful guy. Sounds familiar?  Ever heard gold diggers?  Think there is any love there?  Concubines are another group of pointless women. Just users and the men who have them are the usees. A king and a prophet are supposed to be higher than that. I highly doubt a king of tomorrow a righteous king of tomorrow will do this. And really should be discouraged to do it as it would be unwise.

If someone says something bad about you, say something nice about them. That way, both of you would be lying.

In your heart you know WE are right and in your guts you know THEY are nuts!

"Science without religion is lame; Religion without science is blind."  - Albert Einstein

Offline Rubystars

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Re: Concubine - Pilegesh
« Reply #14 on: July 27, 2010, 06:56:35 AM »
At least wonga's topics stir up discussion, even if they can be rather contentious. I agree with Lisa and Dr. Dan on this one who said everything better than I could.

Offline Dr. Dan

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Re: Concubine - Pilegesh
« Reply #15 on: July 27, 2010, 01:24:06 PM »
You know, I'm never sure what Wonga's intentions are with these posts, but I agree with you, Rubystars, that it does create a nice discussion along with Jewish commentary on these subjects.  People like you, me, Lisa, and a bunch of others will react with common sense, right or wrong. However, it's always good to  get the detail of why and argue it with points and counterpoints...Nobody has countered my statement yet.
If someone says something bad about you, say something nice about them. That way, both of you would be lying.

In your heart you know WE are right and in your guts you know THEY are nuts!

"Science without religion is lame; Religion without science is blind."  - Albert Einstein

Offline muman613

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Re: Concubine - Pilegesh
« Reply #16 on: July 27, 2010, 01:27:30 PM »
I'm specifically regarding to this day of pilgesh. But if you want my opinion of back then, I'll give it to you even if it is unpopular to the observant letter of the law Jews here.

Any of you guys married?  Because I am. It's hard enough to give attention, love, take care of, and etc one wife. Imagine if it were 2 or more. Too much for true good husband to handle. And imagine the jealousy that would take place. Ever hear women gossip about each other?  If it were up to them they would be at each others' throats and then at your's.

You might say "abraham avinu did it. Jacob did it."  Look how far it took them. Each had a favorite wife they loved more. Each had favorite children they loved more. Each one had a wife that got jealous. And the child or children from the nonfavorite wife got into trouble everytime.

Oh but its permitted. If so, its unwise. Very unwise, even for a king. And sure, concubines. A bunch of girls with no self esteem leeching to a rich powerful guy. Sounds familiar?  Ever heard gold diggers?  Think there is any love there?  Concubines are another group of pointless women. Just users and the men who have them are the usees. A king and a prophet are supposed to be higher than that. I highly doubt a king of tomorrow a righteous king of tomorrow will do this. And really should be discouraged to do it as it would be unwise.



Dan,

Here is an issue which you have not addressed... What if a man marries a woman, tries to have children with her, but she is infertile... This is exactly the situation Abraham found himself in with Sarah, who was physically unable to have a child {until she miraculously had one at age 90}....

In this situation I think it is a great idea to allow the man to take a concubine... In order to pass on the Jewish blood to the next generation a man should find a Jewish concubine and have a Jewish child.

And yes, the Torah clearly states that some things are permitted but not advisable. Such laws include the Mitzvah of the Beautiful Captive and the allowance to have concubines... But there are situations where allowing concubines is a constructive idea.

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

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Re: Concubine - Pilegesh
« Reply #17 on: July 27, 2010, 01:29:15 PM »
From Chabads website:


http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/770990/jewish/Why-does-Torah-law-allow-polygamy.htm

Why does Torah law allow polygamy?
By Tzvi Freeman


Just to magnify your question somewhat, you'll note that Torah presents the original paradigm of marriage – that of Adam and Eve – as monogamous. Furthermore, virtually every instance of polygamy recounted in the Torah is related directly by the narrative to some sort of calamity—whether strife between competing wives, as was the case with Hannah and Peninah,1 or between rivaling half-siblings, e.g. Jacob's2 and King David's sons.3 Even the very verse4 in which the Torah provides a green light for polygamy frames it within an undesirable circumstance: "If a man will have two wives, one beloved and the other hated..."

Why then make room for trouble? If the ideal union of man and woman is an exclusive one, why should a "nation of priests and a holy people" compromise?

The simple answer is that Torah deals with life on earth, and the gamut of social life and human experience over all of history and world geography is too diverse to be restricted to one narrow ideal. Take, for example, an agrarian society whose male population has been decimated by war. How are women to survive and how is the population to replenish itself without the mechanism of polygamy? Similarly, a man married to a barren woman who could not produce sons to help in the field and defend the fort would find himself ill put to survive in those times. In an exclusively monogamous society, his wife would find her position insecure. Although, in normative circumstances, being "only one of many" compromises a woman's value as a person, in these situations a permit for polygamy is a form of compassion.

The only case of a polygamous rabbi recorded in the Talmud5 provides an excellent illustration: Rabbi Tarfon married 300 women. Why? Because there was a famine in the land. But Rabbi Tarfon had plenty of food, since he was a Kohen and received the priestly tithes. The wife of a Kohen is also permitted to eat those tithes. Those 300 women were very happy that the Torah permitted polygamy.

Torah discourages abuse of this permit—not just by recounting the calamitous narratives mentioned above, but also by placing requirements on the husband. For every extra wife, no matter how lowly her status, a man must provide "food, clothing and conjugal rights" commensurate to her needs, his capacity and equal to any other wives.6 Additionally, the husband must provide separate housing for each wife. Divorce requires involvement of the scribes, and the sages later instituted the ketubah as a further impediment of divorce. (See also Why is Jewish Marriage so One-Sided?) We see that these means were in fact effective, polygamy in Jewish circles was historically a rare exception.

Rare, but necessary nevertheless. Even when Rabbi Gershom and his Rabbinical Court assembled to create a ban on polygamy due to the conditions of their time (see previous link for more on this injunction), they nevertheless left the door open for extenuating circumstances. That loophole has proven vital in many an instance—for example, the case of a wife who has become (G‑d forbid) mentally incapacitated and is not halachically qualified to receive a divorce.

You may wish to think of Torah as the DNA of a highly resilient organism called the Jewish People. Whenever circumstances change, this organism looks back into its DNA and finds some code that allows for an adaptive modality. There's plenty off limits, but there is enough leeway to provide for every situation human life on planet earth can throw at you. Proof is, we've been through it all – nomadic, agrarian, civilized, industrial, technological – and in every part of the world, and we're still here, strong as ever.



PS: I was married for 15 years and I know all about how a woman gets jealous over the most ridiculous things. I was accused for many years of infidelity but I was completely monogamous with her... Now that we both have grown {and we are divorced} she has come to realize that her jealousy was misplaced and she asked for my forgiveness {which I surely granted}...

« Last Edit: July 27, 2010, 01:34:20 PM by muman613 »
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

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Re: Concubine - Pilegesh
« Reply #18 on: July 27, 2010, 01:29:42 PM »
How long is Wonga going to continue trolling here?

Offline IsraeliGovtAreKapos

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Re: Concubine - Pilegesh
« Reply #19 on: July 27, 2010, 01:33:20 PM »
I read something about it a long time ago. 

As I see it, it's just an excuse for men to cheat on their wives. 

I thought women love being cheated

Offline muman613

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Re: Concubine - Pilegesh
« Reply #20 on: July 27, 2010, 01:36:06 PM »
How long is Wonga going to continue trolling here?

He asked a legitimate question. I don't consider it trolling. The Torah does allow Concubines although, as my post from Breslov points out, it is no longer practiced in todays society.

 
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

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Re: Concubine - Pilegesh
« Reply #21 on: July 27, 2010, 01:41:02 PM »
Not necessarily related to this topic but interesting non-the-less:


http://www.learningtorah.org/DvarTorah/ViewDvarTorah.aspx?dtID=317

PARASHAT KI TETZE: The "Beautiful Captive"
Author: Rav Mordechai Sabato


 Chazal explain the reasoning behind the parsha of "yefat to'ar" (the beautiful woman captive) as follows (Kiddushin 21b): "The Torah permits this only as a compromise to the yetzer ha-ra. For it is better that Israel eat kosher meat rather than neveila (non-kosher) meat." In the Midrash Tana'im on Devarim (edition of Rav Hoffman, p.127) this is illustrated further by the following parable: "A youth, born into nobility, desired a certain thing which he was not permitted to have. His father tried to convince him, saying, 'My son - if you partake of that now, it will harm you.' When he saw that his son was taking no heed, he said, 'Do such and such, and then it will not harm you.' Likewise the Israelite soldier is commanded, 'Remove the captive's garment from upon her....'"

A. Rashi

This reasoning is brought by Rashi in his commentary on Devarim: "'And you shall take her unto you as a wife' - the Torah only permits this in the context of the yetzer ha-ra, for if God would not permit her to him, he would marry her anyway despite the prohibition. But if he marries her he will end up hating her..." (Devarim 12:10). Following in the footsteps of the Sifri, Rashi understands the continuation of the parasha accordingly:

"'And she shall do her nails' -

i.e., grow them long until she becomes distasteful.

'And she shall remove her garment of captivity' -

for these garments are beautiful; the gentile maidens used to dress and decorate themselves in the midst of the battle in order to lead others astray.

'And she shall sit in your house' -

in the house which is his usual habitation, such that when he comes in he sees her and when he goes out he sees her, he sees her crying, he sees her distastefulness, in order that she become disgraceful in his eyes.

'And she shall cry for her father...' -

why? In order that a Jewish maiden will appear joyful and this girl sad; the Jewish maiden pretty and this girl disgraceful.

'And it shall be that if he does not desire her' -

the Torah is already informing you that in the end you will hate her."

 

According to the above understanding it would appear that this parasha comes to teach us that the Torah permits marriage to a gentile woman in a battlefield situation, even though in general it is prohibited, but is not happy with the idea. For this reason, the permission to marry the woman is dependent on the fulfillment of a whole string of stipulations, the collective purpose of which is to make her distasteful in his eyes and ultimately to prevent this marriage from taking place. Rashi does not comment on whether he believes that the Torah requires that the woman convert to Judaism or not. (Rashi to Kiddushin 22a: The marriage is valid, even though ... she does not convert of her own free will.") The Ramban, in his commentary on the Torah, states: "And the reason for this parasha is because she converts against her will; she is not asked whether she wishes to leave her religion and convert to Judaism as is the usual practice for converts. Here the husband tells her to observe the Torah of Israel - against her will - and to leave her beliefs."

...

Read more about this @ http://www.learningtorah.org/DvarTorah/ViewDvarTorah.aspx?dtID=317

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Dr. Dan

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Re: Concubine - Pilegesh
« Reply #22 on: July 27, 2010, 01:44:51 PM »
I'm specifically regarding to this day of pilgesh. But if you want my opinion of back then, I'll give it to you even if it is unpopular to the observant letter of the law Jews here.

Any of you guys married?  Because I am. It's hard enough to give attention, love, take care of, and etc one wife. Imagine if it were 2 or more. Too much for true good husband to handle. And imagine the jealousy that would take place. Ever hear women gossip about each other?  If it were up to them they would be at each others' throats and then at your's.

You might say "abraham avinu did it. Jacob did it."  Look how far it took them. Each had a favorite wife they loved more. Each had favorite children they loved more. Each one had a wife that got jealous. And the child or children from the nonfavorite wife got into trouble everytime.

Oh but its permitted. If so, its unwise. Very unwise, even for a king. And sure, concubines. A bunch of girls with no self esteem leeching to a rich powerful guy. Sounds familiar?  Ever heard gold diggers?  Think there is any love there?  Concubines are another group of pointless women. Just users and the men who have them are the usees. A king and a prophet are supposed to be higher than that. I highly doubt a king of tomorrow a righteous king of tomorrow will do this. And really should be discouraged to do it as it would be unwise.



Dan,

Here is an issue which you have not addressed... What if a man marries a woman, tries to have children with her, but she is infertile... This is exactly the situation Abraham found himself in with Sarah, who was physically unable to have a child {until she miraculously had one at age 90}....

In this situation I think it is a great idea to allow the man to take a concubine... In order to pass on the Jewish blood to the next generation a man should find a Jewish concubine and have a Jewish child.

And yes, the Torah clearly states that some things are permitted but not advisable. Such laws include the Mitzvah of the Beautiful Captive and the allowance to have concubines... But there are situations where allowing concubines is a constructive idea.




I know about those two instances actually.  The first one you mention, Judaism allows for a man to divorce his wife; not necessarily marry another woman and have two wives...again correct me if I'm wrong in this instance.  I know that there was a commentary that had a story attached to it about this specifically. Maybe you'll be familiar with it:  

There was a situation in which a husband and a wife loved each other soooooo much and 10 years passed and they were unable to have children so the husband went to the wife and said that he had to divorce her, but because he loved her so much she can take anything from their home and bring it back to her father's.  The next day the husband woke up in her father-in-law's home next to her.

So again, my understanding of the rule is that if it were the case that they couldn't have children and it was 7-10 years or whatever the Torah/Talmud say, the husband is permitted to divorce his wife and marry another woman..not necessarily take on two wives.

The second point I want to make on this instance is what the Rabbis say about adoption of a motherless and fatherless child or a woman who will carry a child to term for a couple that originates from the husband's sperm, but without any marriage or extra marital relations.  If these things are possible without causing heartache and divorce and concubines, then why can't that be an option?


If someone says something bad about you, say something nice about them. That way, both of you would be lying.

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Offline muman613

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Re: Concubine - Pilegesh
« Reply #23 on: July 27, 2010, 01:49:56 PM »
I find a few insights in this discussion of the Polygamy of the Patriarchs and Matriarchs:



http://www.ou.org/torah/tt/5766/chukat66/navi.htm

...

"Building Beit Yisrael" [3]

In our modern times of the nuclear family and hedonism it is perhaps often difficult, even sub-consciously, to understand the true religious perspective of the barrenness and yearning for children of Rachel and Leah. Cultural trends, to which we are exposed willy-nilly contribute to the difficulty. Sociologists tell us that in the Middle East, ancient and modern, sons are the measure of a man's wealth and social standing, demeaning thereby the role and status of the barren wife. Psychologists and some religious teachers add to this, child bearing and nurturing being the fulfillment of women's emotional or spiritual role. Marx and Engels, and perhaps even modern feminists albeit unconsciously, see in both of these views a justification for the oppression and denigration of women. However, none of this applies to our stories in Bereishit of the barren Matriarchs. "These are rooted deeply in the teaching that the pure seed of Klal Yisrael had to have its source beyond Nature, as befits the nation whose whole existence lies in the miraculous and the Divine" (Ramban). Indeed, Rachel and Leah simply were consumed by yearning and sanctity to bear the 12 sons from whom are to come Am Yisrael, the receivers of Torah and inheritors of Eretz Yisrael so that a human Holy Nation and Kingdom of Priests can be built. Indeed they are only some of the players in bearing those sons.

Sarah the first Matriarch was likewise barren, and in her spirituality and understanding of that future, in order to make it possible, she was even willing to introduce her maid into her household despite the complications and problems that followed. The second Matriarch Rivka and her husband Yitschak, jointly prayed for the same goal. Later, Tamar and Ruth risked their very lives to give that Nation and Kingdom the Kingship that it would need to fulfill its spiritual task.

Yaakov too, had the same yearning to establish the future Avrahamic Nation. "How is it that Yaakov chose to differ from the tzaddikim of previous generations? Adam, Seth, Noah, Shem and Ever, never took more than one wife. Yitschak married Rivka but took no concubines, while Avraham took Hagar only at the suggestion of Sarah. However, Yaakov took two sisters and their maids as his wives. He knew that he was the last of the Avot and that there had to be a nucleus to go into exile, sufficiently large so that they could grow to be the multitude that God had promised.

However, since he was already quite old when he married, there was a danger that he, like Avraham and Yitschak, would only have one son and then the future of Am Yisrael would not be assured. So he married the four women simply in order to establish the 12 tribes" (Abarbanel).

"When God saw that Leah was the hated one, He opened her womb, but Rachel was barren". "Far be it from us to think that Leah was hated by Yaakov, for one is forbidden to marry a woman that one hates. Rather as we learn from the case of a man who has two wives, one loved and the other hated [D'varim 21:15], this means only that one is more loved than the other. [This is common in societies practicing polygamy that one wife is considered the main wife]. So it was with Yaakov who loved Rachel more than Leah but he loved Leah as well, as the verse (29:30) tells us. Yet in her own eyes, Leah felt that she was less loved, so God saw her suffering and opened her womb" (Radak). "Here the Name Hashem [Merit of Mercy is used] whereas with regard to Rachel's barrenness Yaakov says that Elokim [Merit of Justice] has withheld children from her. This teaches us that it was God's mercy alone that caused Leah to give birth otherwise Judgment would have demanded that she remain barren like Sarah, Rivka, and Rachel until such time as He decreed miracles" (R' Hoffman). From the Midrash we learn more. "G-d saw that Leah, in her resolution not to be married to Eisav, defrauded Yaakov thus acting in the way of those that He hates; now He gave her her just reward, a son from that tzaddik. God hearkens to the poor, the miserable ones and the barren women. This is Leah; for when God saw her suffering He opened her womb. [Furthermore, understanding S'NU'A in the midrash to come from the Latin 'to pierce like a thorn'], she was hated by people, even women who were strangers, even those who were outcasts from society, spoke slightingly about her saying that she had supplanted her sister and that showed she was not as pious as she pretended to be. Yaakov thought that because of her barrenness she had agreed to Lavan's deception so he thought of divorcing Leah. When God saw that, He opened her womb so she gave birth, and He said to Yaakov, 'the mother of these sons you would divorce?' In the end, Yaakov gave recognition to Leah's spiritual greatness, as we read, "And Yaakov bowed to the head of the bed" [after blessing the sons of Yosef]. Who was the head of Yaakov's bed? Leah" (Bereishit Rabba 71:1-2).

"That which was denied to the bride and wife [Rachel] was fully given to the mother of his children [Leah]. It was just to Leah the sad one that it was decreed to experience and immortalize the cheerful and brightest aspects of home and marriage, while to Rachel the happy one was allocated the more serious ones" (R' S.R. Hirsch).

"Rachel is the mainstay of Beit Yaakov" (Midrash Bereishit Rabba 71:2). Yet Leah bears half of the 12 Tribes and provides Israel with Priesthood and Kingship. It has been suggested to me that as far as the nation is concerned Leah is the mainstay, while to Yaakov the man, Rachel whom he loved more is the mainstay as the wife is the mainstay of every husband. Furthermore, the Midrash continues: "Everything is dependent on Rachel, therefore Israel is named after her; 'Rachel weeps for her children' (Yirmiyahu 31:15)". The Midrash concludes: "Everybody at that feast [for the birth of Ruth's son] was from Leah yet everything depends on Rachel; everybody present was from Yehuda, descendant of Leah, yet they blessed Ruth that she should be like Rachel and Leah who [supplementing and completing each other], together built the House of Yaakov, placing Rachel first".
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Dr. Dan

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Re: Concubine - Pilegesh
« Reply #24 on: July 27, 2010, 02:07:58 PM »


Muman, your post is noted. Thanks


quote author=muman613 l


ink=topic=48219.msg459318#msg459318 date=1280251755]
From Chabads website:


http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/770990/jewish/Why-does-Torah-law-allow-polygamy.htm

Why does Torah law allow polygamy?
By Tzvi Freeman


Just to magnify your question somewhat, you'll note that Torah presents the original paradigm of marriage – that of Adam and Eve – as monogamous. Furthermore, virtually every instance of polygamy recounted in the Torah is related directly by the narrative to some sort of calamity—whether strife between competing wives, as was the case with Hannah and Peninah,1 or between rivaling half-siblings, e.g. Jacob's2 and King David's sons.3 Even the very verse4 in which the Torah provides a green light for polygamy frames it within an undesirable circumstance: "If a man will have two wives, one beloved and the other hated..."

Why then make room for trouble? If the ideal union of man and woman is an exclusive one, why should a "nation of priests and a holy people" compromise?

The simple answer is that Torah deals with life on earth, and the gamut of social life and human experience over all of history and world geography is too diverse to be restricted to one narrow ideal. Take, for example, an agrarian society whose male population has been decimated by war. How are women to survive and how is the population to replenish itself without the mechanism of polygamy? Similarly, a man married to a barren woman who could not produce sons to help in the field and defend the fort would find himself ill put to survive in those times. In an exclusively monogamous society, his wife would find her position insecure. Although, in normative circumstances, being "only one of many" compromises a woman's value as a person, in these situations a permit for polygamy is a form of compassion.

The only case of a polygamous rabbi recorded in the Talmud5 provides an excellent illustration: Rabbi Tarfon married 300 women. Why? Because there was a famine in the land. But Rabbi Tarfon had plenty of food, since he was a Kohen and received the priestly tithes. The wife of a Kohen is also permitted to eat those tithes. Those 300 women were very happy that the Torah permitted polygamy.

Torah discourages abuse of this permit—not just by recounting the calamitous narratives mentioned above, but also by placing requirements on the husband. For every extra wife, no matter how lowly her status, a man must provide "food, clothing and conjugal rights" commensurate to her needs, his capacity and equal to any other wives.6 Additionally, the husband must provide separate housing for each wife. Divorce requires involvement of the scribes, and the sages later instituted the ketubah as a further impediment of divorce. (See also Why is Jewish Marriage so One-Sided?) We see that these means were in fact effective, polygamy in Jewish circles was historically a rare exception.

Rare, but necessary nevertheless. Even when Rabbi Gershom and his Rabbinical Court assembled to create a ban on polygamy due to the conditions of their time (see previous link for more on this injunction), they nevertheless left the door open for extenuating circumstances. That loophole has proven vital in many an instance—for example, the case of a wife who has become (G‑d forbid) mentally incapacitated and is not halachically qualified to receive a divorce.

You may wish to think of Torah as the DNA of a highly resilient organism called the Jewish People. Whenever circumstances change, this organism looks back into its DNA and finds some code that allows for an adaptive modality. There's plenty off limits, but there is enough leeway to provide for every situation human life on planet earth can throw at you. Proof is, we've been through it all – nomadic, agrarian, civilized, industrial, technological – and in every part of the world, and we're still here, strong as ever.



PS: I was married for 15 years and I know all about how a woman gets jealous over the most ridiculous things. I was accused for many years of infidelity but I was completely monogamous with her... Now that we both have grown {and we are divorced} she has come to realize that her jealousy was misplaced and she asked for my forgiveness {which I surely granted}...


[/quote]
If someone says something bad about you, say something nice about them. That way, both of you would be lying.

In your heart you know WE are right and in your guts you know THEY are nuts!

"Science without religion is lame; Religion without science is blind."  - Albert Einstein