Author Topic: comparing the bible creation to evolution timeline  (Read 20639 times)

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Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: comparing the bible creation to evolution timeline
« Reply #75 on: October 13, 2010, 09:52:06 PM »
בס''ד

Guys! What is going on here?

Why the insults? Please! Can't we debate on this forum without insults? Both of you are great people. You should respect each other.

Chaim, don't give me this.

I respect Dan Ben Noah.  He does not return the favor.   He belittles my religiosity like a little school girl because he is scared of what I write.    I can't do anything about that but I'm not going to back down to his wimpy ad hominem attacks and false claims about me.   I'm not a pious rabbi, I'm a regular Jew that's not going to let him walk over me behaving like an animal.    

In his mind if you read scripture differently than him, you're a heretic.  These are the kind of nuts who destroy Judaism and put up bans of concerts and try to ban all the things they don't like with their meaningless posters that no one reads.   But sometimes good people do get hurt by this narishkeit even tho no one cares about these nuts.   I'm certainly not going to take this crap.

בס''ד

I didn't read the whole argument here but I don't see this. He is simply disagreeing with you. Can't we have vigorous and healthy arguments here between friends?


Disagreeing with me by claiming I don't believe in G-d?

בס''ד

Both of you have gotten carried away here. KWRBT, you know who Dan is and how much he does for the cause.

I think/thought Dan is great but that doesn't excuse his behavior here.

He cannot dictate how people read the scripture and then claim that anyone who reads it differently from him is a heretical german bible critic.

I don't believe I was carried away until he started taking jabs at me.   Maybe I'm wrong for responding in kind but I don't think this type of crap should be tolerated on the forum.

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Re: comparing the bible creation to evolution timeline
« Reply #76 on: October 13, 2010, 09:52:15 PM »
בס''ד

Let's argue this like friends. What is the main issue here?

Online Chaim Ben Pesach

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Re: comparing the bible creation to evolution timeline
« Reply #77 on: October 13, 2010, 09:54:20 PM »
בס''ד

Guys! What is going on here?

Why the insults? Please! Can't we debate on this forum without insults? Both of you are great people. You should respect each other.

Chaim, don't give me this.

I respect Dan Ben Noah.  He does not return the favor.   He belittles my religiosity like a little school girl because he is scared of what I write.    I can't do anything about that but I'm not going to back down to his wimpy ad hominem attacks and false claims about me.   I'm not a pious rabbi, I'm a regular Jew that's not going to let him walk over me behaving like an animal.    

In his mind if you read scripture differently than him, you're a heretic.  These are the kind of nuts who destroy Judaism and put up bans of concerts and try to ban all the things they don't like with their meaningless posters that no one reads.   But sometimes good people do get hurt by this narishkeit even tho no one cares about these nuts.   I'm certainly not going to take this crap.

בס''ד

I didn't read the whole argument here but I don't see this. He is simply disagreeing with you. Can't we have vigorous and healthy arguments here between friends?


Disagreeing with me by claiming I don't believe in G-d?

בס''ד

Both of you have gotten carried away here. KWRBT, you know who Dan is and how much he does for the cause.

I think/thought Dan is great but that doesn't excuse his behavior here.

He cannot dictate how people read the scripture and then claim that anyone who reads it differently from him is a heretical german bible critic.

I don't believe I was carried away until he started taking jabs at me.  

בס''ד

I think both of you have been taking jabs at each other. Can we discuss this issue in a civil manner? What's the main issue of contention here?

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: comparing the bible creation to evolution timeline
« Reply #78 on: October 13, 2010, 09:58:18 PM »
בס''ד

Let's argue this like friends. What is the main issue here?


Dan ben Noah insists that there are no differences between Bereshith chapter 1 and Bereshith chapter 2.   I disagree and point out several differences.   He then twists and turns and reads non-literally to explain away the differences.  

I believe that the fact these differences occur are indicative of the fact that in general the maaseh bereshith are not to be understood literally.   I think there is ample support for this concept.  

I mentioned Rav Soloveitchik who discusses "Adam I" and "Adam II" and goes at length about man's dual role in society.   This is elaborated in Lonely Man of Faith, which Dan prefers that I summarize in one sentence, which I am not going to do and have him belittle it like he has belittled the interpretation of Bereshith that differs from his.

Of course this is not the only example.   The Rambam describes the days of creations as categories, not time periods.   He also says that one cannot date the creation to a specific date (because that's pagan to do so).   This is a complicated discussion in Moreh Nevuchim.    There are many other rishonim who ask kashiyas related to the accounts of creation in Chapter 1 and chapter 2 indicating that these are valid questions to ask and one cannot simply brush them away with a wave of the hand.     For this I'm accused of being a german bible critic, and of course Rav Soloveitchik isn't frum enough, and the Rambam is to rationalist, and so-and-so is too mystical, etc etc.    

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: comparing the bible creation to evolution timeline
« Reply #79 on: October 13, 2010, 09:59:01 PM »
I was trying to defend the fact that Genesis 2 does not contradict Genesis 1.  I thought I was being fairly civil, but I can stop, I have to get going for tonight anyway.

Calling me an atheist is civil?

Saying I don't believe in God is civil?   Saying I don't believe the Scripture is civil?

How so?

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: comparing the bible creation to evolution timeline
« Reply #80 on: October 13, 2010, 10:01:12 PM »
And ironically, one of his non-literal readings "The day of God's creating" - is similarly a non-literal reading that I apply (as does my rabbi, as do many frum Jews and I believe you said in ask JTF this week that you do as well Chaim) to the FIRST chapter of Bereshith where it says Day 1, 2nd day, third day, etc.    Ie, these are not literally 24 hour periods when it says yom.   And with this reading I understand the Torah as leaving open the possibility for a world billions of years old, which it is.

Dan ben noah insists that this reading is ok for Chapter 2, but to read this into Chapter 1 is heretical.    This only points to the absurdity of the claim he is trying to uphold. 

Offline Meerkat

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Re: comparing the bible creation to evolution timeline
« Reply #81 on: October 13, 2010, 10:02:10 PM »
I was trying to defend the fact that Genesis 2 does not contradict Genesis 1.  I thought I was being fairly civil, but I can stop, I have to get going for tonight anyway.

Calling me an atheist is civil?

Saying I don't believe in G-d is civil?   Saying I don't believe the Scripture is civil?

How so?

let our side be the mature ones in this and try to explain our position more calmly.

Offline IsraeliGovtAreKapos

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Online Chaim Ben Pesach

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Re: comparing the bible creation to evolution timeline
« Reply #83 on: October 13, 2010, 10:03:55 PM »
בס''ד

KWRBT, Dan does not think you are an atheist. He simply feels that your views are wrong and don't make sense to him.

BTW, there is rabbinic support for both of your views. But most of Chazal believe that the story of Bereshit is symbolic and not literal. Also there is a Jewish concept that there is no time line in the Torah. Things are not literally written about in historic order, or not necessarily.

The written Torah is not a history book or a science book. It is a book to instruct mankind.

Offline Meerkat

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Re: comparing the bible creation to evolution timeline
« Reply #84 on: October 13, 2010, 10:06:04 PM »

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: comparing the bible creation to evolution timeline
« Reply #85 on: October 13, 2010, 10:07:18 PM »
בס''ד

BTW, there is rabbinic support for both of your views. But most of Chazal believe that the story of Bereshit is symbolic and not literal. Also there is a Jewish concept that there is no time line in the Torah. Things are not literally written about in historic order, or not necessarily.

The written Torah is not a history book or a science book. It is a book to instruct mankind.

I agree with you on this 100%.

But will Dan Ben Noah call your point "nonsense" like he refers to ideas of Rav Soloveitchik?

Will he similarly doubt that you believe in the Bible because you think the world is older than 6000 years?   I hope not.  I hope we can get past those kind of assumptions.


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Re: comparing the bible creation to evolution timeline
« Reply #86 on: October 13, 2010, 10:10:38 PM »
בס''ד

So what is the value of the Torah? We know that the instructions in it are divinely inspired because they were given to the entire Jewish people at Mount Sinai. And we know that the prophesies of the Torah are being fulfilled in our day. And we know that there are deeper meanings and codes in the Torah that could only have been divinely inspired.

But the Torah is not intended to give us a time line on events. The snake for instance is regarded by most of Chazal as the yetzer harah (the evil inclination). The recounting of what took place in the Sinai desert during the 40 years of wandering is clearly not in order. Because every word, every letter in the Torah has a deeper meaning with answers for how we should be living and for how we can redeem this world.

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Re: comparing the bible creation to evolution timeline
« Reply #87 on: October 13, 2010, 10:14:16 PM »
בס''ד

But KWRBT there are rabbinic sages who do believe that the world is 6000 years old. So Dan's views are not invalid.

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: comparing the bible creation to evolution timeline
« Reply #88 on: October 13, 2010, 10:17:30 PM »
בס''ד

But KWRBT there are rabbinic sages who do believe that the world is 6000 years old. So Dan's views are not invalid.

I'm not saying they are invalid, even if I think they are wrong or incorrect.   I'm saying let the other side air their views and do not resort to calling them heretical just because one disagrees.     That is what set me off, and I regret that I reacted to that emotionally.   However, I am trying to stress that it is simply inaccurate and dishonest to label the opposing view as heretical just because one adheres to the 6000 year old world view.

Just because some do NOT view the world as 6000 years old does not mean such people should be labeled as german bible critics or worshipers of modern society, not frum enough, etc...

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: comparing the bible creation to evolution timeline
« Reply #89 on: October 13, 2010, 10:21:14 PM »
Since I regret reacting in the way that I did and I am embarrassed that I said certain things, I'm going to edit a few of my comments.

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Re: comparing the bible creation to evolution timeline
« Reply #90 on: October 13, 2010, 10:22:37 PM »
בס''ד

If someone says something that seems offensive, very often they do not mean to be offensive. It is just their way of expressing themselves. But in any event, we should not respond with anger especially if we know that we are speaking about a great fellow JTFer.

There have been some angry exchanges here the past few days. I have been unable to intervene because I have been very busy with other things that are happening in our movement. We should always try to be polite, patient and kind to our fellow JTFers. After all, we are all part of the same struggle.

Offline muman613

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Re: comparing the bible creation to evolution timeline
« Reply #91 on: October 13, 2010, 10:48:07 PM »
בס''ד

If someone says something that seems offensive, very often they do not mean to be offensive. It is just their way of expressing themselves. But in any event, we should not respond with anger especially if we know that we are speaking about a great fellow JTFer.

There have been some angry exchanges here the past few days. I have been unable to intervene because I have been very busy with other things that are happening in our movement. We should always try to be polite, patient and kind to our fellow JTFers. After all, we are all part of the same struggle.

Amen...

I just brought up that concept of the serpent as the Yetzer Hara in a discussion this evening totally unrelated to this topic...

We should learn as much as we can from the Torah, the commentaries of the sages, and the Midrash... It does not always need to be understood literally as long as the underlying concepts are learned.

As I said before... I have no problem with the science so long as it is honest and doesn't have an agenda. Case in point is the recent Global Warming scandals. And so long as the concept of the special nature of the human race in relation to the other creatures on the planet. I believe one of the primary lessons which we must learn from Beresheit is that man is made in Hashems image. That mankind has a special soul which is unique to man, and our speech is a way of conveying parts of our soul. It is important that Hashem created the world with the power of speech. It was the ten utterances which he created the world with, according to the Wisdom of the Fathers:

Quote
Chapter 4 Mishnah 1: http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/682520/jewish/English-Text.htm
1. The world was created with ten utterances. What does this come to teach us? Certainly, it could have been created with a single utterance. However, this is in order to make the wicked accountable for destroying a world that was created with ten utterances, and to reward the righteous for sustaining a world that was created with ten utterances.

Another important concept is that man and women were created together, and only later separated. We all have both a masculine and feminine aspect to our souls, and we always yearn to re-unite with our other half. This is the root idea of soul mate... Which Torah calls Chava a helpmate to be opposite Adam.

« Last Edit: October 13, 2010, 10:54:38 PM by muman613 »
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline edu

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Re: comparing the bible creation to evolution timeline
« Reply #92 on: October 14, 2010, 01:08:48 AM »
http://creationconcepts.org/resources/RECEDING.pdf
For Purely scientific reasons the above link describes why the moon could not have come into existence under current scientific knowledge at the time when evolutionists say the earth was created about 4.6 billion years ago.
The above article however, supports the idea that evolutionists are totally wrong and the world is only about 6000 years old (a possibility if you contend that G-d created the universe old).
However, theistic evolutionists can use the data in the above link as an example to explain why the moon is said to be created on the 4th day and not on the first day. Where days represent many millions of years.

Offline Dr. Dan

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Re: comparing the bible creation to evolution timeline
« Reply #93 on: October 14, 2010, 05:07:23 AM »
Without taking sides on this debate one thing I notice is that during frustrating times name calling and belittling ensues.

And we need you guys to keep an open mind of differing opinions. The rabbis had differing opinions but still resolved their issues by agreeing to disagree with both camps being right.

We need to acknowledge each other with respect and If you disagree you simply say you disagree. Or better yet say "i see your point but I think on the other hand......"
If someone says something bad about you, say something nice about them. That way, both of you would be lying.

In your heart you know WE are right and in your guts you know THEY are nuts!

"Science without religion is lame; Religion without science is blind."  - Albert Einstein

Offline Rubystars

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Re: comparing the bible creation to evolution timeline
« Reply #94 on: October 14, 2010, 06:38:50 AM »
http://creationconcepts.org/resources/RECEDING.pdf
For Purely scientific reasons the above link describes why the moon could not have come into existence under current scientific knowledge at the time when evolutionists say the earth was created about 4.6 billion years ago.
The above article however, supports the idea that evolutionists are totally wrong and the world is only about 6000 years old (a possibility if you contend that G-d created the universe old).
However, theistic evolutionists can use the data in the above link as an example to explain why the moon is said to be created on the 4th day and not on the first day. Where days represent many millions of years.

The moon was formed while the solar system was still young (well, relatively speaking). There was a large, planet sized object that smashed into the proto-earth called Theia and this object both combined with the proto-earth and knocked a big chunk off. When everything settled down into stability again, there was the earth and the moon. Also to refute what the page said, the moon is receding from the earth, but it has not always done so at the same rate. When it was closer to the earth, it moved away more slowly.


Offline Dr. Dan

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Re: comparing the bible creation to evolution timeline
« Reply #95 on: October 14, 2010, 07:25:19 AM »


There are a number of theories on when and why. I wouldn't consider this as conclusive. The moon sun and earth have a special relationship that coincide with Jewish months and Jewish holidays that I find the exact positioning to be more than just a coincidence. If evolution was Gd's clever way of making man He must have had a clever way of positioning the earth moon and sun to coincide with our lives perfectly.



:
http://creationconcepts.org/resources/RECEDING.pdf
For Purely scientific reasons the above link describes why the moon could not have come into existence under current scientific knowledge at the time when evolutionists say the earth was created about 4.6 billion years ago.
The above article however, supports the idea that evolutionists are totally wrong and the world is only about 6000 years old (a possibility if you contend that G-d created the universe old).
However, theistic evolutionists can use the data in the above link as an example to explain why the moon is said to be created on the 4th day and not on the first day. Where days represent many millions of years.

The moon was formed while the solar system was still young (well, relatively speaking). There was a large, planet sized object that smashed into the proto-earth called Theia and this object both combined with the proto-earth and knocked a big chunk off. When everything settled down into stability again, there was the earth and the moon. Also to refute what the page said, the moon is receding from the earth, but it has not always done so at the same rate. When it was closer to the earth, it moved away more slowly.


If someone says something bad about you, say something nice about them. That way, both of you would be lying.

In your heart you know WE are right and in your guts you know THEY are nuts!

"Science without religion is lame; Religion without science is blind."  - Albert Einstein

Offline Rubystars

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Re: comparing the bible creation to evolution timeline
« Reply #96 on: October 14, 2010, 08:02:47 AM »
Sorry Muman, I would have responded earlier to this but didn't get a chance to.

the theory cannot account for the development of life from some simple beginning. It simply cannot account for the broad sweep of evolution.

This is a very good explanation of how one-celled living things came together to form multicellular organisms.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/bookshelf/br.fcgi?book=cell&part=A61

Once life is in existence, natural selection will take over. There are some hurdles though, one of them is the formation of multicellular life (not that big of one), and the other is the formation of eucaryotic aka eukaryotic cells.

You can't really directly evolve from a single celled organism to a multicellular organism like most of the plants and animals are today. This required something kind of special, basically there were groups of cells that formed colonies together. Different cells in the groups would become specialized, forming different tissues. This would have happened more than one time. This was something that could evolve into a primitive plant or animal.

There's also a big difference between bacteria cells and the types of cells that make up plants and animals. Bacteria cells are called prokaryotes and plant and animal cells are called eukaryotes. Eukaryotes have a nucleus with a membrane and also mitochondria inside the cell. It's difficult if not impossible for eukaryotes (like plant and animal cells) to directly evolve from prokaryotes (bacteria cells). This also requires something special. Basically at least two different cells had to combine to make this happen. One lived inside the other one in sort of a symbiotic (mutually beneficial) relationship. Eventually this was something that could evolve into the plant and animal cells we know today.
 
Quote
When prominent biologists claim that "evolution is a fact," they are stating a half-truth that means far less than what they would like the public to believe.

It's a fact in the same way that the earth goes around the sun is a fact, and in the same way that gravity holds us on the earth is a fact. It has the scientific evidence in its favor well enough to establish it as scientific fact.

Quote
The theory of evolution -- and it is just that, a theory -- states that the development of life is a purely natural process, driven by known mechanisms.

The idea that living things are made of cells is "just a theory".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cell_theory

Yes, it's just a theory, even though you can take an onion skin and look at the cells under the microscope directly.

Surely in this context, scientific theories have to have a different meaning than what theory means to people in regular conversation. Think about it.

Here's a good explanation:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_theory

 
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But this is simply not true. There is no evidence that life developed, or even could have developed, by a purely natural process.

There's lots of evidence that life diversified due to a natural process.

Quote
However, on both theoretical and experimental grounds, the broad sweep of evolution cannot be based on random mutations. On theoretical grounds, the probability is just too small for random mutations, even with the filtering of natural selections, to lead to a new species.

If you have the patience for lectures, I recommend you watch "Climbing Mount Improbable" on youtube. I don't like his attitude toward religion anymore than anyone else, but I haven't found a better explanation, and this video doesn't have anything anti-religious in it:

If you don't have time to watch the whole thing, watch 4:40 to 8:23. I think it answers your question very, very  well.



Quote
On experimental grounds, there are no known random mutations that have added any genetic information to the organism. This may seem surprising at first, but a list of the best examples of mutations offered by evolutionists shows that each of them loses genetic information rather than gains it.

There are different types of mutations. Some of them add information, some of them reduce it. There are duplications of genetic material that can happen during cell division. These can be subsequently changed through other mutations.

Quote
One of the examples where information is lost is the one often trotted out by evolutionists nowadays in an attempt to convince the public of the truth of evolution. That is the evolution of bacterial resistance to antibiotics.

That's a great example of observed evolution in the real world!

Quote
It is suggested that although significant evolution cannot occur by random mutations, it could occur by non-random mutations. Non-random here means that the environment itself influences what mutations can occur. There is extensive evidence for evolution by non-random mutations -- evidence that spans life forms from bacteria through vertebrates.

The only thing close to this I  have heard of was the idea that the rate of evolution can speed up if there's a greater environmental pressure.

Offline Rubystars

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Re: comparing the bible creation to evolution timeline
« Reply #97 on: October 14, 2010, 08:05:06 AM »
There are a number of theories on when and why. I wouldn't consider this as conclusive. The moon sun and earth have a special relationship that coincide with Jewish months and Jewish holidays that I find the exact positioning to be more than just a coincidence. If evolution was Gd's clever way of making man He must have had a clever way of positioning the earth moon and sun to coincide with our lives perfectly.

I think God guided everything to be how it is. I believe God created it all using these processes. So of course, the position of the sun and moon in relation to the earth has great significance considering that God caused them to be that way.

I don't talk about God a lot when I'm talking about science even though I hold a belief that God was always in control.

The early solar system had a lot of mini-planets colliding about, which eventually formed the planets we know now.

Offline Debbie Shafer

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Re: comparing the bible creation to evolution timeline
« Reply #98 on: October 14, 2010, 02:41:19 PM »
I don't believe in Evolution.  God made man in the immage of himself, we did not evolve from monkeys.

Offline Yaakov Mendel

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Re: comparing the bible creation to evolution timeline
« Reply #99 on: October 14, 2010, 02:51:21 PM »
I don't believe in Evolution.  G-d made man in the immage of himself, we did not evolve from monkeys.

I also have difficulty in accepting this theory but, hey, when I look at Michelle Obama...