Author Topic: Is a righteous gentile saved?  (Read 32220 times)

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Offline Rev_Matthew

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Re: Is a righteous gentile saved?
« Reply #25 on: June 14, 2007, 01:03:45 AM »
Ahhhh
But as one of my friends from Israel says, Jesus was as Jewish as one can get.

The Idea of "being saved" came from the time of the apostles
of course they came from the words of Jesus himself, and were expanded upon.
but it was well after the time of Jesus and it was also within the roman empire, where the idea of being saved came from the Greeks.
The Word "Christ" Means THE ANOINTED ONE, which until that time was clearly only used in the east and as far west as Rome, But it's original place came from Tibet, India, and Greece.
The Idea of reincarnation of course was and idea that went as far back as the Sumarians and the Egyptian Coptics, which explains why they took to the Christian idea so quickly.
But back to the subject at hand.
The following of the ten commandments is part of the Christian ideal also....Jesus clearly spoke of the ten commandments, He said to follow the commandments, but to follow one above all.
To Love god with all your heart and soul, and To love your nabhor as you would love your self.
If this isn't a Hebrew thought, i don't know what is.
He's saying make your life a mitzvah (if that's spelled correctly) essentially he's saying, be a mench. (more possible misspelling).
Getting back to the topic, (lol) even Jesus was clear that a good person would go to heaven, it's just that allot of Hard core Christians sight the sentence "None will come to the father but through me" which Jesus said....at the same time Jesus was a Jew, therefore he followed the laws of moses, and they are clear in that a good man who follows the laws of Noah will see heaven.

It's a very touchy subject for some.
But I think if God made me in his image, then he should have compassion for a good man who may have made mistakes but was not perfect.............after all, we're not gods.

Sorry for straying off the subject.
Such is the long winded Deacon (lol)
Love and Light all

P.S. Please pardon the misspelling

Offline SanDiegoShana

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Re: Is a righteous gentile saved?
« Reply #26 on: June 14, 2007, 01:48:12 AM »
I like your answer. 

Offline jdl4ever

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Re: Is a righteous gentile saved?
« Reply #27 on: June 14, 2007, 02:02:31 AM »
Rev Mathiew, the 7 noahide laws are different than the Ten Commandments in the Bible, so I guess we have a difference of opinion. 
"Enough weeping and wailing; and the following of leaders & rabbis who are pygmies of little faith & less understanding."
"I believe very much in a nation beating their swords into plowshears but when my enemy has a sword I don't want a plowshear"
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ftf

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Re: Is a righteous gentile saved?
« Reply #28 on: June 14, 2007, 06:28:37 AM »
yes judaism does not believe in a christian hell in which the devil whips you we believe that u just have to learn what you did wrong in your lifetime.it shows the sinner how much of a righteous person he couldve been and were hee went wrong. the sinner will hopefully learn from what he did and accepet his punishment from G-d
"christian hell in which the devil whips you", where do you get this idea from, as a christian ultimately I think of hell as being seperation from God, total seperation from God, that's "all" it is. The devil doesn't whip you or anything.

Offline mord

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Re: Is a righteous gentile saved?
« Reply #29 on: June 14, 2007, 07:57:18 AM »
yes judaism does not believe in a christian hell in which the devil whips you we believe that u just have to learn what you did wrong in your lifetime.it shows the sinner how much of a righteous person he couldve been and were hee went wrong. the sinner will hopefully learn from what he did and accepet his punishment from G-d
"christian hell in which the devil whips you", where do you get this idea from, as a christian ultimately I think of hell as being seperation from G-d, total seperation from G-d, that's "all" it is. The devil doesn't whip you or anything.
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
Thy destroyers and they that make thee waste shall go forth of thee.  Isaiah 49:17

 
Shot at 2010-01-03

Offline SanDiegoShana

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Re: Is a righteous gentile saved?
« Reply #30 on: June 18, 2007, 01:18:22 AM »
Newman, where do you find the expansion of the Noah laws to 88?

Offline SanDiegoShana

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Re: Is a righteous gentile saved?
« Reply #31 on: June 18, 2007, 01:44:41 AM »
haha

I am not in a panic, just wondering what book the 88 laws are in.  I bless Israel, so I am blessed!


Offline kahaneloyalist

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Re: Is a righteous gentile saved?
« Reply #32 on: June 18, 2007, 09:48:29 AM »
haha

I am not in a panic, just wondering what book the 88 laws are in.  I bless Israel, so I am blessed!



Its not exactly 88 laws, but the original 7 are very general the 88 are really just the specifics of each law
"For it is through the mercy of fools that all Justice is lost"
Ramban

Offline Shlomo

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Re: Is a righteous gentile saved?
« Reply #33 on: June 18, 2007, 11:20:57 AM »
That's right. 10 commandments (groups) become 613 individual laws.
7 noachide commandments become 88. Interesting to note that 88 is approximately 1/7 of 613.

Wow... very interesting! I wonder if there's any commentary on that? Interesting find, newman. Amazing.
"In the final analysis, for the believer there are no questions, and for the non-believer there are no answers." -Chofetz Chaim

Offline SanDiegoShana

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Re: Is a righteous gentile saved?
« Reply #34 on: June 18, 2007, 11:21:58 AM »
Newman, my old office-mate/co-counsel used to tell me I knew more about Judaism than did half the people in his Synagogue.   ;D
I can even sing the Shema.   

newman

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Re: Is a righteous gentile saved?
« Reply #35 on: June 18, 2007, 11:27:18 AM »
Newman, my old office-mate/co-counsel used to tell me I knew more about Judaism than did half the people in his Synagogue.   ;D
I can even sing the Shema.   

It happens alot these days. I have a few secular jewish friends and anything they know about Judaism they learned from me!

How screwed up is it when jews are cooking bacon on saturday morning and a gentile(me) shakes his head in disgust and says "averah......shabbat!" >:(

Offline Lubab

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Re: Is a righteous gentile saved?
« Reply #36 on: June 20, 2007, 06:42:31 PM »
A related question I have as a Christian- I often wonder if G-d had one requirement for Gentiles in the book of Moses, why a different set of rules now, if G-d is unchanging, as we believe He is....are any of the promises to Abraham promises to the Gentiles?  What about the law to tithe and the promises to fill the barns, applicable to Gentiles? 

In Judaism the requirements of the Bible for gentiles are every bit as in effect and unchanged as they were when they were given.

Someone already mentioned to you about a promise to Abraham applicable to the gentiles. I would just add that gentiles are assured great reward for their good deeds and this especially includes giving to charity.
"It is not upon you to finish the work, nor are you free to desist from it." Rabbi Tarfon, Pirkei Avot.

Offline kahaneloyalist

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Re: Is a righteous gentile saved?
« Reply #37 on: June 20, 2007, 06:53:13 PM »
A related question I have as a Christian- I often wonder if G-d had one requirement for Gentiles in the book of Moses, why a different set of rules now, if G-d is unchanging, as we believe He is....are any of the promises to Abraham promises to the Gentiles?  What about the law to tithe and the promises to fill the barns, applicable to Gentiles? 
Hashem has no requirments upon the Goyim in the Torah, that is only for the Jews.

No you have no share in the promises made to Avraham, again only for the Jewish people.

No tithes dont apply to you
"For it is through the mercy of fools that all Justice is lost"
Ramban

newman

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Re: Is a righteous gentile saved?
« Reply #38 on: June 20, 2007, 08:38:49 PM »
A related question I have as a Christian- I often wonder if G-d had one requirement for Gentiles in the book of Moses, why a different set of rules now, if G-d is unchanging, as we believe He is....are any of the promises to Abraham promises to the Gentiles?  What about the law to tithe and the promises to fill the barns, applicable to Gentiles? 
Hashem has no requirments upon the Goyim in the Torah, that is only for the Jews.

No you have no share in the promises made to Avraham, again only for the Jewish people.

No tithes dont apply to you

The promise to Avrom included a promise to bless "those " who bless his seed and curse "those" who curse them. "Those" has to refur to gentiles as there are only three parties here. So gentiles are included as far as that bit is concerned, but talmudic law does NOT apply, only the 7 laws of Noach .

Offline Lubab

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Re: Is a righteous gentile saved?
« Reply #39 on: June 20, 2007, 09:12:48 PM »
A related question I have as a Christian- I often wonder if G-d had one requirement for Gentiles in the book of Moses, why a different set of rules now, if G-d is unchanging, as we believe He is....are any of the promises to Abraham promises to the Gentiles?  What about the law to tithe and the promises to fill the barns, applicable to Gentiles? 
Hashem has no requirments upon the Goyim in the Torah, that is only for the Jews.

No you have no share in the promises made to Avraham, again only for the Jewish people.

No tithes dont apply to you

Kahaneloyalist,

I'm a little surprised by your comments here. Of course there are requirement for gentiles in the Torah! All of the Noachide laws are sourced there, taken mainly from the early parts of Bereishit (Genesis).


Did you have a bad experience with a gentile today?  ;D
"It is not upon you to finish the work, nor are you free to desist from it." Rabbi Tarfon, Pirkei Avot.

Offline kahaneloyalist

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Re: Is a righteous gentile saved?
« Reply #40 on: June 21, 2007, 12:26:03 AM »
A related question I have as a Christian- I often wonder if G-d had one requirement for Gentiles in the book of Moses, why a different set of rules now, if G-d is unchanging, as we believe He is....are any of the promises to Abraham promises to the Gentiles?  What about the law to tithe and the promises to fill the barns, applicable to Gentiles? 
Hashem has no requirments upon the Goyim in the Torah, that is only for the Jews.

No you have no share in the promises made to Avraham, again only for the Jewish people.

No tithes dont apply to you

Sorry, you are correct their are parts of the Torah relevant to Goyim.

Kahaneloyalist,

I'm a little surprised by your comments here. Of course there are requirement for gentiles in the Torah! All of the Noachide laws are sourced there, taken mainly from the early parts of Bereishit (Genesis).


Did you have a bad experience with a gentile today?  ;D
"For it is through the mercy of fools that all Justice is lost"
Ramban

Offline Shoshana

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Re: Is a righteous gentile saved?
« Reply #41 on: June 24, 2007, 11:30:59 PM »
Yes.  If you do the 7 laws of Noah then you are righteous.

Exactly.

Offline ScotcH

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Re: Is a righteous gentile saved?
« Reply #42 on: June 25, 2007, 09:42:09 AM »
A righteous gentile sees a necessary correlation between the Old and New Testaments and recognizes Israel as the Holy Land.
SUBMISSION IS DEATH !

Offline Lubab

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Re: Is a righteous gentile saved?
« Reply #43 on: June 25, 2007, 12:28:36 PM »
A righteous gentile sees a necessary correlation between the Old and New Testaments and recognizes Israel as the Holy Land.


Just to clarify. What is quoted above regarding the New Testament is NOT the Jewish-Torah view.

"It is not upon you to finish the work, nor are you free to desist from it." Rabbi Tarfon, Pirkei Avot.

Offline ScotcH

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Re: Is a righteous gentile saved?
« Reply #44 on: June 25, 2007, 12:47:57 PM »
Just to clarify. What is quoted above regarding the New Testament is NOT the Jewish-Torah view.

Well of course, how could the Torah have an opinion on Righteous Gentiles when Judaism was discovered Thousands of Years before the New Testament !!
We are speaking Contemporary Terms Here, NOT Tanach Theology on Righteous Gentiles LOL :laugh: ... which as I just explained would be Rather Impossible ! ;)
SUBMISSION IS DEATH !

Offline Lubab

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Re: Is a righteous gentile saved?
« Reply #45 on: June 25, 2007, 01:37:08 PM »
That is not true. The Torah does have a concept of a rightoeous gentile, and it existed long before the "New Testament" existed.

Noah, for instance was a righteous gentile as there were not Jews yet until Abraham.


"It is not upon you to finish the work, nor are you free to desist from it." Rabbi Tarfon, Pirkei Avot.

Offline ScotcH

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Re: Is a righteous gentile saved?
« Reply #46 on: June 25, 2007, 01:57:19 PM »
These terms did not refer to the Contemporary Righteous Gentiles... Which are popularly seen today as Evangelicals ?  I highly doubt Noah was an Evangelical !! ;)
SUBMISSION IS DEATH !

Offline Shlomo

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Re: Is a righteous gentile saved?
« Reply #47 on: June 25, 2007, 02:27:32 PM »
ScotcH, please be respectful. This is becoming divisive.

Being a righteous gentile has nothing to do with being or not being evangelical. Being a righteous gentile means living by 7 rules:

1 Prohibition against idolatry
2 Prohibition against blasphemy
3 Prohibition against murder
4 Prohibition against theft
5 Prohibition against sexual immorality
6 Prohibition against eating the limb of a living animal
7 Establish courts of justice

If you want more information, it can be found at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_Laws_of_Noah
"In the final analysis, for the believer there are no questions, and for the non-believer there are no answers." -Chofetz Chaim

Offline Shlomo

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Re: Is a righteous gentile saved?
« Reply #48 on: June 25, 2007, 02:52:50 PM »
So therefore I suppose the Ten Commandments are bunch of malarky !!

Someone better tell Neo-Nazi Benedict !

I'm giving you a warning, ScotcH. Please don't try my patience today.

The Ten Commandments were given to the Jewish people (not the gentiles) on Mt. Sinai and are the basis of the 613 commandments we follow in the Torah.
"In the final analysis, for the believer there are no questions, and for the non-believer there are no answers." -Chofetz Chaim

Offline Kananga

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Re: Is a righteous gentile saved?
« Reply #49 on: June 25, 2007, 03:14:35 PM »
Wasn't Moses's wife Zipporah and father-in-law Yitro, both gentiles, also present at Sinai?   ???