Target Neturei Karta

[Rubystars]

This would be within the law -- Natural Law.

And Chaim ben Pesach spent 10 years in jail because he was following the letter of the law, and he is the leader of this organization so don't give me that crap about the JTF and the law.

Maybe you should join the Girl Scouts instead of JTF because you are very law abiding.

Chaim himself has said that JTF is 100% law abiding and that's what we're going by here. If we allow posts that call for illegal activity, the entire forum can be shut down permanently.

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

Just a thought I had- could the nk possibly be agents of the government?

[Left fake JTF]

11 posts and all of them starting trouble TROLL ALERT

Hahaha Hehehe, You mock me, and I am the Troll.

Please don't respond to my posts anymore.  This is my thread, and I didn't invite you to comment so stay out. You disgust me. 

[Left fake JTF]

Chaim himself has said that JTF is 100% law abiding and that's what we're going by here. If we allow posts that call for illegal activity, the entire forum can be shut down permanently.

What illegal activity?  This is an open discussion.  I didn't ask anybody to commit something illegal -- nor did I say that I was going commit something illegal.

All I am saying is what the Torah recommends in such cases.  If that is illegal here then the JTF is a joke in comparison to its forerunner the JDL.

[muman613]

We all condemn NK... Nobody supports them... What is concerning is that you are new here and have posted several inciteful posts...

[Rubystars]

What illegal activity?  This is an open discussion.  I didn't ask anybody to commit something illegal -- nor did I say that I was going commit something illegal.

All I am saying is what the Torah recommends in such cases.  If that is illegal here then the JTF is a joke in comparison to its forerunner the JDL.

The JDL was not a legal organization, the JTF is. I think in the case of speaking about what you described you have to be very careful how you word things.

[Left fake JTF]

Yes he went to jail, which is what he does NOT want to happen with us because we have other goals.  We are not trying to free Soviet Jews, we are trying to build a mass movement.  That does not happen from jail.  You certainly talk tough when it comes to OTHER PEOPLE doing dangerous things.  The only girl scout here is you because you try to convince others to do what you cannot.

Yes he went to jail, which is what he does NOT want to happen with us because we have other goals.  We are not trying to free Soviet Jews, we are trying to build a mass movement.  That does not happen from jail.  You certainly talk tough when it comes to OTHER PEOPLE doing dangerous things.  The only girl scout here is you because you try to convince others to do what you cannot.

What OTHER PEOPLE did I talk about? I asked a simple question to find out if the JTF has taken any actions against Neturei Karta.  You seem to be offended by that.  I don't have a problem with that, but I do have a problem when you interfere with my right of free speech as a member of this forum.  I have as much right as any member of this forum to express my thoughts as long they satisfy the terms and conditions that I agreed to when I joined this forum.

This is my thread.  And if you don't like it who asked you to comment.  You are a troublemaker, and you are placing the blame on me because you don't like my thread.

I'm expressing the Torah viewpoint on this problem, and if this bothers you shouldn't be in a Jewish forum!

[muman613]

What OTHER PEOPLE did I talk about? I asked a simple question to find out if the JTF has taken any actions against Neturei Karta.  You seem to be offended by that.  I don't have a problem with that, but I do have a problem when you interfere with my right of free speech as a member of this forum.  I have as much right as any member of this forum to express my thoughts as long they satisfy the terms and conditions that I agreed to when I joined this forum.

This is my thread.  And if you don't like it who asked you to comment.  You are a troublemaker, and you are placing the blame on me because you don't like my thread.

I'm expressing the Torah viewpoint on this problem, and if this bothers you shouldn't be in a Jewish forum!

Sir,

I don't know who you are but you have a lot of Chutzpah to come here and start lecturing our long time good members of JTF. Maybe you have good intentions but several of those who you are addressing today are moderators and honorable JTF members. You should show a little more respect considering you have made a total of 17 posts to date.

Maybe you should spend some time learning just what JTF is and what it isn't. JTF never intends to be a replacement for JDL. That should be made clear to you from the get go.

While we share your contempt and anger toward NK, we do not share your opinion as to what we should do about it. Although nobody here would weep if something bad happened to NK Rabbis or their followers, do not expect us to openly say that someone should do something to them.

PS: It is not considered a 'right' to be able to post here, it is considered a 'privelege' and many people who have expressed opinions contrary to JTF have been banned.

[Left fake JTF]

We all condemn NK... Nobody supports them... What is concerning is that you are new here and have posted several inciteful posts...

I have posted the Torah viewpoint on this.  If you think that is inciteful than so be it.  I follow the Torah -- not what you or anybody else considers the right course of action.

And because I am new here I have to censor my thoughts?

[muman613]

I have posted the Torah viewpoint on this.  If you think that is inciteful than so be it.  I follow the Torah -- not what you or anybody else considers the right course of action.

And because I am new here I have to censor my thoughts?

No, but you should consider the fact that JTF has several goals and that we must remain on the legal side of things. Posting things which are inciteful out in the open is definately a way to get this forum in hot water.

If you are sincere in your feelings then I believe things will work out. But please be considerate of others input on this. We have had many new members who turn out to be trolls, those who want to paint us in a negative light.

Also you state that you are posting the 'Torah viewpoint'.... Where did you learn this? I agree with you about the 'three oaths' and posted about this a couple of years ago [if you search for it you may find it]... But there are some religious Jews who do believe that, not just the NK.... I know Satmar Chassids who believe that... And I do not hate Satmar.


See this discussion of the three oaths:

http://jtf.org/forum/index.php/topic,53734.0.html

http://www.ou.org/shabbat_shalom/article/masechet_ketubot_111112/

Ketubot 111a-b

Based on passages in Shir ha-Shirim (2:7, 3:5, 8:4), Rabbi Yossi ben Rabbi Hanina understands that there are three oaths that bind the Jewish people in their relationship with the non-Jewish world:

1. That the Jews should not return to the Land of Israel be-homah – "like a wall"

2. That the Jews should not rebel against the nations of the world

3. That the nations of the world should not oppress the Jewish people overmuch.

Rashi interprets the first oath to mean that the Jewish people should not return to Israel by force, all together (in fact, some manuscripts have ka-homah, which would indicate "all together"). The Maharsha argues that it refers to the actual building of a wall – which would indicate a rebellion against the ruling nation. Such building could not be done without the permission of the nations that ruled over the land, as took place with the return of Ezra and Nehemia at the beginning of the Second Temple era.

Based on his reading of the pesukim (=verses) in Shir ha-Shirim, Rabbi Levi believed that each passage implied a double oath. Aside from the three mentioned above, he adds three more:

4. That the end (ketz) should not be revealed

5. That the end should not be pushed off

6. That the secret should not be shared with the non-Jews.

Rashi understands that the fifth oath is a warning that sins and transgressions will delay the Messianic end of days, while the Maharsha suggests that it means that the people should not push off the ends of days in their hearts, but that they should believe that the Messiah will come swiftly.

There are also a wide variety of opinions regarding the secret that cannot be shared with non-Jews. While Rabbenu Tam believes that it is the secret of the Jewish calendar and Rabbi Avraham Ya'akov Neimark in his Eshel Avraham suggests that it refers to the oaths that are under discussion, it may not be connected with a religious issue at all. In a mosaic floor that was found in Ein Gedi, a curse is placed on the person who reveals the secret of the city to non-Jews. It is an apparent reference to a security secret; a way to enter the city.

[Left fake JTF]

Sir,

I don't know who you are but you have a lot of Chutzpah to come here and start lecturing our long time good members of JTF. Maybe you have good intentions but several of those who you are addressing today are moderators and honorable JTF members. You should show a little more respect considering you have made a total of 17 posts to date.

Maybe you should spend some time learning just what JTF is and what it isn't. JTF never intends to be a replacement for JDL. That should be made clear to you from the get go.

While we share your contempt and anger toward NK, we do not share your opinion as to what we should do about it. Although nobody here would weep if something bad happened to NK Rabbis or their followers, do not expect us to openly say that someone should do something to them.

I don't want you or anybody else here to do something about NK.  This was just a discussion if something was done by the JTF against NK because I believed that the JTF has replaced the JDL.

I don't understand the hostility by some of you for opening this discussion.

I thought I was among friends.  I guess I was wrong.  Consider my membership deleted in this fake Jewish activist organization!

[muman613]

I don't want you or anybody else here to do something about NK.  This was just a discussion if something was done by the JTF against NK because I believed that the JTF has replaced the JDL.

I don't understand the hostility by some of you for opening this discussion.

I thought I was among friends.  I guess I was wrong.  Consider my membership deleted in this fake Jewish activist organization!

I don't suggest you quit. My only suggestion is to be more tactful in the way you express yourself. Chaim has discussed this many times. As you are new you may not be aware of this.

I am sorry you feel this way.

[OnceNDone]

This lot epitomises treason with a capital T.... Scum of the earth.

[Rubystars]

You do have to be careful how you word things but that doesn't mean you can't be controversial. You just have to stay legal.

[muman613]

This lot epitomises treason with a capital T.... Scum of the earth.

And we curse them every day, three times a day, in our Amidah prayer. The curse on the informer applies to these traitors to the Jewish people. There is no dogma in Judaism which can justify helping the enemies of the Jewish people. They are lost souls, damned to gehinom for their treachery.

[JTFenthusiast2]

No, open YOUR eyes. They have always put out hateful propaganda.  They have always been worms and always will be.

Meanwhile the Israeli govt destroys the settlements and you think it doesn't matter?

KWRBT,

You are way to cool to be spending your time with someone like this: brand new to the forum and immediately the only behavior he chooses to demonstrate is that which attacks other members.  Yes, to lively to debate, but I smell something else and it isn't girl scout cookies

[JTFenthusiast2]

I've re-read all of this person's posts and I'm very sad to say that this person has an almost signature writing style

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

What OTHER PEOPLE did I talk about? I asked a simple question to find out if the JTF has taken any actions against Neturei Karta.  You seem to be offended by that.  I don't have a problem with that, but I do have a problem when you interfere with my right of free speech as a member of this forum.  I have as much right as any member of this forum to express my thoughts as long they satisfy the terms and conditions that I agreed to when I joined this forum.

This is my thread.  And if you don't like it who asked you to comment.  You are a troublemaker, and you are placing the blame on me because you don't like my thread.

I'm expressing the Torah viewpoint on this problem, and if this bothers you shouldn't be in a Jewish forum!

Explain how I limited anyone's free speech.  

Btw did you know that the law puts limits on free speech?  The 1st amendment is not all-inclusive.  For instance, the classic example they teach everyone in 5th grade social studies class, you can't yell "fire" in a crowded building (if there's not actually a fire).  Similarly you cannot call for violent and illegal acts here.  Its against the law to do so and if you don't like that take it up with your local congressman.

You ask what other people you spoke about.  Isn't i t obvious?  This whole forum.  You asked why JTFers aren't doing JDL style actions and called us girl scouts.  So I told you who the real girl scout is.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

KWRBT,

You are way to cool to be spending your time with someone like this: brand new to the forum and immediately the only behavior he chooses to demonstrate is that which attacks other members.  Yes, to lively to debate, but I smell something else and it isn't girl scout cookies

I certainly hear what you're saying.

[Dr. Dan]

If I could ignore them I wouldn't be making up a thread about them on JTF.

And the fact is that they are enemy #1 for all Jews, and that can not be disputed with their successful hate propaganda against other Jews which results in violence from non-Jews to Jews.

I think it's wisest to pray to Gd for justice against those traitors in this world and in the next.  We are a law abiding organization.

[JTFenthusiast2]

I think it's wisest to pray to Gd for justice against those traitors in this world and in the next.  We are a law abiding organization.

This person's writing and interpersonal style are almost telltale

[Dr. Dan]

And we have a troll here from the gaydl..goodbye Steve fageng