Shalom

[Dan Ben Noah]

Shalom

[muman613]

DBN,

Judaism does not consider the Torah to be a history or a science book. The story of Creation does not have to be taken literally, as has been discussed here many times. I have no problem with questions as to the age of the universe because I have absolute faith that Hashem is, was, and always will be the primary source of all.

I find it frustrating to constantly stand against science. As you know I do not trust science for various reasons, primarily that many scientists are not moral and to perform science without a basic moral background is foolish. But facts are facts, and they can be debated, and they can be analyzed. I think that the human endeavor for knowledge of this world is a noble and even a holy thing.

So basically I think that Judaism should not be considered 'Creationism' because it assumes the philosophy of a non-Jewish source. Judaism will always be pro-science because everything in this world was created by Hashem, and we should learn about his world and use it in a kosher way.

And also, isn't that guy the one who is not a Rabbi but he is seeking to convert people to Judaism? I don't respect that, and what I have heard of him I don't agree with... I don't consider him a 'Kosher' source of Jewish education.

http://www.simpletoremember.com/faqs/Science_and_Judaism.htm

      Are science and Judaism opposed?   (top)

     Judaism has always been pro-science, requiring that current scientific knowledge be factored into Halachic (legal) decisions. Science is ongoing and constantly changing; but, with time, scientific theories are getting closer and closer to Judaism. Thus the Big Bang points to the fact that the world had a beginning, implying that it emerged in a creation[22], the attempt to combine the four forces of matter[23] illustrates the scientists belief that everything is ultimately one unity; Einstein’s theory that matter is energy males it easier to believe in spirituality; while probability allows G-d’s providence and our choice their rightful place.  There are many other examples of this[24].

     There may still be disagreements, but we can wait: science is still on the move and that movement is rapidly in the direction towards Judaism. As science gets closer and closer to Judaism, it will yet reconcile its final differences with the Torah.

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

Dan I would like to ask you to answer this

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

On the opposite side (from what I posted earlier in  this thread)
 

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

The beginning is kinda funny as well.

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

I don't know either way, both ways are compatable with the Torah, but 1 question for the "billions of years"
 What was the purpose of G-D making such a long stretch?
 I did recieve an answer about this, but i'm not convinced. I was told that humans were not the main purpose and reason for creation, that their are higher beings.

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

To alter a Kahanist saying--I understand Richard Dawkins, and Richard Dawkins understands me, but neither one of us understand religious evolutionists.

 LOL, That was good. But his main (or strong) argument at least here (greater details and other things in his book (I read most of it, but forgot what I read), but in the video he makes the point of layers of rock and where the dinosaur follils were found. All in the same layers.

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

As for Yitzhak Amnon, I have seen a Hebrew video once where he was sort of laying the smackdown on one of his atheist audience members for believing the universe came from explosions.

 A lot of what he says is true and good (and I'm the one posting his video's), but also some of the things he says is wrong. You would also agree with me on this as well. For example reincarnation and the proof he brought for it. It was very weak, he shows a video from a Druze kid claiming to be someone else.
 If one believes in it, yes its concincing otherwise one can see the fallacy of the propaganda clip that the Druze made because that is part of their religion and they want the people to believe in it. Soo then they took their clip and put it part of the Torah lecture as a proof, the truth is otherwise.

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

I just came across this (I saw it before in a different R' Amnon Yitzhak video).

2:27:30 those verses are talking about RESSURECTION, and NOT reincarnation. Also that video of the Druzi is probably a fake, its not convincing, the Druze beleive in it, soo they made it. 

 

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

Yes, I agree that Rabbi Amnon Yitzhak has a lot of good things to say but I have also found questionable things about him so I haven't really stepped on his bandwagon even though he does seem to attract the crowds.  For example, he has some questionable beliefs on Zionism from some of the things I've seen, on the other hand he really tore into a Neturei Karta heretic once.  Similarly, I like some of the videos that this Rabbi Asher Meza puts out but not all of them so I would not associate fully with him.

 Basically agreed. One thing on zionism though, I believe he is agains't the same people we are against here and refers to them as the "zionists". You would probably not refer to them as "Zionists", but leftist anti-zionists. Besides the NK, where he crushed him, I also remember him saying that those rich people (I believe in North Tel-Aviv) should invite the Arabs to their places instead of telling and forcing simple Jews to deal with them and give up their land(or something like that). Also he said that the peace plan would not work.
  BUT on the other hand his plan for saving Israel is (partly) correct and partly not. His kiruv and preaching is vital, yes. He does say Israel needs to make Teshuva, BUT we differ with what type of Teshuva. We definitly must make Teshuva in things like Shabbath, Tefillin and the personal Miswoth. BUT we also need to make national Teshuva as well and go back to the Torah in ALL its laws, including the laws of war and the running of the state properly according to Torah law (everyting with time or course). That I beleive he fails to mention and articulate (or even perhaps have in his conscious).

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

Also (from the video)
2:44:00 - Their is no fifth galut. What you brought was from the zohar, not from the Torah. And with this type of talk and belief their can be, but it won't be for 9 months but for muuuuuuch longer, if you allow the arabs do it. They would make another holocaust. That is why this type of talk and belief needs to be dropped. If we fight we will win, if not and make such predictions, then its a self fullfilled prophecy, and it won't last only 9 months.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

To alter a Kahanist saying--I understand Richard Dawkins, and Richard Dawkins understands me, but neither one of us understand religious evolutionists.

That is truly a straw man.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Yes it was.  You argued using that statement that a religious evolutionist is inconsistent or logically untenable.  It's a straw man because you don't allow for evolutionary point of views to be accepted under religion even though "religious evolutionists' as you call them clearly have sources to back up their views and do not reject God.  Your incorrect assumption which I've seen you promote here is that any person who accepts facts of evolutionary process therefore denies God.  That's a straw man.

 I'm not sure that dawkins even allows for the possibility of a religious evolutionist in his writings and singles out his attacks only on religious who oppose science and evolution - that is actually the straw man when he lumps all religious people as making the same argument.  I've never seen him acknowledge that more than 2 "camps" exist on this issue.

[Israel Chai]

FOOLS! What did the greatest scientists, and the first scientists believe? Religion includes mormons, and is like saying air is the enemy of trees. Judaism and Christianity are the reason there is science; understanding what g-d's plan in your life is is the reason why scientific curiosity arose.

LIES ARE THE ENEMY OF SCIENCE, DUHHHHHH!!!! No lie has halted as much beneficial research because it did not support the lie as evolution. No lie creates as much wasted classification, analysis, theorizing, and lives as evolution.

Lies are the enemy of science. Is Torah a lie?

Muman: if creation is a metaphor, the story debatable on every greasy *[duck]'s interpretation, go and work on Saturday, that's a big joke too. If the sabbath is not holy, then nobody should have been killed for not following it, g-d was wrong, his word is evil and Judaism is a farce, and Torah falls apart just as easily. EVERY LETTER MUST BE THE TRUTH OF G-D, or it is all lies, and I've certainly seen enough of those to tell the difference, and appreciate what is right. I don't believe I read that from you, reiterate please, I am surely misunderstanding something... somewhere.

Here's a video by a christian, but get me a rabbi to show all the scientific advancement of the Jewish community, and then explain me why a group of people that by definition have to do with an outright anti-evilution religion create more science than others. How could you love g-d if you won't trust his word? Do you love the truth?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=37aM75LaEDk&feature=youtu.be

You made me do this.

[Ephraim Ben Noach]

Do you have multiple personality’s? Do you sleep?

[Israel Chai]

Do you have multiple personality’s? Do you sleep?

No, and little.

[muman613]

Christianity does believe some strange things (from a Jewish perspective)... And this is one place where Judaism and Christianity appear to differ. There are many things in the Torah which are not intended to be taken literally, and our tradition through the Oral Law passes down from Moses to the Rabbis of the Talmud, and through this we learn that the Torah is not a science book.

The 613 commandments are clearly not debatable, and I do not understand what you are saying concerning whether the Shabbat is Holy or not. As the Jewish view of Creation goes, there were indeed seven stages of creation, and on the Seventh Day Hashem ceased creation and thus created the act of 'rest'. The Oral law explains the various aspects of keeping the laws of Shabbat {Mesechet Shabat of the Talmud}.

If you are interested in the Jewish understanding of creation there are many good sites which have been mentioned in this forum which explain how we can reconcile the story of Bereshit/Genesis with science.

My faith is strong enough that no matter what scientists say which can be used to decrease faith in G-d, I am able to keep in my thoughts that Hashem is the creator of all science, and that at the end of the day no matter what explanation is given Hashem's handiwork will be revealed.

A thousand years are like a day for Hashem, and through looking at the fact that the solar day was not even created until the fourth day I can see that maybe the scale of time changed during those proto-man days.

I think science is a tool to understand the creation.

PS: Nowhere have I said that I believe in EVOLUTION. That is surely against my belief. I do not believe I, or my family, is descended from animals. We share an Animal soul with the animal world, but humans have a special soul which is breathed into us by G-d. This is the Ruach, the spirit, of our souls.

I believe that there was an evolutionary process, and that at the point when Adam and Chava were created that is considered the beginning of 'Creation', day 1 so to speak {we are 5772 years from that time}.

[Zelhar]

It seems to me that Creationism and other such "theories" are false and are based on an unsound axiom that the Universe is 5772 years old.

[Israel Chai]

Christianity does believe some strange things (from a Jewish perspective)... And this is one place where Judaism and Christianity appear to differ. There are many things in the Torah which are not intended to be taken literally, and our tradition through the Oral Law passes down from Moses to the Rabbis of the Talmud, and through this we learn that the Torah is not a science book.

The 613 commandments are clearly not debatable, and I do not understand what you are saying concerning whether the Shabbat is Holy or not. As the Jewish view of Creation goes, there were indeed seven stages of creation, and on the Seventh Day Hashem ceased creation and thus created the act of 'rest'. The Oral law explains the various aspects of keeping the laws of Shabbat {Mesechet Shabat of the Talmud}.

If you are interested in the Jewish understanding of creation there are many good sites which have been mentioned in this forum which explain how we can reconcile the story of Bereshit/Genesis with science.

My faith is strong enough that no matter what scientists say which can be used to decrease faith in G-d, I am able to keep in my thoughts that Hashem is the creator of all science, and that at the end of the day no matter what explanation is given Hashem's handiwork will be revealed.

A thousand years are like a day for Hashem, and through looking at the fact that the solar day was not even created until the fourth day I can see that maybe the scale of time changed during those proto-man days.

I think science is a tool to understand the creation.

PS: Nowhere have I said that I believe in EVOLUTION. That is surely against my belief. I do not believe I, or my family, is descended from animals. We share an Animal soul with the animal world, but humans have a special soul which is breathed into us by G-d. This is the Ruach, the spirit, of our souls.

I believe that there was an evolutionary process, and that at the point when Adam and Chava were created that is considered the beginning of 'Creation', day 1 so to speak {we are 5772 years from that time}.

He rested on the seventh DAY, and therefore we are to do so too. If it was month, that would be a tough month, or age. Torah prooves the earth is round, and floats in nothingness. That certainly made it a science book back then, as well as history, and many other things; its an all around enlightening read.

Good you don't believe in evolution, but the earth being billions of years old is absurd. The amino-acids that form life mutate in radioactivity, and a fraction of that has everything mutating (Always detrimental) to the point of utter uselessness. To counter this, our cells undergo micro-evolution, which is responsible for weather resistance, skin/fur color, and general adaptivity to one's environment. Macro-evolution, e.g. my foot becoming an donkey, is a farce with blue-blood roots coined by Darwin's grandpa, who wanted to prove that rulers had evolved to rule, and should forever.

So what else in Torah is not literal, but just a simple story for everyone to interpret differently?

[muman613]

He rested on the seventh DAY, and therefore we are to do so too. If it was month, that would be a tough month, or age. Torah prooves the earth is round, and floats in nothingness. That certainly made it a science book back then, as well as history, and many other things; its an all around enlightening read.

Good you don't believe in evolution, but the earth being billions of years old is absurd. The amino-acids that form life mutate in radioactivity, and a fraction of that has everything mutating (Always detrimental) to the point of utter uselessness. To counter this, our cells undergo micro-evolution, which is responsible for weather resistance, skin/fur color, and general adaptivity to one's environment. Macro-evolution, e.g. my foot becoming an donkey, is a farce with blue-blood roots coined by Darwin's grandpa, who wanted to prove that rulers had evolved to rule, and should forever.

So what else in Torah is not literal, but just a simple story for everyone to interpret differently?
So what

Study and learn....

[muman613]

http://torah.org/learning/rabbiwein/5767/bamidbar.html

Parshas Bamidbar

A Book of People

The Chumash of Bamidbar is devoted to the narrative of the experiences of the people of Israel during their forty-year sojourn in the desert of Sinai. However, the Torah’s narrative of any event or historical happening is never restricted to dry facts alone. In its nuanced phrasing the Torah comes to reveal to us the human factors and the psychological and spiritual import of these events.

The Torah is not intended to be a history book and to view it as such will only raise problems of text and misunderstanding of message. It is rather the book of humankind, of its achievements and foibles, its grandeur and pettiness, its great capacity to do good and to be evil. Thus the entire narrative here in Bamidbar has to be seen in this light. The Torah is going to tell us the story of people and not just of events.

Therefore the book of Bamidbar is full of character sketches and descriptions of people who by their actions changed the course of Jewish history, not only in the desert of Sinai but for all times as well. Those who complained about the manna, the overriding ambition of Korach, the selfishness and timidity of the ten spies who were sent by Moshe and the contradistinction in attitude with their colleagues, Yehoshua and Calev, the love of the Land of Israel exhibited by the five daughters of Zlafachad, all of these - the analyses of people and their attitudes and motivations - are on display here in this book of Bamidbar. It is therefore no exaggeration to state that the book of Bamidbar ranks with the Chumash Bereshith in describing and teaching us about human beings and their individual but somehow common natures.

I think that this insight into the Chumash Bamidbar explains the often discussed issue of why this Chumash should begin with names of people and of the count of the tribes and the general population of Israel. The Torah, so to speak, is preparing us for the analysis of people and human characteristics that make up the bulk of this book. People have names, are part of a larger society and are distinct individuals. Not to recognize this basic fact of human existence will prevent anyone from having any meaningful understanding of the narrative of Chumash Bamidbar.

The commentators to Chumash point out that some of the tragedies of Chumash Bamidbar were indirectly caused by Moshe’s overoptimistic assessment of human beings and their behavior. The great men named in this week’s parsha – the beginning of the book of Bamidbar – are in the main no longer there at the end of the book. Positions of power take their toll on their holders.

The names therefore are recorded for us as an example of the pitfalls of power and office. By expecting people to be people and not saints and angels, great errors of judgment and policy can be avoided or at least mitigated. The desert was a harsh learning place for the Jewish people. If its lessons were truly absorbed and translated into Jewish individual and public life, then the experience will have proven to be of eternal value.

Shabat shalom.

Rabbi Berel Wein

[muman613]

http://www.torchweb.org/torah_detail.php?id=137

Parshas Shemos (5771)

If We Don't Learn From Our Past -- We're History!

This weekend, we begin reading (again) the Second Book of the Torah, Sefer Shemos (The Book of Exodus). This book continues the narrative of the Children of Israel in Egypt as they are persecuted and enslaved by their Egyptian tormentors. Which makes the Torah sound like it’s essentially a book of Jewish history.

Yet, we know that this is not true. After all, what book of history contains 613 commandments in it? And in many places, the events that are recorded are not even in chronological order. (In the Midrashic sources, this is referred to as the principle of “Ein mukdam u’meuchar baTorah – lit. there is no early and late in the Torah”.)

Yet as much as it is not a history book, the Torah itself ‘commands’ us to learn about our history. As Moses tells the Jewish people in his last will and testament: “Remember the days of old; reflect upon the years of each generation…” (see Deuteronomy 32:7).

Of course, for many today, and especially the youth, history seems to have begun from the day they were born. There is little interest or concern for what happened in the past. (Someone once quipped: “Why should I learn history? ... there’s no future in it!”)

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[muman613]

http://www.torchweb.org/torah_detail.php?id=28
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What Nachmanides is telling us here is a very critical idea that greatly changes the way we approach the study of Genesis - that the Creation narrative and the story of Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden is not as simple as it would have us believe. In fact, it is so shrouded in mystical secrets that it simply cannot be understood from a plain reading of the verses, and would better be left unwritten - even though our belief in Creation is the root of our faith - because it distorts and hides so much more than it reveals. And, as Rashi quotes from Rabbi Yitzchak, the entire purpose of its being written at all is not to explain the traditional Jewish version of cosmology and the origin of the universe, but rather to give legitimacy to the [later] Jewish claim to the Land of Israel in the face of those who would claim that we illegally occupied it.

With this (new) understanding of the Biblical account in Genesis, we are far better equipped to deal with this latest challenge to the Bible from Science - the discovery that the universe seems to have begun with a Big Bang 13.7 billion years ago instead of only 6000 years ago. We can now appreciate that the Torah, when offering up its own version of the Origin of the Universe and of Man, was not pretending to be a book of Science and Cosmology and had no intention of providing an exact play-by-play account of Creation just so we would know how the world started. It only mentioned the Creation story - knowing full well that most of us would distort it without proper mystical teachings to guide us - as a concession to justify and legitimize the Jewish nation's future claim to the land of Israel.

Now we certainly have to deal with the challenges to the Creation story presented above - and to that end I recommend two fascinating essays, one on the Age of the Universe which can be downloaded at http://www.lulu.com/content/86052 and the other on the appearance of prehistoric man long before Adam and Eve were created at aish.com - but it is important to always bear in mind that the Torah is not a Science book or a History book but is first and foremost a Book of Instructions for Living. It is the best-selling Book of all time and it has withstood all the challenges against it from science and elsewhere over the centuries and millennia, and I am supremely confident that it will withstand these modern-day challenges as well.

[Israel Chai]

Study and learn....

Rhetorical question. Now I'll believe that it's the length of time it takes you to powder your butt that was really the day, but first tell me this; why can't it have been right? That book says things that are right and until someone proves them wrong with something else that's right, they are always a good idea to stick with.