Anti-Israel Asher Meza attacks Chabad

[jewishwarrior]

Rabbi Wein is a smart and great man.   He wouldn't say something obviously untrue.    ALL?   ALL???  Not ONE SINGLE LUBAVITCHER doesn't believe it?   That's absurd!        Even if 90% of them believed that, (which I highly doubt), there would still be thousands among those who do not.   

I hope you realize that I can ask Rabbi Wein myself!    You are making a very stupid mistake here.

I was in his shiur when he said it you retard.  You can ask Rabbi Wein himself.  ALL lubavitchers believe their dead Rebbe is moshiach.  And if you know anything about Lubavitchers, you know that Rabbi Wein is telling the truth.

[jewishwarrior]

Judaism does not sanction making up your own religion. 

I explained already the dangers of this concept and what kind of disaster it can lead to.

But it's common sense.   Why would I say "so - and - so is the moshiach" if there is absolutely no evidence that he is, other than the fact that I have a personality cult around so-and-so ?    It's common sense that this is not what Judaism is about.   

Chazak.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

I was in his shiur when he said it you retard.  You can ask Rabbi Wein himself.  ALL lubavitchers believe their dead Rebbe is moshiach.  And if you know anything about Lubavitchers, you know that Rabbi Wein is telling the truth.

Maybe you heard wrong, genius.    ALL ??  EVERY SINGLE CHABADNIK!   That's not even believable, no matter who said it.   Rabbi Wein wouldn't make such a sweeping generalization.       Are you sure you heard correctly?   I am going to check into this bli neder.

[Israel Chai]

I was in his shiur when he said it you retard.  You can ask Rabbi Wein himself.  ALL lubavitchers believe their dead Rebbe is moshiach.  And if you know anything about Lubavitchers, you know that Rabbi Wein is telling the truth.

I have a lubavitch family member. He dosen't believe that. His name is Mikael. So I know that you are telling a lie, or are a retard.

[jewishwarrior]

Maybe you heard wrong, genius.    ALL ??  EVERY SINGLE CHABADNIK!   That's not even believable, no matter who said it.   Rabbi Wein wouldn't make such a sweeping generalization.       Are you sure you heard correctly?   I am going to check into this bli neder.

I didn't "hear wrong."  I will tell you exactly how it went down.  A moron like you protested to Rabbi Wein during a shiur at Ohr Somayach, it was either his Thursday history shiur or his shiur on Meschech Chochma, "But not all Lubavitchers believe the Rebbe is the Messiah."  To which Rabbi Wein replied, "They all believe it."  You can ask him about this himself, or ask any of the 30 kids who were at that shiur.

[jewishwarrior]

LOL.   Then R. David Orlovsky is incorrect if you heard it from him.    Rabbi Soloveitchik was enrolled in University of Berlin.    So was Rabbi Shneerson.   In one of the philosophy classes that Rav J B Soloveitchik took in U of Berlin, Rabbi Shneerson was his classmate. 

There is a common belief among chabadniks that their rebbe was a student in Sorbonne, but this is a misconception and probably was based on an exaggeration to expand his reputation.  (His reputation doesn't need sorbonne, IMO).   Research has shown there is no record of the Lubavitcher rebbe as a student in Sorbonne.     
That doesn't take away from his obvious scholarly prowess, however.

And indeed it is well known that in different times of his life he did not wear a kippa including while in University.

Perhaps you need to ask your rabbi orlofsky where he got his information from.

Don't blame Rabbi Orlofsky shlita.  I may have misremembered what Rabbi Orlofsky said was the name of the University where the Rebbe and Rav Soloveitchik attended a class together.  The rest of the story i remember quite well, which i reported above.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

I didn't "hear wrong."  I will tell you exactly how it went down.  A moron like you protested to

Is there a reason you keep calling me names, child?

[Israel Chai]

Is there a reason you keep calling me names, child?

Fearful viciousness in defending a weak point is common. May also express prior hatred, or false "pride" delusions that he is the greatest and everyone else is a pawn to serve him, and how dare you little pawn speak out of turn when he was supposed to be winning and glorified (I haven't really put a term to that one yet). Ironically, these pride-deluded people are usually the ultimate self-haters, complicating the terming process.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Don't blame Rabbi Orlofsky shlita.  I may have misremembered what Rabbi Orlofsky said was the name of the University where the Rebbe and Rav Soloveitchik attended a class together.  The rest of the story i remember quite well, which i reported above.

So you "misremembered" what r orlofsky said, but you are absolutely sure you didn't misremember what Rabbi wein said.  Ok... 

[jewishwarrior]

So you "misremembered" what r orlofsky said, but you are absolutely sure you didn't misremember what Rabbi wein said.  Ok...

I didn't hear Rabbi Orlofsky's lecture on Chabad in person.  I heard it on the internet, because someone had taped his shiur and uploaded it to the internet.  I was present in the shiur where Rabbi Wein said this.  I am 100% certain he said this.  You can ask him yourself, or the 30 or more kids that were present in the shiur.  As I said countless times before, Rabbi Wein said that all Lubavitchers believe that their deceased Rebbe is moshiach.  I believe Rabbi Wein much more than you or any other apikorus.

[muman613]

I didn't hear Rabbi Orlofsky's lecture on Chabad in person.  I heard it on the internet, because someone had taped his shiur and uploaded it to the internet.  I was present in the shiur where Rabbi Wein said this.  I am 100% certain he said this.  You can ask him yourself, or the 30 or more kids that were present in the shiur.  As I said countless times before, Rabbi Wein said that all Lubavitchers believe that their deceased Rebbe is moshiach.  I believe Rabbi Wein much more than you or any other apikorus.

Lol...

[jewishwarrior]

Lol...

If your Lubavitch yeshivas weren't just smicha factories, and you spent half as much time learning gemara as the even the baalei batim do in the litvishe/yeshivishe velt, you might be able to see what we and our gedolim see when we look at the Lubavitcher Rebbe's writings in "nigleh", i.e. that the man was no lomdan.

He did not have the kind of rigorous, critical precision in learning and the mastery of the lomdishe underpinnings of Shas and poskim that Klal Yisroel expects from its gedolei Torah.

Don't Chazal say that only the eirev rav were involved in the construction and use of the eigel ha-zahav, and yet all of Klal Yisroel was punished for tolerating this abomination in their midst?

Actually, Rav Elya Svei (Rosh Yeshiva of Philadelphia) made exactly this very point in a speech he once gave, using as a "makor" this statement of Chazal about the eirev rav and the eigel ha-zahav.

In the speech, Rav Elya explicitly drew a parallel to what is going on today, and said that all of klal yisroel will be held accountable for what Lubavitch is doing because they are standing by and doing nothing about it.

[Sveta]

My apologies if we already covered this but I just came back.

What else do I think is wrong with Asher Meza:



On a personal note I don't think he is charismatic, I think he yells his points across.

[edu]

I feel uncomfortable with the argument concerning Rabbi Schneerson's ratings as a Torah Scholar, for 2 reasons.
1 In a usual case, the chafetz chaim says, in hilchot lashon hara clal 5, halacha 4, that it is lashon hara, to try to convince people, who think that a particular Rabbi is very smart in Torah, that he  is on a much lesser level.
I know there are exceptions to this rule, but I believe it is better to stick to the main issues.
That we do not believe Rabbi Schneerson is the messiah and certainly we don't believe  that the Rebbe was Divine.
2 The argument that Rabbi so and so, is not a Gadol, (a great Giant in Torah Study) has been used unfairly to attack certain Rabbis that I am connected to ideologically.

[muman613]

My apologies if we already covered this but I just came back.

What else do I think is wrong with Asher Meza:

edit

On a personal note I don't think he is charismatic, I think he yells his points across.

My goodness there are so many videos this guy makes where he says outrageous things.

He says that Gentiles are obligated to keep the Shabbat like a Jew.... I know that the Talmud is against this making this guy an anti-talmudist.

He says that anyone can be a Jew even without conversion and he doesn't believe in the need to spread the Noachide laws to gentiles.

He says that Jews don't have to be zionist, meaning he is against the Jewish state.

Anyway, I don't need to go on about this guy. Im so sorry if anyone has seriously listened to what he says.... I also agree that his presentation sucks..

[muman613]

If your Lubavitch yeshivas weren't just smicha factories, and you spent half as much time learning gemara as the even the baalei batim do in the litvishe/yeshivishe velt, you might be able to see what we and our gedolim see when we look at the Lubavitcher Rebbe's writings in "nigleh", i.e. that the man was no lomdan.

He did not have the kind of rigorous, critical precision in learning and the mastery of the lomdishe underpinnings of Shas and poskim that Klal Yisroel expects from its gedolei Torah.

Don't Chazal say that only the eirev rav were involved in the construction and use of the eigel ha-zahav, and yet all of Klal Yisroel was punished for tolerating this abomination in their midst?

Actually, Rav Elya Svei (Rosh Yeshiva of Philadelphia) made exactly this very point in a speech he once gave, using as a "makor" this statement of Chazal about the eirev rav and the eigel ha-zahav.

In the speech, Rav Elya explicitly drew a parallel to what is going on today, and said that all of klal yisroel will be held accountable for what Lubavitch is doing because they are standing by and doing nothing about it.

So Yeshivish that its almost comical...


PS, just what in your opinion is Chabad doing today which is so sinister? They are not spreading the teaching that Rebbe was Moshiach. It is not what they are teaching at the Chabad Talmud, Rambam, Rashi classes which they offer. Chabad does so much good Torah and mitzvot that it makes some jealous. My recommendation to you and your Yeshiva buddies is to go out and do what the Rabbis do, bring Judaism to the Jewish people.

[jewishwarrior]

I feel uncomfortable with the argument concerning Rabbi Schneerson's ratings as a Torah Scholar, for 2 reasons.
1 In a usual case, the chafetz chaim says, in hilchot lashon hara clal 5, halacha 4, that it is lashon hara, to try to convince people, who think that a particular Rabbi is very smart in Torah, that he  is on a much lesser level.
I know there are exceptions to this rule, but I believe it is better to stick to the main issues.
That we do not believe Rabbi Schneerson is the messiah and certainly we don't believe  that the Rebbe was Divine.
2 The argument that Rabbi so and so, is not a Gadol, (a great Giant in Torah Study) has been used unfairly to attack certain Rabbis that I am connected to ideologically.

Many non-Lubavitchers use Sifrei Torah, Tefillin, and Mezuzos written by Lubavitcher sofrim, which is DEFINITELY a problem according to Rav Elyashiv.  In the collected igros of Rav Shach, Lubavitch wine is classified as "stam yeinam".  It should be noted that Rav Shlomo Miller (the Rosh Kollel of the Lakewood kollel in Toronto) rules against using Keser wine.

Rav Aharon Kahn wouldn't be mesader kiddushin if one of the eidim were a Lubavitcher. Rav Hershel Schachter has stated publicly that he will NOT daven with the Chabad minyan in Tannersville when he spends time there in the summer, and will instead daven be-yechidus if that is the only alternative.

Rav Schachter doesn't have a problem with the shechitah of Lubavitchers (he says the ovdei avodah zarah are a miuta de-miuta) but he rules that those who think the rebbe will be moshiach are posul le-eidus.

Note also the psak from Rav Aharon Feldman, current Rosh Yeshiva of Ner Yisroel, who writes that any "rav" who thinks that the Lubavitcher Rebbe, of all the shochnei ofor, is the one to be expected to be Moshiach is not considered competent in Torah and should not be consulted or listened to for any religious matters.

Rav Feldman writes explicitly that it is improper to attend a shiur or learn Torah in any way from such a man. He also rules that it is forbidden to support them in their activities in any way, and that there is a "sakanah gedolah" in their beliefs.

the lubavitcher rebbe was not a talmid chacham.  in one of his "responsa," he said that bringing a guide dog into shul was permitted because one time a fire arose in the beis hamikdosh in the form of a dog. this kind of "logic" shows that the lubavitcher was no talmid chacham.

[muman613]

Nobody here has suggested that they believe that Rebbe was Moshiach. And I have stated that in my experience with Chabad outreach they have not taught any such ideas. I have personally asked several Chabad Rabbis this very question and all say they do not believe he is Moshiach although when he was alive they thought it was possible he may have been sparks of Moshiach. I have seen the Rebbe talk about the coming of Moshiach, and if he believed he was the Moshiach he clearly would not refer to the future coming of Moshiach. As we do not believe that Moshiach will come back to accomplish his goals.

But the Chassidic Jews, of which I consider myself, believe in the concept of gilgul and that souls are recycled. You may reject this and seek to prove me wrong, but this is an accepted belief in Chassidic thinking and I believe it makes sense to me from sources. I am not going to argue about this aspect now, but according to this belief it is possible that sparks of Moshiach are in every great Jewish leader. This is why I believe  that the great Rabbi Kahane, the Rabbi who sacrificed his life by standing up against the enemies of the Jewish people while certain factions of his own people conspired against him. Rabbi Kahane may have had sparks of Moshiach in him.

Is there anything else you want to talk about besides trying to prove that Chabad is avodah zarah? Or are you just here to try to prove this point?

[edu]

To Jewishwarrior
Not being familiar with the opinions of the Rabbis you quoted about how to relate to Lubavitchers, so for the sake of the argument, let's say you are reporting their views accurately, most of them are not proof at all about how to relate to Rabbi Schneerson.
They are just rulings on how to relate to some (or all) of his followers after Rabbi Schneerson's death.
And for the sake of fairness, I should also point out that during the life time of Rabbi Schneerson, when Rabbi Shach said some very harsh things about the Rebbe, Rabbi Avraham Shapira, head of Mercaz Harav, and former ashkenazi chief rabbi of Israel, came out in defense of the Rebbe and criticized Rabbi Shach for his attack. I also understand that Rabbi Mordechai Eliyahu former, Sephardic Chief Rabbi of Israel, also had close ties to Rabbi Schneerson.

[edu]

At http://www.shmais.com/articles/halacha-of-the-day?start=160 I found the following point

Regarding blind people bringing a seeing eye dog to shul, Rav Moshe Feinstein was of the opinion that it is permissible. Rejecting this viewpoint are the Chelkas Yaakov and the She'arim Mitzuyanim BaHalacha (HaRav Braun).

Now that we see that Rav Moshe Feinstein [who everyone admits was a Torah giant] allowed a seeing eye dog in a synagogue, so maybe you can say that Rabbi Schneerson accepted Rabbi Feinstein's line of reasoning and just added to those that are concerned about dishonoring the shul, we have a precedent, that G-d brought down fire in the shape of a dog in the 2nd Temple, and was willing to accept this slight disgrace to his honor, for the other benefits, that producing the dog shaped fire would provide.
True, you could argue there is a difference between a dog shaped fire and an actual dog. But if you are already going to permit having the dog in the shul anyway for other reasons, maybe the Rebbe felt you could throw in the analogy between the fire shaped dog and a real dog as a "backup" to the ruling.

[edu]

This is the Soncino translation in English to the Talmud tractate Yoma 21b

Five things were reported about the fire of the pile of wood: It was lying like a lion, it was as clear as sunlight, its flame was of solid substance, it devoured wet wood like dry wood, and it caused no smoke to arise from it? — What we said [about the smoke] referred to the wood from outside [of the Sanctuary]
For it has been taught:
And the sons of Aaron the priest shall put fire upon the altar (Vayikra/Leviticus I, 7.) — although the fire comes down from heaven, it is a proper thing to bring fire from outside too.
‘Lying like a lion’. But has it not been taught: R. Hanina, deputy high priest, said: I myself have
seen it and it was lying like a dog? — This is no contradiction: The first statement refers to the first
Temple, the second to the second Temple.

I brought all this as background for the previous post, concerning Rabbi Schneerson's comments on this fire.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

I believe Rabbi Wein much more than you or any other apikorus.

Yes everyone other than you and your rabbis are apikorsim.    .  It sure is a tough life being the only righteous person.  Btw how old were you when you sat in Rabbi Wein's shiur?  In his yeshiva?   So were you 15?   12?  And did it ever cross your mind that he exaggerated to the little children to keep them away from the dangerous chabad?  And perhaps you still haven't grown up since those days.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Rav Schachter doesn't have a problem with the shechitah of Lubavitchers (he says the ovdei avodah zarah are a miuta de-miuta) but he rules that those who think the rebbe will be moshiach are posul le-eidus.

Assuming this is true and you did not mix up your facts again..
So he obviously doesn't think it is ALL of them that think their rebbe is moschiach.  Only those that do are posul le-eidut in his opinion.

Note also the psak from Rav Aharon Feldman, current Rosh Yeshiva of Ner Yisroel, who writes that any "rav" who thinks that the Lubavitcher Rebbe, of all the shochnei ofor, is the one to be expected to be Moshiach is not considered competent in Torah and should not be consulted or listened to for any religious matters.

Rav Feldman writes explicitly that it is improper to attend a shiur or learn Torah in any way from such a man. He also rules that it is forbidden to support them in their activities in any way, and that there is a "sakanah gedolah" in their beliefs.

Again, assuming you have the facts straight on this, it makes perfect sense.  But notice how he limits it to any rabbi who believes that rebbe was messiah.  NOT just any old rabbi who is a chabadnik.  Only belief in rabbi Schneerson as messiah disqualifies the person according to this.

the lubavitcher rebbe was not a talmid chacham.

. That's just an absurd lie.  You refuse to look at the issue objectively and you sling childish insults.

[jewishwarrior]

Assuming this is true and you did not mix up your facts again..
So he obviously doesn't think it is ALL of them that think their rebbe is moschiach.  Only those that do are posul le-eidut in his opinion.

Again, assuming you have the facts straight on this, it makes perfect sense.  But notice how he limits it to any rabbi who believes that rebbe was messiah.  NOT just any old rabbi who is a chabadnik.  Only belief in rabbi Schneerson as messiah disqualifies the person according to this.
. That's just an absurd lie.  You refuse to look at the issue objectively and you sling childish insults.

No chasidus or any other branch of Orthodox Judaism ever considered their rebbe "the essence and self of G-d in a body" except Chabad since the days of Rabbi MM Scheneerson. Even Chabad was a regular acceptable brand of chassidus until the last 50 years (it started having some issues with the previous rebbe, rayatz, but nothing close to the avodah zorah that we find in it today) .

[jewishwarrior]

Nobody here has suggested that they believe that Rebbe was Moshiach. And I have stated that in my experience with Chabad outreach they have not taught any such ideas. I have personally asked several Chabad Rabbis this very question and all say they do not believe he is Moshiach although when he was alive they thought it was possible he may have been sparks of Moshiach. I have seen the Rebbe talk about the coming of Moshiach, and if he believed he was the Moshiach he clearly would not refer to the future coming of Moshiach. As we do not believe that Moshiach will come back to accomplish his goals.

But the Chassidic Jews, of which I consider myself, believe in the concept of gilgul and that souls are recycled. You may reject this and seek to prove me wrong, but this is an accepted belief in Chassidic thinking and I believe it makes sense to me from sources. I am not going to argue about this aspect now, but according to this belief it is possible that sparks of Moshiach are in every great Jewish leader. This is why I believe  that the great Rabbi Kahane, the Rabbi who sacrificed his life by standing up against the enemies of the Jewish people while certain factions of his own people conspired against him. Rabbi Kahane may have had sparks of Moshiach in him.

Is there anything else you want to talk about besides trying to prove that Chabad is avodah zarah? Or are you just here to try to prove this point?

at the Lubavitcher Rebbe's funeral there were shouts of "GET UP! GET UP!", as the coffin was being lowered into the grave. And there were those who were DANCING and SINGING during the funeral about Moshiach's arrival. So even though he had a funeral, it made no difference to these people.

And please note: They are not considering the SOUL of the Rebbe alive, which is normal procedure for souls and nothing unusual. They are considering the Rebbe as ALIVE. As in you and me alive.

The belief that the Lubavitcher Rebbe is alive is not merely a legitimate mistake but an illegitimate unjustifiable baseless concoction out of thin air. Mistaken means the methodology that was used to arrive at the conclusions was legitimate but an error was committed in logic or understanding. Here, they took zero reasoning whatsoever, zero Torah sources, and zero logic and concocted out of thin air the belief that the Rebbe is still alive.

The same people who used to say that the Rebbe is Moshiach because Moshiach has to be a "real living person" and that "every generation has a Moshiach" now find themselves flip flopping and saying whatever is necessary in order to be able to defend their desire, that their Rebbe be King Moshiach no matter what.

Any 14 year old is capable of understanding that Yaakov Avinu Lo Mes has nothing to do with the Lubavitcher Rebbe, and that throughout history, with NO EXCEPTION AT ALL EVEN WITHIN LUBAVITCH, we have said "dead", "yohrtzeit", "petirah", "zatzal", on deceased Tzadikim, not shlita.  This is plain falsehood on Chabad's part.

Those who say the dead Rebbe is a live Moshiach shlita are going off the Derech (or the deep end) just like any other heretical groups. Once you distort the Torah's true beliefs, no matter how few or many of them you distort, you are off the derech.  This Yechi Rebbe Shlita thing is just plain nutso.

G-d didn't say the rebbe is alive, there is no Sefer that says the Rebbe is alive, and - IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH CHASSIDUS. It is just the creation of some people in Lubavitch that are saying the Rebbe is alive. They made up their own belief.

The Yismach Moshe writes in his commentary on tehillim that if you point out a specific person as being Moshiach you are violating the oath that G-d made the Jews swear in Gemora kesuvos 111a not to "push" the Geulah in before its time [rather, we must wait for the proper time], the punishment for which, says the Gemora is that Hashem will allow the Jews to be hunted down and killed as if they were animals in the field!

The rebbe does NOT fulfill the Messianic qualities listed by the rambam, and all the good he did is very wonderful, but that has nothing to do with being Moshiach. And it has certainly has nothing to do with being alive.

Never in history has anyone had their own Chassidim dance and sing at their funeral. Or scream "Get up! " as the coffin was being lowered into the ground. Such obscene bahavior shows how off the deep end these people have gone. These "learned rabbis" once told us when the Rebbe was sick that he will certainly recover.

For sure, they said, and they had 100 "proofs" from the Torah. They were wrong then, and their "proofs" that the rebbe is alive are equally valid as those that they had that said the Rebbe will walk out of the hospital back into 770.