Anti-Israel Asher Meza attacks Chabad

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Dead wrong.  The Chasam Sofer writes that if a Tzaddik finds himself and his flock in danger, he should escape and pray for his flock while he is out of the danger, in which case his efforts will be more effective min hashamayim than had he stayed with them.

Rav Elchanon Wasserman HY"D never abandoned his flock.    He was murdered along with them and died al kiddush Hashem.    You bring empty minded quotes to support your propaganda, but people have brains and can think on their own.  There's more than one way to look at many subjects, and certainly only a fool would look at things the way you do on some of these issues.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

From one of the sites which you appear to have plagiarized:


http://vintagefrumteens.blogspot.com/2007/01/lubavitch-yechi-5.html

You also copied most of that posting from http://vintagefrumteens.blogspot.com/2007/01/lubavitch-reasons-for-strong-opposition.html

At this point I think you are just looking for attention... I think that most people here have formed a negative opinion of you 'jewishwarrior'... You are beating a dead horse at this point..

LOL, he's quoting the pseudoscholar propagandists of "frumteens"    Gold mine of the empty-minded.
Good catch muman.

[muman613]

This guy is just looking for attention. Can someone lock this topic... It is going on, and on, and on... With no real conclusion.

Is this a Machloket LeShem Shamayim? I doubt it...

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

The Satmar Rebbe did not sell out his people, that was the evil zionist Kastner and the rest of his Zionist friends.

lol, you mean the "evil zionist" that saved your rebbe's behind?   

[muman613]

If we are spamming tonight... Let me remind 'jewishwarrior' about the merit of giving proper attribution to sources...

http://www.torah.org/learning/pirkei-avos/chapter6-648b.html

"Torah is greater than priesthood and kingship, for kingship is acquired with 30 qualities, priesthood is acquired with 24, whereas the Torah is acquired with 48 ways. These are: ... (48) saying a statement in the name of the one who said it. For we have learned that anyone who says a statement in the name of the one who said it brings redemption to the world, as the verse says 'And Esther said to the King in the name of Mordechai' (Esther 2:22)."

This week's quality is the final of the 48 Ways. The meaning is that one must properly attribute the teachings he has learned from others. He must cite the correct source of everything he quotes, not taking undue credit for himself. This seems to follow the theme of the previous quality -- "precisely quoting what one has heard." There the focus was more on the content of the quote -- accurately quoting what one has learned from parents and teachers and passing it along to the next generation. Here, however, the stress is on personal humility and intellectual honesty. Besides preserving our tradition, we must be selfless about it, giving credit where it is due -- to our own teachers who selflessly passed the Torah along to us.

The twin themes which emerge are equally critical. Our Torah must be authentic. Yet It must not only be accurate. It must be pristine as well -- free from the selfishness and smallness which so often corrupt the noble efforts of man. In a way the Torah is our own possession, and as we discussed last week, each Jew relates to it in his or her own unique way -- finding his or her own personal fulfillment. Yet at the same time, we see the Torah as our precious and sacred charge, one we must safeguard and preserve to the letter. We must never allow personal preferences or foreign influences to enter our relationship with or understanding of the Torah. Thus, the Sages exhort us to accurately and selflessly study, faithfully maintaining all that was handed to us, so that the Torah in all its purity and sanctity be preserved for all future generations.

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[jewishwarrior]

Rav Elchanon Wasserman HY"D never abandoned his flock.    He was murdered along with them and died al kiddush Hashem.    You bring empty minded quotes to support your propaganda, but people have brains and can think on their own.  There's more than one way to look at many subjects, and certainly only a fool would look at things the way you do on some of these issues.

In vol. 231 of Das Yidishe Tagblat from 9 Tamuz 1939, R. Elchonon Wasserman said the following when asked about the terror methods of the Zionists:

"They (the Zionists) should be considered as persecutors (rodfim) against the Jewish People. It is forbidden to use such methods".

He once said regarding the Zionists in his novella on the Talmud:
"It is known that the Jewish People always suffer from two things:

1) Outsiders, and 2) Insiders with their false messiahs, with whom they promise to return to the Holy Land. Their ultimate end is the giving up of Judaism by thousands of Jews."

On Sunday on the evening of 16th of the Hebrew month of Elul [August 23, 1937],  the rabbinical leaders met to discuss the issue of a “Jewish State.” The meeting was stormy, and it dealt with the issue of the Three Oaths. A great dispute broke out in the session, and Rabbi Wasserman expressed pungent words that shocked his listeners. The following is what he said:

“We must emphasize and declare the position of our holy Torah in order to banish any confusion of ideas. Inasmuch as there are Jews who are Torah-observant who say that a Jewish State would be the “beginning of the Redemption,” we must inform them of the position of our Torah that this is nothing less than the beginning of a new Exile! What do I mean? After all, Jews have been living in Exile for some two thousand years, so how can this be a “beginning” of a new Exile? My intention is to expose the so-called Jewish Communists. An Exile such as this has never existed until today. None of us can even describe such an exile, an Exile under Jews! Only Jews from Russia have a slight sense of this situation, even though the regime there is not a “Jewish” one. One of the great rabbis of this generation recently told me that the term  “beginning of the Redemption” in reference to the Zionist movement makes his hair stand on end!

“However, it could be said that it does bring the Redemption closer. The great Rabbi Eliyahu of Vilna (who lived in the 18th century) stated (see Kol Yerushalayim, 22 Elul 1937) that effect of Jewish suffering is that it brings the Redemption closer, and because the misfortune of a “Jewish State” would bring greater suffering upon us, it could be said that this brings the Redemption closer, as was the case in Egypt, that the oppression of bondage hastened the Redemption.”

In Hapardes (Year 11, Issue 7) Rabbi Pardes describes what he saw at the Convention: “Rabbi Wasserman, Rabbi Kotler, Rabbi Rottenberg from Antwerp, rabbis from Czechoslovakia and Hungary were unanimous in rejecting any proposal for a “Jewish State” on either side of the Jordan River, even if it were established as a religious state because such a regime would be a form of heresy in our faith in the belief in the coming of the Messiah, and especially since this little “Jewish” state would be built on heresy and desecration of the Name of G-d.

[jewishwarrior]

lol, you mean the "evil zionist" that saved your rebbe's behind?

Yes, Kastner was an evil zionist.  Read about it in "Perfidy," by the Zionist Ben Hecht.  He details in that book the infamous trial, where it was proven that Kastner and his fellow Zionists collaborated with the Germans yemach Shm'am to murder 1 million innocent Hungarian Jews.

[muman613]

Now it is clear what the motivations of this guy is... He is a religious anti-zionist coming to teach the religious zionists a lesson or two...

Ha...

I would just like to say that it always amazes me that Jews like this look the great miracle of returning to the land as some kind of punishment. At this time Israel is in the hands of the Jewish people, albeit not the Torah state which most of us here would love to see, but it is a state which has much potential. To me these religious antizionists are like the gang of Korach, or those who complained about the manna. They are never happy with the miracles which Hashem has provided to us. Remember that the Jews in Mitzrayim were not the most righteous Jews, they had fallen to a very low level {49th level of tumah}. The Jews were redeemed not because they merited redemption, but because they could not fall any further without completely dying out in Mitzrayim and Hashem had promised Abraham that his descendants would ultimately leave the oppression of Egypt and inherit the land.

That aspect of the story is forgotten, and the oppression of the Jewish people has lasted 2000 years. People like 'jewishwarrior' here are satisfied being the dhimmi where ever he lives. He is not proud that he is Jewish because he feels ashamed of his people. This is why he attacks Chabad {IMO} because Chabad teaches that ALL JEWS ARE GOOD even if they are not at the highest level now, they all have an incredible potential if only harnessed by Emunnah and Bitachon.

The Jewish people in Israel may desecrate the Shabbat, and they may not care about the Har Habayit... But the arabs are actively destroying our holy sites and we must do something to protect Jerusalem from complete destruction. I support Israel and all zionist endeavors, strengthening the IDF and providing advanced weaponry {or support for development of such weaponry}.

You Rabbis have made their positions known. The religious zionists proceed with the knowledge that Hashem is with us...

[edu]

To Jewishwarrior who said:

nowhere does it say that just because the nations have violated their oath, that the jews may violate theirs.  this is a complete fabrication by the zionists.

Since this is a Kahanist web site, I will translate a bit from chapter 26 of Rabbi Kahane's Ohr Haraayon.

In a practical way, the three oaths are only two for Israel and one for the nations of the world and I suspect that little of those that rely on the words of the Gemara really saw the topic and learned it. Now these are the words of the Gemara, For what are these 3 oaths? One, that Israel should not rise up like a wall {used to block invaders} (Rashi: together, with a mighty hand") and one that the Holy One Blessed be He adjured Israel not to rebel against the nations and one that the Holy One Blessed be He adjured the nations not to subjugate Israel too much and in the Midrash it was stated Shir Hashirim Rabba 2:1{7}: Rabbi Yosi Bar Chanina says: there are two oaths here, one for Israel and one for the nations of the world. He swore to Israel that they would not rebel against the yoke of the kingdoms [Rabbi Yosi Bar Chanina saw the two oaths for Israel in tractate Ketuvot, as if they are one, in a practical way]; and he swore to the kingdoms that they wouldn't make their yoke to hard on Israel. For if they make their yoke to hard upon Israel they cause the end time to come before its time.

Rabbi Kahane, then goes on to say outright that the oaths restraining Israel are dependant upon the oaths restraining the Nations of the World. And he goes on to provide many examples in Biblical history where the Nation of Israel was freed from the oaths restraining them because the other side broke their oath first.
Rabbi Kahane is not the only one to say this idea that the oaths are dependent one on another.
In the writings of the disciple of the Vilna Gaon, Rabbi Yisrael of Shklov (Baal Peat Hashulchan) he explained in one of his letters that he was involved in a settlement movement of the land of Israel, because, the nations of the world had broken their oath and this therefore frees Israel from their oath. See also the 2nd  commentary of the Vilna Gaon, to shir hashirim, where he seems to allude also to this idea (although less explicitly). If this is not enough for you Jewishwarrior I could provide you with more famous rabbis who make this point.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

In vol. 231 of Das Yidishe Tagblat from 9 Tamuz 1939, R. Elchonon Wasserman said the following when asked about the terror methods of the Zionists:

Is this a joke?

Rav Elchanan Wasserman was an antizionist chacham in Europe.   Why would you expect him to have kind things to say about zionists or zionism?    The point here was to stress that even if he made a mistake like that which Rav Teichtal accuses the antizionist rabbis of Europe of making, HE STILL DID THE HONORABLE THING TO DIE WITH HIS FLOCK INSTEAD OF RUNNING AWAY WHILE TELLING THEM TO STAY OR HIDING FROM THEM WHAT THE NAZIS WERE ABOUT TO DO TO THEM- WHICH CANNOT BE SAID FOR YOUR REBBE.

So deal with the point that was made, instead of citing irrelevant quotes.
It takes a very small mind to be so reliant on quote-mining to make a point.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Yes, Kastner was an evil zionist.  Read about it in "Perfidy," by the Zionist Ben Hecht.  He details in that book the infamous trial, where it was proven that Kastner and his fellow Zionists collaborated with the Germans yemach Shm'am to murder 1 million innocent Hungarian Jews.

 

I'm already aware of this.  Kastner was an evil erev rav nazi collaborator.    You keep telling me to read things I already know.   When the details came out, an enraged Israeli Jew killed Kastner.

But he is the one who saved your rebbe.  And he is the reason that satmar communities exist in the world today.   Kind of messed up origins wouldn't you say?    Your rebbe made a deal with such an evil person, and together they hid the truth from the rest of the Hungarian Jews about what the nazis were going to do to them.  Essentially sealing their fate and sending them to their graves.

That being said, although I do not like what was done, I am not judging your rebbe, just stating what happened.   But I am judging you.

[edu]

at http://www.vilnagaon.org/book/teichtal.htm
you will find an article about
Rabbi Yissachar S. Teichtal (H"YD) A Victim of the Holocaust, who Explains Why Hashem Let It Happen
This former, anti-zionist Satmer Hasid, did teshuva during the Holocaust and came to the realization that anti-zionism was one of the primary reasons for the Holocaust. Read the article jewishwarrior.

[jewishwarrior]

To Jewishwarrior who said: Since this is a Kahanist web site, I will translate a bit from chapter 26 of Rabbi Kahane's Ohr Haraayon. Rabbi Kahane, then goes on to say outright that the oaths restraining Israel are dependant upon the oaths restraining the Nations of the World. And he goes on to provide many examples in Biblical history where the Nation of Israel was freed from the oaths restraining them because the other side broke their oath first.
Rabbi Kahane is not the only one to say this idea that the oaths are dependent one on another.
In the writings of the disciple of the Vilna Gaon, Rabbi Yisrael of Shklov (Baal Peat Hashulchan) he explained in one of his letters that he was involved in a settlement movement of the land of Israel, because, the nations of the world had broken their oath and this therefore frees Israel from their oath. See also the 2nd  commentary of the Vilna Gaon, to shir hashirim, where he seems to allude also to this idea (although less explicitly). If this is not enough for you Jewishwarrior I could provide you with more famous rabbis who make this point.

Outright lie.  The GRA in Shir Hashirim states that you can't build the Bais Hamikdash because you violate the Oaths, but he does not say that nothing else does.  On the contrary, this GRA refutes those Zionists who say the Oaths are not binding.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Outright lie.  The GRA in Shir Hashirim states that you can't build the Bais Hamikdash because you violate the Oaths, but he does not say that nothing else does.  On the contrary, this GRA refutes those Zionists who say the Oaths are not binding.

The GRA told his followers to go settle Eretz Yisrael.   Your arguments don't make sense.

[jewishwarrior]

I'm already aware of this.  Kastner was an evil erev rav nazi collaborator.    You keep telling me to read things I already know.   When the details came out, an enraged Israeli Jew killed Kastner.

But he is the one who saved your rebbe.  And he is the reason that satmar communities exist in the world today.   Kind of messed up origins wouldn't you say?    Your rebbe made a deal with such an evil person, and together they hid the truth from the rest of the Hungarian Jews about what the nazis were going to do to them.  Essentially sealing their fate and sending them to their graves.

That being said, although I do not like what was done, I am not judging your rebbe, just stating what happened.   But I am judging you.

The Satmar Rebbe did not hide anything, as he, like all of the rest of the Jews at that time, did not know what was in store for them.  The evil Zionist Kastner and his Zionist henchmen, though, did, and murdered 1 million Hungarian Jews in cold blood.

[jewishwarrior]

To Jewishwarrior who said: Since this is a Kahanist web site, I will translate a bit from chapter 26 of Rabbi Kahane's Ohr Haraayon. Rabbi Kahane, then goes on to say outright that the oaths restraining Israel are dependant upon the oaths restraining the Nations of the World. And he goes on to provide many examples in Biblical history where the Nation of Israel was freed from the oaths restraining them because the other side broke their oath first.
Rabbi Kahane is not the only one to say this idea that the oaths are dependent one on another.
In the writings of the disciple of the Vilna Gaon, Rabbi Yisrael of Shklov (Baal Peat Hashulchan) he explained in one of his letters that he was involved in a settlement movement of the land of Israel, because, the nations of the world had broken their oath and this therefore frees Israel from their oath. See also the 2nd  commentary of the Vilna Gaon, to shir hashirim, where he seems to allude also to this idea (although less explicitly). If this is not enough for you Jewishwarrior I could provide you with more famous rabbis who make this point.

Everything you just said was a lie.  Rav Yisroel of Shklov, of the GRA's Bais HaMedrash, states clearly in his Paas HaShulchan that the Oaths prohibit taking over Eretz Yisroel. The GRA's son, Rabbeionu Avrohom, states clearly that the Geulah does not come about at all at the hands of man, but totally and exclusively by the acts of Hashem. The GRA himself brings the Oaths, stating that they are why it is assur to build the bais hamikdosh nowadays.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

The Satmar Rebbe did not hide anything, as he, like all of the rest of the Jews at that time, did not know what was in store for them.  The evil Zionist Kastner and his Zionist henchmen, though, did, and murdered 1 million Hungarian Jews in cold blood.

If he truly didn't know what was in store, he had no reason to get on the train.   And no reason to make dealings with evil people like Kastner.  You lie to yourself, and you lie to us.     

[jewishwarrior]

The GRA told his followers to go settle Eretz Yisrael.   Your arguments don't make sense.

He did no such thing. 

As the Brisker Rav said, the creation of the State of Israel was the greatest success that the Satan has had since the Egel itself. He added that the State of Israel was a specific punishment for the sins of this generation. In particular, he said that after WWII there was such an eis ratzon in the heavens, that the redemption could have come, had klall yisroel turned to hashem and asked for the real moshiach. Instead, the Jews desired a State to protect them from future holocausts and to give them whatever national identitiy or redemption or independence they felt they were lacking. So instad fo Moshiach, he said, the ais ratzon was poisoned and the State of Israel came instead.

There were frum Jews who worshipped the Egel, and there are frum Jews who are Zionists; there were frum Jews who bowed to the Baal, and who believe in the State of Israel. The Torah view is that Zionism is another in a long line of idolatrous movements that counted among their adherents throngs of frum Jews, including some big talmidei chachamim.

[muman613]

He did no such thing. 

As the Brisker Rav said, the creation of the State of Israel was the greatest success that the Satan has had since the Egel itself. He added that the State of Israel was a specific punishment for the sins of this generation. In particular, he said that after WWII there was such an eis ratzon in the heavens, that the redemption could have come, had klall yisroel turned to hashem and asked for the real moshiach. Instead, the Jews desired a State to protect them from future holocausts and to give them whatever national identitiy or redemption or independence they felt they were lacking. So instad fo Moshiach, he said, the ais ratzon was poisoned and the State of Israel came instead.

There were frum Jews who worshipped the Egel, and there are frum Jews who are Zionists; there were frum Jews who bowed to the Baal, and who believe in the State of Israel. The Torah view is that Zionism is another in a long line of idolatrous movements that counted among their adherents throngs of frum Jews, including some big talmidei chachamim.

The Torah according to your twisted Rabbis thinking.... Good thing you are a minority..


PS: What Navi interpreted these events as you suggest? Did the Brisker Rav consider himself a prophet?

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

He did no such thing. 

They went to Israel.  They spoke about it and wrote about it.  Their descendants live there and attest to this.     Cut-and-paste doesn't help you.

[edu]

quote from http://www.vilnagaon.org/mount/letter4.html#10

Since in the past I heard that members of Neteurei Karta were extolling the virtues of Rabbi Y. Bardaki and his Rabbi and Father in-law was Rabbi Yisrael of Shklov (author of Peat Hashulchan, and one of the founders of the old Yishuv), I will specifically bring from the words of Rabbi Yisrael of Shklov.
    The quote, G-d willing, is from what I found in the book, Geula B'derech Hateva page 9, by the religious historian, Aryeh Morgenstern, and his source is - Yaari, Igrote Eretz Yisrael [the letters of the land of Israel] page 352.
    Now here are the words of Rabbi Yisrael of Shklov: "... Now if he was a bit incensed on account of the sin of his nation, they [the Gentiles] added more than this ... their harsh yoke and the harshness of the subjugation, and they transgressed their oath that G-d our L-rd had administered to them that they should not increase the harshness of the subjugation of Israel so as not to hasten the time of the end..."
    Now also the Rabbi of  Rabbi Yisrael of Shklov, namely, the Vilna Gaon in his second commentary to Shir Hashirim, chapter 2 verse 7 wrote similar to this.

    Now this is a quote of the Vilna Gaon: "Now the matter is as our sages of blessed of memory said, three oaths, the Holy One Blessed Be He adjured, etc. That they should not bring the time of end near by their torture of Israel... and he asks [of the Gentiles] not to force the time of the end until he wants it by virtue of love itself, as stated in the midrash of Bechukotai, it is a parable to a king that swore to throw a giant rock on his son and afterwards regretted it and grinded it into small pieces, [ to throw it ] in order to fulfill his oath. {end of quote}

Now another proof that according to the Vilna Gaon "I adjure you O daughters of Jerusalem" applies to the nations I found in the second commentary of the Vilna Gaon to Shir Hashirim 3:10 "the midst of it, being inlaid with love from the daughters of the Jerusalem - that all the nations are called the daughters of Jerusalem."
    Also Rabbi Shlomo Kluger and Rabbi  Hillel Kolemayer (a disciple of the Chatam Sofer) established that the 3 oaths are like a package deal. That nullification of the oath by the Gentiles also nullifies our oath (see Hatekufa Hagdola of Rabbi Menachem Kasher, page 570, for sources).

    In the book Otzrote Hagra Ubait Midrasho page 62 on the topic of the Temple, the author brought from the book Hagaon Hachasid page 247 "And the Genius Rabbi Chaim of Volozhin said in the name of the Vilna Gaon: "If we will act like the Maapilim and offer up just once on the Temple Mount the Tamid sacrifice, behold that this already will be the redemption:".
    That is to say, that seemingly, either the time of the nullification of the three oaths has already arrived in the matter of the Temple or that at least for the Temple Mount and the offering of sacrifices, the time of the nullification of the oaths has already arrived.

[jewishwarrior]

They went to Israel.  They spoke about it and wrote about it.  Their descendants live there and attest to this.     Cut-and-paste doesn't help you.

The GRA certainly did not hold by mass emigration to Eretz Yisroel , for that would be against the Oaths, which the GRA himself quotes in his Kabbalah as the reason why we do not build a Bais Hamikdash in golus (commnentary to Tikunei Zohar).

So the GRA did apply the Oaths in actual practice, and so would not have recommended anything that would violate them. The GRA instructing his small nunmber of Talmidim to go to EY is not the same as saying everyone in the world has to go there en masse.

[jewishwarrior]

The Torah according to your twisted Rabbis thinking.... Good thing you are a minority..


PS: What Navi interpreted these events as you suggest? Did the Brisker Rav consider himself a prophet?

The Brisker Rav was the one who told Rav Amram Blau that the reason he (the Brisker Rav) would not lay down in front of the buses on Shabbos to protest the Chilul Shabbos is because he holds the Zionists are capable of murder, and they would run him over; the Brisker Rav was the one who said about the establishment of the Medinah: "It is not that they want a Medinah, therefore they have to uproot the Torah - their desire is to uproot the Torah, the purpose of the Medinah is to help them do it."

[jewishwarrior]

The Torah according to your twisted Rabbis thinking.... Good thing you are a minority..


PS: What Navi interpreted these events as you suggest? Did the Brisker Rav consider himself a prophet?

The CHofezt Chaim was one of the greatest opponents of ZIonism. Rav Elchonon, who incidently was the Talmid Muvhak of the CHofetz Chaim, in a letter quotes the Chofezt Chaim as saying "The Zionists are the real Amaleikim."

[jewishwarrior]

The Torah according to your twisted Rabbis thinking.... Good thing you are a minority..


PS: What Navi interpreted these events as you suggest? Did the Brisker Rav consider himself a prophet?

So great was the CHofezt Chaim's opposition to Zionsm, and so well known, that Rav Shach writes that in the Bais Din Shel Maalah, when they ask him why he was against Zionism, he will not need to answer in detail - all he will do, he said, was he will point to the Chofetz Chaim and say "I am agaisnt ZIonsm because he was against it!"