Author Topic: Anti-Israel Asher Meza attacks Chabad  (Read 73635 times)

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Offline jewishwarrior

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Re: Anti-Israel Asher Meza attacks Chabad
« Reply #200 on: July 03, 2012, 03:01:29 AM »
They went to Israel.  They spoke about it and wrote about it.  Their descendants live there and attest to this.     Cut-and-paste doesn't help you.

Zionism itself is avodah zorah, and as Rav ELchonon Wasserman said, "Zionism is idolatry and so religious Zionism is just idolatry coupled with religion"

Offline jewishwarrior

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Re: Anti-Israel Asher Meza attacks Chabad
« Reply #201 on: July 03, 2012, 03:08:25 AM »
quote from http://www.vilnagaon.org/mount/letter4.html#10

Complete lies.  Hatekufah Hegedolah is a known forgery by the infamous forger Menachem Kasher.

Offline edu

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Re: Anti-Israel Asher Meza attacks Chabad
« Reply #202 on: July 03, 2012, 03:14:21 AM »
Quote from Jewishwarrior:
Quote
The GRA certainly did not hold by mass emigration to Eretz Yisroel , for that would be against the Oaths, which the GRA himself quotes in his Kabbalah as the reason why we do not build a Bais Hamikdash in golus (commnentary to Tikunei Zohar).
Not correct!
In Kol Hator, written by a disciple of the Gra (and so affirmed the world's biggest expert on the Gra, Rabbi Yitzchak Shlomo Zilberman, z"l that it is from the Gra) the disciple talks about a conversation that he had with the Gra (Vilna Gaon).
Quote
"I asked my Rabbi, if there was the possibility in a naturalistic way to transfer all of Israel at one time to the land of Israel, how should this be done? Behold there will stand before us, many difficult questions regarding the arrangement of the yishuv. After much investigation into this question, our Rabbi answered us: "If it would be possible to transfer to the land of Israel 600,000 at one time, we must do so immediately, for this number of 600,000 is a powerful and whole force to overcome the S"M in the gates of Jerusalem and then the full redemption will be completed with  the clouds of heaven, in a miraculous way".
For those, who might raise a question, by the standards of the ancients, airplanes are a miracle. Rambam in his Shmoneh Prakim says that one of things that is impossible is a ship of iron that flies in the air. Something that in our times happens all the time.

Offline edu

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Re: Anti-Israel Asher Meza attacks Chabad
« Reply #203 on: July 03, 2012, 03:21:34 AM »
Jewishwarrior
you said
Quote
Complete lies.  Hatekufah Hegedolah is a known forgery by the infamous forger Menachem Kasher.
First of all this lashon hara.
Secondly, the article I quoted brought primary sources, that are not at all dependent on Rabbi Menachem Kasher. Go to a library and check out the primary sources, themselves.
Jewishwarrior, You are also misrepresenting the Chafetz Chaim.
You claim he was an anti-zionist. At the very least he was in favor of religious zionism.

Offline jewishwarrior

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Re: Anti-Israel Asher Meza attacks Chabad
« Reply #204 on: July 03, 2012, 03:27:41 AM »
Quote from Jewishwarrior:Not correct!
In Kol Hator, written by a disciple of the Gra (and so affirmed the world's biggest expert on the Gra, Rabbi Yitzchak Shlomo Zilberman, z"l that it is from the Gra) the disciple talks about a conversation that he had with the Gra (Vilna Gaon). For those, who might raise a question, by the standards of the ancients, airplanes are a miracle. Rambam in his Shmoneh Prakim says that one of things that is impossible is a ship of iron that flies in the air. Something that in our times happens all the time.

The truth is there was no interdependent "deal" between us and the nations - all of the Oaths were made for our sake, not the sake of the nations. There was no mutual agreement, and so no reciprocality. This is the simplest Zionist falsification to dispute, since the Poskim and Gedolim who applied the Oaths throughout history, did so despite the fact that the gentiles violated theirs. The Gemora itself applies the Oaths to the Evil Empire of Bavel, which certainly violated the Oaths.

Those "opinions" are just the Zionists trying to fit a square peg in a round hole. They are proven wrong from the fact that Egypt surely violated the Oath when they tortured and killed us for centuries. Yet the Bnei Efriam were killed in the desert as a punishment for violating the Oath by leaving Egypt before Hashem said to.

The Medrash Aichah says clearly that the Romans violated their Oath, yet the generation of Bar Kochba was punished and Chazal say because they violated the Oaths.

The Maharal writes that even if the Goyim force us with torturous death to violate the Oath, we should rather submit to torturous death than violate them.

And the Gemora itself disproves the idea, since the Gemora says that the reason Chazal commanded us not to go from Bavel to Eretz Yisroel is due to the Oaths, even though Bavel violated their Oath for sure with the atrocities they committed during the Churban (The Shulchan Aruch writes that the Brachah of Vlamalshinim was enacted to praise Hashem for destroying the evil kingdom of Bavel).

The Gemora then asks on R. Zaira, who says that the Oaths only include not taking Eretz Yisroel forcefully, but the Oath not to rebel against the nations is not included. The Gemora could easily have answered that Bavel violated their Oath and therefore our Oath of rebelling against them is null. But the Gemora says no such thing.

R. Avrohom Galanti (Zechus Avos) brings a story of the people of Portugal who wanted to defend themselves against the government by making a rebellion. The government then was making forced Shmad and all sorts of persecutions. They asked the "Shem hameforash" and were told not to do it because it would violate the Oaths.

There is much more, but this is a sample (credit to the Satmar Rebbe ZTL in Vayoel Moshe I:75 for the above sources).

This is not rocket science. It's pretty obvious. Takes no genius or encyclopedic knowledge to understand it. Anyone who learns about the Oaths is immediately confronted with the reality that the Goyim violate theirs but we still cannot violate ours.

It's just plain dishonesty that would make people come up with this.

Shevet Efraim left Egypt in violation of the Oaths. Egypt surely violated their Oath when they tortured Jews for centuries. Yet Ephrain, Chazal say, were all hunted down and killed in the desert for violating their Oath by leaving Egypt early.
The Oaths are brought down l'halachah in Rishonim and Achronim as viable and very real. This, despite the fact that the Goyim have been violating their Oath for thousands of years.
The Rambam in Igeres Taimon warns the Jews not to violate the Oaths, or else. He writes there that the Jews are suffering an evil, persecuting government that commits atrocities and wars against the Jews, and therefore the Jews should watch out not to violate the Oath by rebelling against them. It's clear that even though the Goyim violate their Oath we cannot violate ours.

(Note: Regarding the Reb Shlomo Kluger quoted by Rabbi Aviner, it is an erroneous quote. Rasha”k admits clearly that the Bnei Efriam were punished for violating the Oaths, even though Egypt violated theirs. He only permits breaking the Oath that prevents praying a lot for the Geulah – see Vayoel Moshe Maamar I for an explanation as to the uniquness of the Oath prohibiting prayer.)

It’s a pity nobody told the Rambam about these heteirim – for he warns us in Igeres Tamon not to violate the Oaths.
And it’s a pity nobody told all those other poskim I quoted about these heteirim either – because they all say the Oaths are binding.
And it's an even bigger pity nobody told Hashem about these heteirim – for He killed the Bnei Efriam for violating the Oaths. A pity, for they should not have been killed for no reason according to the Zionists. And He also punished the generation of Bar Kochba for violating these Oaths. Pity.
Can some Zionist please tell G-d to stop punishing people for doing nothing wrong??? And please tell Chazal not to say that people were killed for violating the Oaths when in fact you're allowed to violate them!!
No, it's not rocket science at all.

There is nothing here to discuss since the Torah prohibits us from violating the Oaths, i.e. making a State of Israel - and the Maharal (Netzach Yisroel 24) says it is Yehoreg V'Al Yaavor to do so. So even if Israel would save Jews, it is still prohibited to create.


Offline jewishwarrior

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Re: Anti-Israel Asher Meza attacks Chabad
« Reply #205 on: July 03, 2012, 03:42:34 AM »
What are you talking about... Going back to attacking Chabad... We have said that none of us here believe that Rebbe was Moshiach. I have never heard a Chabad Rabbi teach this... So why do you continue to intimate that this is accepted belief..

The not sleeping in a Sukkah is particularly well-known by Torah leaders as a Chabad violation of Halacha because it is the most public of all the transgressions. Writes Rav Shach zatzal:

"They [Lubavitch] are far from the opinions of our holy Torah. For instance, they currently publicized [for people] to undo a Mitzvah Aseh of sleeping in the Sukkah with a Dvar Torah full of nothingness, nonsense, and ignorance." (Letters, IV:349).

Offline muman613

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Re: Anti-Israel Asher Meza attacks Chabad
« Reply #206 on: July 03, 2012, 03:47:30 AM »
The not sleeping in a Sukkah is particularly well-known by Torah leaders as a Chabad violation of Halacha because it is the most public of all the transgressions. Writes Rav Shach zatzal:

"They [Lubavitch] are far from the opinions of our holy Torah. For instance, they currently publicized [for people] to undo a Mitzvah Aseh of sleeping in the Sukkah with a Dvar Torah full of nothingness, nonsense, and ignorance." (Letters, IV:349).

Well maybe my Chabad Rabbi is special because he doesn't suggest that we violate any minhag which we have from our families. And it is a custom of our family to sleep in the sukkah if possible.

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline jewishwarrior

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Re: Anti-Israel Asher Meza attacks Chabad
« Reply #207 on: July 03, 2012, 03:53:04 AM »

a Satmar guy named Mordechai Moskowitz published a booklet called "The Truth about the Lubavitch Movement in the '80's", which explains why Satmar is against Lubavitch. It's the same basic ideas as above.

satmar was not at all against learning Tanya. The Tanya is quoted numerous times in the Satmar Rebbe's Seforim and used by him frequently in his Drashos. In the biography of the Satmar Rebbe called "Moshian Shel Yisroel" by Shlomo Y. Gelbman (who personally knew the Satmar Rebbe) we have the following (vol. I:p.320):

"So too did the Rebbe ZT"L [learn] the Seforim of Chabad, mentioning often in his Torahs material from the Tanya and the Sidur HaRav...Once , he borrowed from someone the Kuntres Hispalus of the holy rabbi RD"B of Lubavitch ZY"A... the Rebbe spoke with awesome respect for the holy Rebbe Rashab ZY"A, of his amazing holiness and his exceptional wisdom .

... once, a chosid asked the Rebbe why, when he quotes the Rebbe Rashab he uses more titles on him than he usually uses [on others]. The rebbe answered,"The Rashab was a burning fire!" ...

 
when bochurim from the Yeshiva asked him about learning Sifrei Chabad he said ... nowadays we have to be very careful because there are among the Lubavitchers today those who twist the Torah, and we have to be careful not to fall into their trap ... and therefore, you should learn Tanya only as much as other Chassidishe Seforim, and not make a unique project of it."
« Last Edit: July 03, 2012, 04:43:40 AM by jewishwarrior »

Offline edu

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Re: Anti-Israel Asher Meza attacks Chabad
« Reply #208 on: July 03, 2012, 04:01:34 AM »
The Shulchan Aruch does not bring the issue of the 3 oaths as binding halacha.
The Gra felt that the oaths no longer applied and sent his disciples to settle the land of Israel under very dangerous conditions.
All your bla bla bla, Jewishwarrior will not undo the obvious!

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

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Re: Anti-Israel Asher Meza attacks Chabad
« Reply #209 on: July 03, 2012, 10:59:11 AM »
1) The truth is there was no interdependent "deal" between us and the nations - all of the Oaths were made for our sake, not the sake of the nations. There was no mutual agreement, and so no reciprocality. This is the simplest Zionist falsification to dispute, since the Poskim and Gedolim who applied the Oaths throughout history, did so despite the fact that the gentiles violated theirs. The Gemora itself applies the Oaths to the Evil Empire of Bavel, which certainly violated the Oaths.

2) Those "opinions" are just the Zionists trying to fit a square peg in a round hole. They are proven wrong from the fact that Egypt surely violated the Oath when they tortured and killed us for centuries. Yet the Bnei Efriam were killed in the desert as a punishment for violating the Oath by leaving Egypt before Hashem said to.

3) The Medrash Aichah says clearly that the Romans violated their Oath, yet the generation of Bar Kochba was punished and Chazal say because they violated the Oaths.

Shevet Efraim left Egypt in violation of the Oaths. Egypt surely violated their Oath when they tortured Jews for centuries. Yet Ephrain, Chazal say, were all hunted down and killed in the desert for violating their Oath by leaving Egypt early.
The Oaths are brought down l'halachah in Rishonim and Achronim as viable and very real.

 1)The "oaths" you bring were/are Aggadic. they were NEVER binding, but teach a reality that occurred. And had they even been binding they are easily disproved as well. No posek (except perhaps recent satmar brings this up, anywhere).

2) Bnai Ephraim were not killed for leaving Egypt. They were killed because they went to Aza and stole sheep from the Philistines of which they earlier made an oath (Avraham and Avimelech king of the philistines). Because Bnai Ephraim took their sheep by force thus violating the oath made earlier they were punished. By the way this also proves the "3 oaths" not binding and dependent on each other because generation later we see Shimshon fighting against the Philistines, we then see King Shaul and Dawidh Hamelech as well fighting against the philistines althought they made an oath earlier, why? Because they violated it first.

3) The generation of Bar Kochba had all (almost all) of the Hachamim backing Bar Kochba, including the head of the generation Rabbi Akiva and his students (the 12,000 and Rashbi as well). Even though they were not successful after all in the rebellion they show us the way to bring the Geulah and not just sit around and do nothing as your Rebbe suggested. (not even to pray).

 Also the Rambam does not bring down the prohibition in his Halahic work (Mishna Torah) in fact he clearly suggests the opposite with things like a spouse being able to force their partner to go up to Eretz Yisrael and many more examples.
 RambaN brings down to go up to Israel in his Halahic works. etc. etc.
 Bring me 1 Rishon explicitly stating otherwise in any HALAHIC work.
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline Dr. Dan

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Re: Anti-Israel Asher Meza attacks Chabad
« Reply #210 on: July 03, 2012, 11:55:04 AM »
Zionism itself is avodah zorah, and as Rav ELchonon Wasserman said, "Zionism is idolatry and so religious Zionism is just idolatry coupled with religion"

So to have Jewish nation in eretz yisrael as Hashem prescribes in the Torah.  The Torah of moshe rabeinu, yehoshua, David ha melech, rambam as others were practicing avodah Zara for the zionism that is one of the mitzvot we need to follow.

What twisted religion do you belong to? Neutera karta? Yeh, that's not Judaism.
If someone says something bad about you, say something nice about them. That way, both of you would be lying.

In your heart you know WE are right and in your guts you know THEY are nuts!

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Offline Israel Chai

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Re: Anti-Israel Asher Meza attacks Chabad
« Reply #211 on: July 03, 2012, 02:48:37 PM »
"Zionism itself is avodah zorah, and as Rav ELchonon Wasserman said, "Zionism is idolatry and so religious Zionism is just idolatry coupled with religion"" quoted from anti-jewishwarrior

The survival of the Jewish people is idolatry? All the lives lost, all the hard work, and the great spiritual awakening was just a big insult to G-d? You and Wasserman can go f*** yourselves, and when the holocausts and the pogroms start again, stay pure and holy right where you are and die like the fool you militantly struggle to be.
The fear of the L-rd is the beginning of knowledge

Offline Meerkat

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Re: Anti-Israel Asher Meza attacks Chabad
« Reply #212 on: July 03, 2012, 03:52:30 PM »
The Satmar Rebbe did not sell out his people, that was the evil zionist Kastner and the rest of his Zionist friends.


the satmar rebbe boarded the train while selling his own chasidim.

some "jewish warrior" you are. "evil zionist", you sound like a muslim nazi terrorist justifying his attacks.

Offline muman613

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Re: Anti-Israel Asher Meza attacks Chabad
« Reply #213 on: July 03, 2012, 04:20:49 PM »
I knew this kind of thing would arise and posted about the 'three oaths' many times. Here is one occasion I brought it up last year... It was at a time I discussed this with several Rabbis over a Shabbaton...

http://jtf.org/forum/index.php/topic,53734.msg498492.html#msg498492
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Lisa

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Re: Anti-Israel Asher Meza attacks Chabad
« Reply #214 on: July 03, 2012, 07:39:35 PM »
The fact that this so-called Jewish Warrior said the Holocaust was brought on by Zionism is enough to make me want to ban him.  However, to be fair.  I think I'll put him in the Time Out Corner first. 

Offline Sephirath

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Re: Rabbi Asher Meza exposing Chabad
« Reply #215 on: July 03, 2012, 07:55:35 PM »
OMG, What an infidel.

בס''ד

Here this evil heretic openly calls for the destruction of Israel and says that we are forbidden to have a Jewish state:



This is the worst possible treason. Asher Meza שם רשעים ירקב literally makes up his own religion and calls it "Judaism".

The Vilna Gaon?!? The Vilna Gaon told his students to make aliyah at a time when Jews were literally being slaughtered in the land of Israel. The Vilna Gaon was the ultimate Zionist. In fact, many of the early Jewish inhabitants of the Holy Land were his students who risked their lives to fulfill the mitzvah of aliyah which is equal to all the other mitzvot.

Offline Dr. Dan

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Re: Anti-Israel Asher Meza attacks Chabad
« Reply #216 on: July 03, 2012, 08:18:52 PM »
This is a point me, shlomo, abd chaim have raised.  We are debating and look how long this thread is.  Why ban or time out him?  This forum is much more lively
If someone says something bad about you, say something nice about them. That way, both of you would be lying.

In your heart you know WE are right and in your guts you know THEY are nuts!

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Offline IsraelForever

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Re: Anti-Israel Asher Meza attacks Chabad
« Reply #217 on: July 03, 2012, 08:27:06 PM »
This piece of garbage is probably an Arab pretending to be a Jew.  If not, the effect is the same.  In WWII, he would have sided with the Nazis, no doubt.  May he meet a fast death (slow death, better yet!) and his name obliterated from memory! 

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: Anti-Israel Asher Meza attacks Chabad
« Reply #218 on: July 03, 2012, 08:48:13 PM »
Zionism itself is avodah zorah, and as Rav ELchonon Wasserman said, "Zionism is idolatry and so religious Zionism is just idolatry coupled with religion"

How ridiculous.  His close followers/students were nicknamed Perushim.  This is well known.  Their descendants are living and breathing in Jerusalem and other places.  You can go and talk with them.   Remedy your tremendous ignorance.

Offline jewishwarrior

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Re: Anti-Israel Asher Meza attacks Chabad
« Reply #219 on: July 03, 2012, 11:26:03 PM »
Well maybe my Chabad Rabbi is special because he doesn't suggest that we violate any minhag which we have from our families. And it is a custom of our family to sleep in the sukkah if possible.

the problem is that our Gedolim saw, even more than 40 years ago, based on the direction the last Lubavitcher Rebbe was taking his Chasidim, that these Meshichists and Yechiniks would be here. In other words, they saw problems in Lubavitch that they knew would lead to this kind of craziness.

The Brisker Rav ZT"L, after looking at the very first Drasha the Lubavitcher Rebbe gave, stated clearly that from there you can see that Meshichist craziness will come. At the time, people laughed and said "sinas chinam!", but he saw correctly, as we see today.

The Brisker Rav blamed the Rebbe himself for instigating these problems, as well as others. Other Gedolim agreed with him. This is why:

Nobody is questioning the holiness of Chabad Chasidus. The issue here is totally different, namely, the new innovations to and changes in Chasidus that Lubavitch instituted in the past generation that are not part of their own Chabad traditions, nor any traditions in the Jewish religion, Chassidish or not. These innovations and changes are what led to the debacle that we are seeing today, and that is what was predicted by our gedolim a generation ago.

The reason that otherwise reasonable people can have such a slanted perspective on Judaism -- the same religion that everyone else in then world looks at so differently -- is because they were taught a very different picture of what a Rebbe is, what Chasidus is, and what Chabad itself is, than the rest of the world. To people who have been taught this way all their lives, its no big deal if someone says the Rebbe is Moshiach, or perhaps even that the Rebbe is alive.

But the question is, why out of all the Orthodox Jewish groups in the entire world, did this stuff pop out of Chabad? The answer cannot be merely that "Chabad accepts everyone", even people who are off their rocker, which is the answer I have heard more than once, because among the meshichistin are very respected Chabad rabbis, Roshei Yeshivas, and others considered authorities, not weirdos.

Only in Chabad will you find so many Rabbonim espousing ideas that every high school kid can tell you is antithetical to Torah. How can this happen?

The fact that so many educated people ONLY IN CHABAD can honestly think that this is Torah means that there was something seriously wrong with their education. No Chasid, Rabbi, or Rosh Yeshiva in Chabad represents Chabad, but the point is they represent victims of Chabad.

How a mess of such great magnitutde can afflict such a great number of otherwise reasonable and learned people is a question that needs to be addressed. There are two issues here: The Rebbe's own teachings, such as not to sleep in a Sukkah and that a Rebbe is G-d in a body is an issue in itself. The second issue is the damage that the Chabad derech has caused to many of its Chasidim. Part of the damage is Meshichism.

Offline jewishwarrior

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Re: Anti-Israel Asher Meza attacks Chabad
« Reply #220 on: July 03, 2012, 11:30:23 PM »
Well maybe my Chabad Rabbi is special because he doesn't suggest that we violate any minhag which we have from our families. And it is a custom of our family to sleep in the sukkah if possible.


That otherwise learned Rabbonim and Roshei Yeshiva could bleieve with perfect faith something that even a 15 year old can tell you is antithetical to Torah is a tragedy found only in Chabad.

The issues is NOT that people do not sleep in a Sukkah - as you say, many people do not sleep in the Sukkah. Either because it's too cold, or because it's dangerous, or because they will be w/o their wives - all these are legitimate reasons, and probably that's why Lubavitcher Chasidim haven't slept in the Sukkah in Lubavitch. It was cold there.

The problem is, the Lubavitcher Rebbe said that Halachicly all Lubavitcher Chasidim - whether marired or single, warm or cold, safe or unsafe - do not ahve to sleep in the Sukkah, not for any of the above reasons but simply because they are Lubavitcher Chasidim, and "Toras Chabad" brings the spiritual feelings into reality and the pain the Mitteler Rebbe felt by sleeping in the Sukkah needs to be felt by the Chassidim etc. etc.

Meaning, all other Jews in the world, including all other Chasidim, must sleep in the Sukkah. But for Lubavitcher Chasidim, ti si a higher level if they don't! And indeed, they are not obligated to do so.

The problem is not the sleeping in the Sukkah - for that can be due to many reasons (if they apply) - the problem is the idea that there is a NEW exemption from sleepign in the Sukkah - not cuz of cold or danger or being separated form your wife - but simply because you are Chabad. Regardless of anything else.

No Chabad Rebbe ever said such a thing before.

Same thing for Shalosh Seudos. If the Rebbe Rashab wants to change the Minhag Chabad and hold like the poskim that say you can eat fruit, that's not a problem. The problem is the idea that you do not have to wash because imitating your Rebbes (even though the reason for their behavior does not apply to you) changes Halachic requirements.

Same thing with Mezuzah. If the Rebbe Rashab held like that (which we only have on record by unconfirmed reports), thats not a problem. Maybe he had a reaon, or maybe it was simply a mistake - remember - everyone can make a mistake, even the Maharal (see above). But if nobody knows what his reasoning is, and all poskim hold otherwise, then you either say I will follow my Rebbe even though I do not know why, or you will follow what you bleieve to be the truth.

The problem is, the Lubavitcher rebbe doesnt say that. He doesnt say let's follw the Rashab blindly. He doesnt even say the Rashab has anything to do with this halachha. He says to follow "Rishonim" who hold like that. Nobody is quoted, nothing in the footnotes, and nobody has any idea who these Rishonim are. That is clearly an error.

Chasidishe Talmidei Chachamim will not defend this. This has nothing to do with Chasidus. Don;t try to make it look as if these quesitons are about Chasidim or Chasidus. They are not. They are about Chabad and CHabad only. ANd not even Chabad. Only about the last Rebbe, and him only. Every other Rebbe, CHabad or otherwise, have nothing to do with these problems.

Do you honestly believe that all the great Tzadikim who tell us that Chabad is off the Dererch are "misnagdim"? None of them are. They are not opposed to any Chasidus, including Chabad. They only oppose the last Rebbe and his newfangled philosophies.

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

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Re: Anti-Israel Asher Meza attacks Chabad
« Reply #221 on: July 04, 2012, 12:19:16 AM »
http://jtf.org/forum/index.php/topic,62406.0.html

 By the way he is a friend of Meza , and Meza filmed this video.
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline Ephraim Ben Noach

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Re: Anti-Israel Asher Meza attacks Chabad
« Reply #222 on: July 04, 2012, 12:50:09 AM »
the problem is that our Gedolim saw, even more than 40 years ago, based on the direction the last Lubavitcher Rebbe was taking his Chasidim, that these Meshichists and Yechiniks would be here. In other words, they saw problems in Lubavitch that they knew would lead to this kind of craziness.

The Brisker Rav ZT"L, after looking at the very first Drasha the Lubavitcher Rebbe gave, stated clearly that from there you can see that Meshichist craziness will come. At the time, people laughed and said "sinas chinam!", but he saw correctly, as we see today.

The Brisker Rav blamed the Rebbe himself for instigating these problems, as well as others. Other Gedolim agreed with him. This is why:

Nobody is questioning the holiness of Chabad Chasidus. The issue here is totally different, namely, the new innovations to and changes in Chasidus that Lubavitch instituted in the past generation that are not part of their own Chabad traditions, nor any traditions in the Jewish religion, Chassidish or not. These innovations and changes are what led to the debacle that we are seeing today, and that is what was predicted by our gedolim a generation ago.

The reason that otherwise reasonable people can have such a slanted perspective on Judaism -- the same religion that everyone else in then world looks at so differently -- is because they were taught a very different picture of what a Rebbe is, what Chasidus is, and what Chabad itself is, than the rest of the world. To people who have been taught this way all their lives, its no big deal if someone says the Rebbe is Moshiach, or perhaps even that the Rebbe is alive.

But the question is, why out of all the Orthodox Jewish groups in the entire world, did this stuff pop out of Chabad? The answer cannot be merely that "Chabad accepts everyone", even people who are off their rocker, which is the answer I have heard more than once, because among the meshichistin are very respected Chabad rabbis, Roshei Yeshivas, and others considered authorities, not weirdos.

Only in Chabad will you find so many Rabbonim espousing ideas that every high school kid can tell you is antithetical to Torah. How can this happen?

The fact that so many educated people ONLY IN CHABAD can honestly think that this is Torah means that there was something seriously wrong with their education. No Chasid, Rabbi, or Rosh Yeshiva in Chabad represents Chabad, but the point is they represent victims of Chabad.

How a mess of such great magnitutde can afflict such a great number of otherwise reasonable and learned people is a question that needs to be addressed. There are two issues here: The Rebbe's own teachings, such as not to sleep in a Sukkah and that a Rebbe is G-d in a body is an issue in itself. The second issue is the damage that the Chabad derech has caused to many of its Chasidim. Part of the damage is Meshichism.
You know what? I follow Chabad! And it was no Chabad Rebbe that convinced me I was going down the right path! It was from some where you would not understand, beings all you do is attack other good humans! Keep believing your way is the only way!
« Last Edit: July 04, 2012, 01:06:41 AM by Ephraim »
Ezekiel 33:6 But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the horn, and the people be not warned, and the sword do come, and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity, but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand.

Offline muman613

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Re: Anti-Israel Asher Meza attacks Chabad
« Reply #223 on: July 04, 2012, 01:02:42 AM »
Ephraim,

I know where you are coming from. But I think such language is not warranted {although at first I would have responded as you are now}. After all these 1000s of messages it is clear where this guy is coming from. If we let this issue go he will have to move on also. He has virtually copied and pasted all the information concerning the conflict against Chabad. I understand the concern because we should not put faith in a false messiah. This has been a danger for the Jewish people for many millenia.

The fact is that there are some Chabad followers who have put their faith, wrongly, in the Rebbe. By doing so they violate commandments of the Torah. I admit my MO (Modern Orthodox) Rabbi has said he encountered certain Chabad groups who actually insert the Rebbe into the prayerbook {our prayers have been written for 1000 years by the Men of the Great Assembly}. Anyone who is involved in such a Chabad group should speak up {if possible} against it, or leave the congregation.

I just hope that this thread dies down soon and we can move on to important issues. We are not going to suddenly turn anti-zionist because of what this guy is writing. I am strengthened in my learning in the name of Rabbi Kahane by reading this anti-zionist tripe...

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline jewishwarrior

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Re: Anti-Israel Asher Meza attacks Chabad
« Reply #224 on: July 04, 2012, 01:43:51 AM »
Ephraim,

I know where you are coming from. But I think such language is not warranted {although at first I would have responded as you are now}. After all these 1000s of messages it is clear where this guy is coming from. If we let this issue go he will have to move on also. He has virtually copied and pasted all the information concerning the conflict against Chabad. I understand the concern because we should not put faith in a false messiah. This has been a danger for the Jewish people for many millenia.

The fact is that there are some Chabad followers who have put their faith, wrongly, in the Rebbe. By doing so they violate commandments of the Torah. I admit my MO (Modern Orthodox) Rabbi has said he encountered certain Chabad groups who actually insert the Rebbe into the prayerbook {our prayers have been written for 1000 years by the Men of the Great Assembly}. Anyone who is involved in such a Chabad group should speak up {if possible} against it, or leave the congregation.

I just hope that this thread dies down soon and we can move on to important issues. We are not going to suddenly turn anti-zionist because of what this guy is writing. I am strengthened in my learning in the name of Rabbi Kahane by reading this anti-zionist tripe...

The Satmar Rebbe ZT"L would have been a natural ally to Chabad. The vehement anti-Zionism that Satmar espouses is shared by Chabad maybe more than any other Chasidus. In the recently published "Igros Maharit", a letter signed by dozens of Hungraian Rabbonim before the war against Zionism, including Satmar, uses as its main authority the Lubavitcher Rebbe Rashab! All the Hungarian Rabbonim declared that we must follow what the Lubavitcher Rebbe Rashab said!

And the unwillingness to change modes of dress and to shave the beards and to copy the Goyim -- all these are mainstays of Satmar. And Satmar used to get along very well with Chabad, and admired them to no end.

Until they changed. Until they started with their new ideas. Then the Satmar Rebbe ZT"L came out strongly against them.

And Rav Shach. And the Brisker Rav. And Rav Aharon Kotler. And many many more. So here's a question for you: Why should we follow someone who says things like the above? Why should we not reject it as off the derech and distance ourselves from it the way the great Gedolim have told us to?

Why should we ignore what our Tzadikim say? Do you really think the bulk of Torah Jewry is crazy? Or maybe we all have unkosher Tefillin? At the very least, perhaps someone can justify their following a movement that has these terrible anti-Torah beliefs?

Your Rebbe is not alive anymore. You cannot ask him things from beyond the grave by flipping through his writings. This is psycho stuff. It has no source in Torah literature at all, it's pure la la land fantasy, and it's a pity that we have sunken to such a level that people have to be told this.

The only question is, what caused otherwise intelligent and reasonable people to go so bananas in regard to religion? The answer is, this is precisely what the Torah leaders were warning us about, the past 40 years. They told us that the new innovations of Chabad were poison, and many did not believe it. But now we see the casualties of it - and so anybody can now see the extent of the poisonousness that we were warned about, way back when.