Re-opening the closed can of worms

[Muck DeFuslims]

"I too support the preaching of the christian message to Jews, any Christian who doesn't is either not a Christian or has some badly messed up logic going on in their head, we (Christians) believe that Jesus was the Jewish messiah, why then should we (Christians) the vast majority of whom are non-Jewish accept Jesus if we don't think the Jews should, it makes no sense."

This quote came from a moderator of this forum, in a thread that was locked up. It was suggested that the members of this forum wait to hear what Chaim has to say on the matter.

I'm interested in hearing what Chaim has to say, but I don't need to wait for his opinion to tell you mine.

Let me put this bluntly.

I resent Christians that insist on proselytizing Jews.

I am a Jew. I do not and will not accept Jesus as my messiah.

If a Christian insists on trying to convince me Christ was the messiah, then he doesn't want me to remain a Jew.

He wants me to become a Christian.

The proselytizer is certain he's doing the right thing, trying to get me to accept Jesus.

But I'm not going to accept Jesus, and I consider the insistence on trying to convince me to do so as a sign of disrespect to Jews and Judaism.

You have your Christian beliefs, fine with me. Just don't make it your mission, or insist on your right to convince me, as a Jew, to embrace them.

You want to work together for common goals ?  Fantastic.
But we can't work for common goals if you insist on continually trying to convince Jews to abandon Judaism.

That's the bottom line.
     
Quoting this moderator again:

"Any true Christian believes that it is ultimately right for everyone to beome a Christian, and that includes Jews, so you're going to have to kick out all true Christians from your movement if you hold this position, that includes me."

 

If your definition of being a 'true Christian' requires you to think it is 'right' for Jews to become Christians, and that it's your duty to make things 'right', then i can only say goodbye and good riddance.

Hopefully, not all 'true Christians' think the way you do.

[DownwithIslam]

Lets not focus on this. There are so many righteous gentiles who help the jews more than jews themselves.

[TheCoon]

I've always been a believer that someone needs to find Christ on their own through introspection and learning through the Bible. I personally don't see anything wrong with a Jew converting but I'd never ask one to.

Like with all prostletyzers: If you're not interested with their message, tell them "no thank you". If they persist, then we have a problem.

[newman]

"I too support the preaching of the christian message to Jews, any Christian who doesn't is either not a Christian or has some badly messed up logic going on in their head, we (Christians) believe that Jesus was the Jewish messiah, why then should we (Christians) the vast majority of whom are non-Jewish accept Jesus if we don't think the Jews should, it makes no sense."

This quote came from a moderator of this forum, in a thread that was locked up. It was suggested that the members of this forum wait to hear what Chaim has to say on the matter.

I'm interested in hearing what Chaim has to say, but I don't need to wait for his opinion to tell you mine.

Let me put this bluntly.

I resent Christians that insist on proselytizing Jews.

I am a Jew. I do not and will not accept Jesus as my messiah.

If a Christian insists on trying to convince me Christ was the messiah, then he doesn't want me to remain a Jew.

He wants me to become a Christian.

The proselytizer is certain he's doing the right thing, trying to get me to accept Jesus.

But I'm not going to accept Jesus, and I consider the insistence on trying to convince me to do so as a sign of disrespect to Jews and Judaism.

You have your Christian beliefs, fine with me. Just don't make it your mission, or insist on your right to convince me, as a Jew, to embrace them.

You want to work together for common goals ?  Fantastic.
But we can't work for common goals if you insist on continually trying to convince Jews to abandon Judaism.

That's the bottom line.
     
Quoting this moderator again:

"Any true Christian believes that it is ultimately right for everyone to beome a Christian, and that includes Jews, so you're going to have to kick out all true Christians from your movement if you hold this position, that includes me."

 

If your definition of being a 'true Christian' requires you to think it is 'right' for Jews to become Christians, and that it's your duty to make things 'right', then i can only say goodbye and good riddance.

Hopefully, not all 'true Christians' think the way you do.

Damn right, Muck.

Helping the jewish cause doesn't give anyone the right to attempt spiritual murder of jewish people. Rabbi Kahane (ZT'L) himself has said as much.

[DownwithIslam]

People on this forum should not be offended if gentiles want jews to convert. It is natural for them to want this. Only if someone actively tries to convert a jew should we get upset. Lets fight together for common goals.

[Shechinah]

It is spiritual murder even to try and convert gentiles to Christianity.

[Muck DeFuslims]

There are so many righteous gentiles who help the jews more than jews themselves.

You're absolutely correct about this. And for this we should be thankful and grateful.

However, that's not the issue or point of my post.

My point is that a righteous gentile should not continually try to proselytize or convert Jews.

Thunderbolt, thanks for understanding this.

[Ehud]

Here is the bottom line.  How would Christians feel if Jews spent millions of dollars, employed hundreds of thousands of people, and made it one of their campaigns to try to convert Christians to Judaism?  What if Jews went around and made it one of the requirements of Judaism to convince Christians that Christ was NOT the messiah.  Would Christians be OK with this?  If you are a Christian and you would personally be OK with this, then fine, go out and try to convert Jews.  If you are a Christian who would NOT be OK with this, then stop because you are a hypocrite.

[TheCoon]

It is spiritual murder even to try and convert gentiles to Christianity.

Excuse me?

[Ehud]

It is spiritual murder even to try and convert gentiles to Christianity.

Excuse me?

I think he means if the gentiles already have a different faith of their own.  Not if they are complete hedonists.

[DownwithIslam]

I don't understand how people could actually continue these arguments in good faith. I beg of you to stop.

[Shlomo]

I think it's been enough fighting for today. This isn't right. What good does it do? Really. What did any of this arguing against each other get us? I'll tell you... we lost our YouTube coordinator and a good friend. And what for? It's not worth it.

Let's pick up the pieces and have respect for one another. Please stop this. It's so wrong... especially after you can see what it did.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Muck, I feel your pain. What was said by that moderator was highly insensitive and it was more than understood from the get-go that these kinds of statements are not allowed.

[Muck DeFuslims]

I don't understand how people could actually continue these arguments in good faith. I beg of you to stop.

This is not a derisive argument.

This is a respectful discussion of an important issue, amongst friends and allies.
We should be mature adults that can discuss our differences, find common ground, and handle it.

If we can't handle it, we're doomed to failure.

[Shlomo]

You know... I really do understand. How could anyone not be upset in here today? We are all hurt and upset. Let's calm it down and be reasonable. Let's remember what we are in here for. No more of it tonight. Give it a little time. Alright?

[newman]

I don't understand how people could actually continue these arguments in good faith. I beg of you to stop.

This is not a derisive argument.

This is a respectful discussion of an important issue, amongst friends and allies.
We should be mature adults that can discuss our differences, find common ground, and handle it.

If we can't handle it, we're doomed to failure.

People just need to understand rules.

At sunday breakfast I will happily pass the bacon to a gentile who asks. But I will NOT (on pain of death) pass bacon to a jew. I don't care if he wants it or is secular or reform.....he can get it himself. None of us should put a stumbling block before the blind.

[Dominater96]

"I too support the preaching of the christian message to Jews, any Christian who doesn't is either not a Christian or has some badly messed up logic going on in their head, we (Christians) believe that Jesus was the Jewish messiah, why then should we (Christians) the vast majority of whom are non-Jewish accept Jesus if we don't think the Jews should, it makes no sense."

This quote came from a moderator of this forum, in a thread that was locked up. It was suggested that the members of this forum wait to hear what Chaim has to say on the matter.

I'm interested in hearing what Chaim has to say, but I don't need to wait for his opinion to tell you mine.

Let me put this bluntly.

I resent Christians that insist on proselytizing Jews.

I am a Jew. I do not and will not accept Jesus as my messiah.

If a Christian insists on trying to convince me Christ was the messiah, then he doesn't want me to remain a Jew.

He wants me to become a Christian.

The proselytizer is certain he's doing the right thing, trying to get me to accept Jesus.

But I'm not going to accept Jesus, and I consider the insistence on trying to convince me to do so as a sign of disrespect to Jews and Judaism.

You have your Christian beliefs, fine with me. Just don't make it your mission, or insist on your right to convince me, as a Jew, to embrace them.

You want to work together for common goals ?  Fantastic.
But we can't work for common goals if you insist on continually trying to convince Jews to abandon Judaism.

That's the bottom line.
     
Quoting this moderator again:

"Any true Christian believes that it is ultimately right for everyone to beome a Christian, and that includes Jews, so you're going to have to kick out all true Christians from your movement if you hold this position, that includes me."

 

If your definition of being a 'true Christian' requires you to think it is 'right' for Jews to become Christians, and that it's your duty to make things 'right', then i can only say goodbye and good riddance.

Hopefully, not all 'true Christians' think the way you do.

Well said Muck. I know some JDL members who would beat any1 who said that up. IN the 90's christians would try and fool Russian immigrants into coming to a pesach "seder", thiking that it was a jewish seder, and converting them to Christianity. SOme Great Jews took care of those missionaries.

[newman]

I agree with you 100%, Dom' but let's not start this up again. It's been going on for hours and I don't want the forum to lose it's genuine, non-proselytising christian friends in a misunderstanding. I'm not fussed about one or two non-genuine ones though.

[Lisa]

OK folks,  Jeffguy is right.  This is really not worth any more arguing. 

[Dr. Dan]

People on this forum should not be offended if gentiles want jews to convert. It is natural for them to want this. Only if someone actively tries to convert a jew should we get upset. Lets fight together for common goals.

this is one of the rare instances that I agree with DownwithIslam .

in the case of the moderator..I vehemently disagree with his theology. However, he does it out of love because he genuinely cares according to his theology.  Just chaim cares about left wing self hating Jews that he has to rebuke them every chance that he has.

Nevertheless, time has passed. It is what it is. If this moderator comes back, I personally will embrace him with open arms.

[Dr. Dan]

I think it's been enough fighting for today. This isn't right. What good does it do? Really. What did any of this arguing against each other get us? I'll tell you... we lost our YouTube coordinator and a good friend. And what for? It's not worth it.

Let's pick up the pieces and have respect for one another. Please stop this. It's so wrong... especially after you can see what it did.

I think these discussions are ok as long as everybody receives each other with respect and an open heart.  Unfortuantley there are people on this form that get offended too easily...For anyone that is this way, you have to chill out..I know jtf is a tense hard line group, but just chill...nothing wrong with people who disagree wtih you.

These discussions will allow us to understand each other better for the future...we should learn to agree to disagree and have fun with it. It makes all better people...

For that reason I open my arms to reasonable people that I disagree wtih and disagree with me. Opinions are not facts..they are just opinions.  This kind of open-mindedness is good practice for our group to be considered legitimate by the mainstream.

When we, Jews, disagree with our Christian brethren and vice versa, we shoudl always remember to say wtih curtesy, "i'm sorry, but respectfully, I have to disagree with you.."  this is what friends and allies should do.

I think not allowing us to respectfully discuss our differences "for a better cause" is a mistake. But the key word is "respectfully". 

[Lisa]

Good points Danny.  Now I'm locking this thread.