Yimach shemo to The Current Israeli Government!

[muman613]

KWRBT,

It seems that you introduced Chaims opinion into this discussion, not Mo.

Can you see what Mo is trying to say here? I can see... I don't agree that Israel can't disobey Americas wishes and I hope that someday soon we see Israel standing up for what is right. But it indeed is a problem which causes Israel a lot of headaches {accepting this aide money}.

[The One and Only Mo]

So in other words you buy into the facade that Big Bad America and Big Brother Obama will whip bibi with a stick and "do something" to Israel if bibi does something about the arabs.     And that these consequences are so bad that we should never dare confront such a scenario.

I believe that's a crock and the ones who promote that lie the most are the Israeli govt so that they can excuse their own misdeeds and blame it on america.     
If they would do what's right for the Jewish people instead, America will protest and shout, and then the anger will fade away.  Just like
every time in history that Israel has defied America for Israel's own self-interest
It is the arabs who also promote this lie that Israel is a puppet because they are eternally shamed for being defeated by us in war and they cannot face this embarrassment, so they need to excuse it.   It also plays into their narrative that Jews aren't indigenous to EY but are foreign implants.      Regardless of that, the basic premise is simply untrue.    Some of Israel's leaders behave as puppets due to their fear or selfish motives.   But that doesn't mean Israel is or has to be a puppet state.

Who knows WHY Israeli leaders do what they do? It could be for many reasons. I believe that most of them do NOT want to endanger their own people as a first choice. There has to be some reason for them to do what they do (or don't do). I'd rather believe something more plausible (though kind of silly in of itself) i.e. world appeasement. I don't think the "why" matters as much. It's just the fact that they suck.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

I haven's said I agreed with him or disagreed with him. I've showed that it's not a choice Israel can make.

Ok, and I am asserting that by making that statement you are definitely contradicting what Chaim constantly preaches about what Israel should do and what it could do.    That's fine too, you don't have to agree or think the same way as Chaim.  But to me it is obvious that you are clearly wrong about this!   Israel if it had any guts, could do all the things Chaim talks about and Rabbi Kahane talked about.

It's like me choosing to shoot somebody. Of course I COULD shoot somebody, but doing that will lead to punishment. Similarly, Israel CAN do whatever it wants, but it will be punished. Whether or not the punishment is severe is up for discussion, but they don't want to deal with the universal backlash. Since when did I say anything about Chaim?

There is backlash no matter what they do.  No matter how politically correct they try to be.  Haven't you learned that by now?

Some of us are sick and tired of these excuses and really do not care about backlash and do not care about what the world wants.   Especially considering they send the backlash at us even when we do something completely parve, they manage to twist it and portray it negatively.   Ok, so that's the best they got?   
Some of us are ready to deal head on with backlash, come as it may, as long as we take care of the Arabs.  What's more important here?

And some people, like me, are skeptical that there would really be such a backlash.  I am skeptical that this is a manufactured premise designed to keep good Jews apathetic and shrug their shoulders and throw their hands up in the air and say "well, what can we do, we have no choice, what will america say."   The oslo agenda gets carried out as long as there are enough Jews who are complacent like that and in utter dread and fear of this supposed "backlash" and the built-up persona given to the idea of Israel getting punished - a "conventional wisdom" built up by far leftists and media elites.   One of those "conventional wisdoms" which in my mind is neither conventional nor wise.

There are many countries in the world, many of them behave according to their own interests, not what the UN wants or what the US wants or what one particular other country wants.   They do not get beheaded or nuked.    Most times they get cold relations at worst.    Only very severe DIRECT AFFRONTS (ie an attack on america, or north korea saying it will nuke america) create actual military hostility.    Most of the time, America will express how they don't like a policy and put pressure to try to get it according to their wishes.  If that doesn't work, oh well.    They are not going to send troops into Israel to make Israel treat Arabs gentler .    It is not worth the time and effort of these other countries.     LOL at the idea of them caring about Arabs.  They certainly do not.

You didn't say something about Chaim, but when I contradicted some of your points, another poster here (brennan fan) defended you by saying that you said the same thing as Chaim, or that you are agreeing with Chaim on the points you made.   So I simply tried to assert that is not true.       Obviously, you don't have to agree with Chaim or with anyone.     My main point is not that you differ from Chaim's views, but that your view is mistaken!

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

KWRBT,

It seems that you introduced Chaims opinion into this discussion, not Mo.

Looks can be deceiving.   If you read closely, you will find out that it was DR BRENNAN FAN who introduced Chaim to the thread.   

I pointed out that Chaim's videos, tons of them, say the exact opposite of Mo, because that is true, on the specific point about foreign aid.    Chaim is a knowledgable person, especially on these subjects, so I think he would know whether Israel is capable of defying America or not, and whether they are dependent on the foreign aid or not.    He has said the aid is a tiny portion of Israel's GDP so it really doesn't matter as much as people make it out to.    We have someone here making it to be a lot  (mo is saying it's "ridiculous amounts").      So the reason I mentioned these videos is simply to allude to my own point.    That small amount of  aid doesn't REALLY handcuff Israel, and it doesn't really matter.   They could cut it off tomorrow and Israel would be just fine.    It is no excuse for committing national suicide.    And no other country behaves this idiotic way.

And many countries receive aid.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Who knows WHY Israeli leaders do what they do? It could be for many reasons. I believe that most of them do NOT want to endanger their own people as a first choice. There has to be some reason for them to do what they do (or don't do). I'd rather believe something more plausible (though kind of silly in of itself) i.e. world appeasement. I don't think the "why" matters as much. It's just the fact that they suck.

By your explanation, they don't suck at all!  They are simply doing what they have to do to prevent endangering their own people.      Since you think that is their motivation, and they are doing things for that reason, how can you possibly insult them or speak negatively about them?   They are heroicly saving the Jewish people from harm according to you.     You are a bigger zionist than me!

[The One and Only Mo]

Ok, and I am asserting that by making that statement you are definitely contradicting what Chaim constantly preaches about what Israel should do and what it could do.    That's fine too, you don't have to agree or think the same way as Chaim.  But to me it is obvious that you are clearly wrong about this!   Israel if it had any guts, could do all the things Chaim talks about and Rabbi Kahane talked about.

There is backlash no matter what they do.  No matter how politically correct they try to be.  Haven't you learned that by now?

Some of us are sick and tired of these excuses and really do not care about backlash and do not care about what the world wants.   Especially considering they send the backlash at us even when we do something completely parve, they manage to twist it and portray it negatively.   Ok, so that's the best they got?   
Some of us are ready to deal head on with backlash, come as it may, as long as we take care of the Arabs.  What's more important here?

And some people, like me, are skeptical that there would really be such a backlash.  I am skeptical that this is a manufactured premise designed to keep good Jews apathetic and shrug their shoulders and throw their hands up in the air and say "well, what can we do, we have no choice, what will america say."   The oslo agenda gets carried out as long as there are enough Jews who are complacent like that and in utter dread and fear of this supposed "backlash" and the built-up persona given to the idea of Israel getting punished - a "conventional wisdom" built up by far leftists and media elites.   One of those "conventional wisdoms" which in my mind is neither conventional nor wise.

There are many countries in the world, many of them behave according to their own interests, not what the UN wants or what the US wants or what one particular other country wants.   They do not get beheaded or nuked.    Most times they get cold relations at worst.    Only very severe DIRECT AFFRONTS (ie an attack on america, or north korea saying it will nuke america) create actual military hostility.    Most of the time, America will express how they don't like a policy and put pressure to try to get it according to their wishes.  If that doesn't work, oh well.    They are not going to send troops into Israel to make Israel treat Arabs gentler .    It is not worth the time and effort of these other countries.     LOL at the idea of them caring about Arabs.  They certainly do not.

You didn't say something about Chaim, but when I contradicted some of your points, another poster here (brennan fan) defended you by saying that you said the same thing as Chaim, or that you are agreeing with Chaim on the points you made.   So I simply tried to assert that is not true.       Obviously, you don't have to agree with Chaim or with anyone.     My main point is not that you differ from Chaim's views, but that your view is mistaken!

WE ALL KNOW WHAT IT SHOULD AND COULD DO. I was arguing about what it WON'T do. That's what this was about. We're not arguing about what it CAN or CAN'T do! I said it doesn't want to. When I said "can't" I explained that it 'can't' because it doesn't want to get in trouble, not that it would be impossible. This argument is about WHY IT WON'T. It CAN do whatever t wants, whenever it wants. But it won't. We all know what Israel CAN do, and we all know what it WON'T. That's what Brennanfan explained about my initial post.

[The One and Only Mo]

By your explanation, they don't suck at all!  They are simply doing what they have to do to prevent endangering their own people.      Since you think that is their motivation, and they are doing things for that reason, how can you possibly insult them or speak negatively about them?   They are heroicly saving the Jewish people from harm according to you.     You are a bigger zionist than me!

I said that it's not their first choice to endanger their own people. What does that have to do with the U.S.? yOU ARE PUTTING WORDS INTO MJY MOUTH AGAIN. I NEVER SAID THEY ARE SAVING PEOPLE.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Not true.


Mo is saying that Israel CANNOT disobey the US.  Even if the leaders wanted to.    That is definitely not what Chaim says.

Mo is saying that America gives a "ridiculous" amount of aid to Israel.  The exact opposite of what Chaim says. 
Read the quote again: 
"Whatever the U.S. says, Israel has to do. U.S. contributes sooo much foreign aid to them that it's ridiculous."

Mo's point is, Israel has no choice but to obey the US because without us foreign aid, (now I'm editorializing) all Israelis would starve and america would nuke Israel if they misbehaved, or something.

I don't disagree with anything Mo is saying. Almost 3 billion dollars a year is way too much money for the U.S. to give any country, friendly or not. Even if it is not nearly as important as people think it is psychologically a very powerful tool to keep Israelis enslaved to the idea that they are dependent on the U.S. to survive. Right now most Israelis do indeed feel that way and it would be terrifying for them if their leaders really wanted to "defy" the United States and go off of the money (not that they want to). So right now it would be impossible in this brainwashed state.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

OK look. Please. Both you guys. Stop It.

I never intended for two great JTFers I admire and respect immensely to be at each others' throats because of my thread.

I was saying that all Israelis who support these kangaroo proceedings against these seven Jewish kids deserve to be cursed. That's it. I'm not putting any qualifications on it or going any farther than that. Can't we agree on that much and drop this personal fight?

[The One and Only Mo]

I said that it's not their first choice to endanger their own people. What does that have to do with the U.S.? yOU ARE PUTTING WORDS INTO MJY MOUTH AGAIN. I NEVER SAID THEY ARE SAVING PEOPLE.

I'll break it down: They don't WANT to endanger them, but they are. For whatever reason, they are hurting their own people. I choose to believe it's because they are afraid of the world's opinion. I don't know how you got anything else from that.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

So in other words you buy into the facade that Big Bad America and Big Brother Obama will whip bibi with a stick and "do something" to Israel if bibi does something about the arabs.     And that these consequences are so bad that we should never dare confront such a scenario.

Do I believe that BHO might attack Israel? Yes, absolutely. I think even Chaim does. Israel has become so wimpy and cowardly over the past 15 years that I'm sure the head Muslim in charge thinks he can physically push her around.

Do I believe that Israel needs to take care of business anyway? Absolutely. With G-d on her side, BHO can do nothing.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Until Brennanfan,  the only ones I saw who use the slander "Israhell" are muslims and nazis.

I think Ron used to use that term. I won't use it anymore, ok?

[The One and Only Mo]

OK look. Please. Both you guys. Stop It.

I never intended for two great JTFers I admire and respect immensely to be at each others' throats because of my thread.

I was saying that all Israelis who support these kangaroo proceedings against these seven Jewish kids deserve to be cursed. That's it. I'm not putting any qualifications on it or going any farther than that. Can't we agree on that much and drop this personal fight?

You and muman understood exactly what I was saying, but he didn't. He literally twisted everything I said into something completely different. Whether or not it was my fault for not being more clear, I don't know. But you and Muman understood what I was getting at: Israel can obviously do whatever it wants, but it doesn't because it is afraid. That's all. I said nothing else. I really have no idea what KWRBT is trying to say I said.

[The One and Only Mo]

Do I believe that BHO might attack Israel? Yes, absolutely. I think even Chaim does. Israel has become so wimpy and cowardly over the past 15 years that I'm sure the head Muslim in charge thinks he can physically push her around.

Do I believe that Israel needs to take care of business anyway? Absolutely. With G-d on her side, BHO can do nothing.

Sorry I wasn't as concise as that. I agree with that.

[The One and Only Mo]

I don't disagree with anything Mo is saying. Almost 3 billion dollars a year is way too much money for the U.S. to give any country, friendly or not. Even if it is not nearly as important as people think it is psychologically a very powerful tool to keep Israelis enslaved to the idea that they are dependent on the U.S. to survive. Right now most Israelis do indeed feel that way and it would be terrifying for them if their leaders really wanted to "defy" the United States and go off of the money (not that they want to). So right now it would be impossible in this brainwashed state.

You thought CANNOT meant physically; Cannot, in this context, means will not, as in "I cannot just go to Burger King". It means not allowed to or won't due to other circumstances. I think that's the misunderstanding here.

[Zelhar]

I think Ron used to use that term. I won't use it anymore, ok?

Deal

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

Haven't read all the posts but wanted to reply to something KWRBT was saying about the U.S. True Israel CAN defy American pressure, but the facts are that their is psychological pressure on a certain (high) level, where Israelis and Jews are lead to believe that Israel exists and survives on the good will of America. Of-course that is a lie. Israel was victorious DESPITE America and its greatest victory in 1967 happened because it did not listen to America. Also the giving away of land happened
(greatly) because of the America card that the leftists have been playing. If not for the leftists and America Israel would have more then the 3 Billion per year that America gives it by its oil in the Sinai and more land and assets etc.  Nations have interests and don't think that America is just a generous country that loves to spend $ everywhere. They do it for control.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

You and muman understood exactly what I was saying, but he didn't. He literally twisted everything I said into something completely different. Whether or not it was my fault for not being more clear, I don't know. But you and Muman understood what I was getting at: Israel can obviously do whatever it wants, but it doesn't because it is afraid. That's all. I said nothing else. I really have no idea what KWRBT is trying to say I said.

Here I disagree with you. KWR is a very good Jew and member of this forum and I do not think he has this grudge out for you. I think you both need to forget this and start over fresh.

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

For what I have been saying, just now I read this one youtube someone responding to me
 WE HAVE ARMY TO DO IT!!!! when we do such things we are the same [censored] as the Islamists, where is our morality? not for them but for ourselves, do you think i care about the Arabs? as far as i concerned they can all burn tomorrow, and i won't be sad about it, i care for my own people, i care for Israel, and when we do such things then those who should be our allies in the west think that we are the aggressive, and we need to west with us not against us, at least we should be humane.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

I said that it's not their first choice to endanger their own people. What does that have to do with the U.S.? yOU ARE PUTTING WORDS INTO MJY MOUTH AGAIN. I NEVER SAID THEY ARE SAVING PEOPLE.

The US?  I don't know, I didn't mention the US in my comment that you quoted.

I didn't say that YOU SAID they are saving people.  I am drawing a logical conclusion from what you did say. 
IF (according to you) the Israeli leaders behave the way they do because they don't want to endanger their own people, THEN how can you, Mo, condemn them?   By that logic they have good intentions (MY LOGICAL CONCLUSION FROM WHAT YOU SAID ¡ DOES NOT CLAIM THAT YOU SAID THIS- I assert that you imply this by what you said and is the only logical conclusion to draw) and if they have good intentions to prevent harm to the israeli people then what exactly is your beef with them.  BY THAT LOGIC, you should celebrate them.  (I'm not saying you DO or DID celebrate them, saying you should based on your line of reasoning.  And thus calling you zionist was obviously tongue in cheek, not putting words in your mouth.  But really why would you not be zionist then?  It sounds to me like the israeli leaders are heroic the way you describe them.)

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

I'll break it down: They don't WANT to endanger them, but they are. For whatever reason, they are hurting their own people. I choose to believe it's because they are afraid of the world's opinion. I don't know how you got anything else from that.

It sounded to me before that you were saying that the motivation for why israel does not defy the us demands is because the leaders of israel want to avoid thewhatever resulting harm would come upon israelis for doing that.   That was what prompted my other comments.  Did you not say something like that?

I must have been confused by certain comments.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Do I believe that BHO might attack Israel? Yes, absolutely.

That is not a rational belief.  No matter how much he hates israel, and boy does he ever, that is still not a realistic scenario under any circumstance. 

[muman613]

AMALEK!

Amalek is certainly at work in this situation. The gematria of Amalek is the same as the gematria of Safek, or doubt.

What I am saying is that the doubt which enters the minds of the so-called leaders of Israel, and the average Israeli who doesn't know much about Judaism, causes them to fear what will happen if they don't dance to the tune of America, and more so the 'world opinion' which Mo is talking about.

Amalek, the force which we are supposed to confront and to destroy causes us to instead fear and cower. They, and some of us too, are afraid of what happens if G-d Forbid, Hashem is not with us. This is also what led to many of the problems our forefathers had in the desert when the sin of the spies transpired. Those who have strong faith in the promise of our G-d will know in their hearts and minds that it is possible to do what Hashem wants, with his assistance if we put in the effort. We must not be afraid, but it is difficult because of the wicked winds of Amalek which blow through us.

This is my opinion...

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

I think Jews in general have a complex they need to get over.  The desperate need to be loved or perceive a gesture of love.

Say israel does the right thing on some random issue.  Like when they rescued people in haiti.  But the media spins it negative.  Who the hell cares?  Are we in a popularity contest?  Are we that insecure and emotionally unstable?

Individuals mature by realizing they do not need the validation from others.  That's how true self confidence is born.  The Jewish people needs to mature on a national level.

[muman613]

I think Jews in general have a complex they need to get over.  The desperate need to be loved or perceive a gesture of love.

Say israel does the right thing on some random issue.  Like when they rescued people in haiti.  But the media spins it negative.  Who the hell cares?  Are we in a popularity contest?  Are we that insecure and emotionally unstable?

Individuals mature by realizing they do not need the validation from others.  That's how true self confidence is born.  The Jewish people needs to mature on a national level.

I agree with you 100% on this... I do not care what people think of me because I know who I am, I know what I believe about Hashem and the nature of our world, and I separate myself from the mundane and move toward the Holy.