Author Topic: Since 1973, 55 million American babies have been murdered (new JTF video) (Read 5129 times)

Chaim Ben Pesach · « **on:** January 16, 2013, 07:22:34 PM »

בס''ד

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TruthSpreader · « **Reply #1 on:** January 17, 2013, 07:49:50 AM »

Great video. I didn't knew the abortion rate in America was that high.

Rubystars · « **Reply #2 on:** January 17, 2013, 09:41:54 AM »

I wish there would've been a warning about graphic material

Tag-MehirTzedek · « **Reply #3 on:** January 19, 2013, 08:48:53 PM »

Excuse my ignorance but why is abortion considered "murder" ?

In the past I glanced this here
http://rationalistmedicalhalacha.blogspot.com/

with various opinions brought but I never solidly studied this subject.

TruthSpreader · « **Reply #4 on:** January 20, 2013, 08:27:13 AM »

Quote from: Tag-MehirTzedek on January 19, 2013, 08:48:53 PM

Excuse my ignorance but why is abortion considered "murder" ?

In the past I glanced this here
http://rationalistmedicalhalacha.blogspot.com/

with various opinions brought but I never solidly studied this subject.

Because its againsts Gods will. Abortion is just as bad as murder.

Tag-MehirTzedek · « **Reply #5 on:** January 20, 2013, 12:54:55 PM »

Quote from: YemachshemotoObama on January 20, 2013, 08:27:13 AM

Because its againsts Gods will. Abortion is just as bad as murder.

I plead ignorance on this subject but from what I remember (and only studying this superficially) the status of an unborn child in the womb is not like the status of a child that already came out (at least the head came out of the women's body). In the first case for sure everyone agrees that when in danger to the mother the child can be aborted, when the head came out already it cannot since one life does not take precedence over another life and they are equal (mother and child). This I believe everyone agrees to. (At least for Jewish babies and mothers). Soo it does not come out that the statues of an unborn child is = exactly to a child that was born (or at least partially born with the head out).
Soo abortion does not = murder but can be something in between, because had it been = to murder a baby that poses a life risk to the mother would not have been allowed to be killed for the sake of the mothers life.

Rubystars · « **Reply #6 on:** January 20, 2013, 02:11:08 PM »

They're taking a baby with arms, legs, a head, a brain, a heart, etc. and chopping them to pieces. That's why it's murder.

Tag-MehirTzedek · « **Reply #7 on:** January 20, 2013, 02:15:23 PM »

Quote from: Rubystars on January 20, 2013, 02:11:08 PM

They're taking a baby with arms, legs, a head, a brain, a heart, etc. and chopping them to pieces. That's why it's murder.

Soo then why or would you allow it to be killed (or murdered as you say) if the baby is a danger to the mothers life. Meaning the baby is in the stomach and it is not yett born, but is the mother does not get an abortion the mother would die in this case. For Jews at least the abortion would be done in this case for sure. But if it was after the baby was born or with its head coming out then it would be forbidden even for the life of the mother.

Lubab · « **Reply #8 on:** January 20, 2013, 02:29:10 PM »

When the baby is threatening the mother's life the child gains the status of a Rodef (a pursuer of innocent Jewish blood). In Judaism, as I understand it, one is permitted and even obligated to kill a murderer when he is in the act of trying to kill another.

I think that when the baby's head has exited, if as you say, abortion is then not allowed, it may be because at that point the grave danger to them mother has passed.

muman613 · « **Reply #9 on:** January 20, 2013, 02:29:28 PM »

Quote from: Tag-MehirTzedek on January 20, 2013, 12:54:55 PM

I plead ignorance on this subject but from what I remember (and only studying this superficially) the status of an unborn child in the womb is not like the status of a child that already came out (at least the head came out of the women's body). In the first case for sure everyone agrees that when in danger to the mother the child can be aborted, when the head came out already it cannot since one life does not take precedence over another life and they are equal (mother and child). This I believe everyone agrees to. (At least for Jewish babies and mothers). Soo it does not come out that the statues of an unborn child is = exactly to a child that was born (or at least partially born with the head out).
Soo abortion does not = murder but can be something in between, because had it been = to murder a baby that poses a life risk to the mother would not have been allowed to be killed for the sake of the mothers life.

I have explained the 'Jewish' view of abortion several times here. There is only one allowance and that is if the baby is a threat to the mothers life. In this case the unborn baby may be terminated.

See this post which I made in 2011:

http://jtf.org/forum/index.php/topic,55883.msg508731.html#msg508731

Debbie Shafer · « **Reply #10 on:** January 20, 2013, 02:41:16 PM »

Thank you so much Chaim for putting this on your website, I hope more websites do also...Tuesday is Right to LIfe day...I was on several websites today talking about this issue....Actually the hypocrisy of the Left that says they care so much about children and babies, and exploited the Sandy Hook tragedy of the little ones who were murdered there, to take guns away from law abiding citizens to stop the violence, but yet have not advocated hiring retired police, or state police, security guards, packing heat to protect our school children like Sheriff Joe Arpaio did, smacks of hypocrisy....He actually did something that will make our kids safer....Our president voted not once but twice against the measure that would stop late-term partial birth abortion, which Daniel Patrick Moynihan called, "too close to infanticide." The Right to Life sermons were being preached in many churches today. How can a nation that has killed over 55 million babies ever hope to live by the Grace of God! God, Hashem who sits in the heavens has to be very angry!

More Hypocricy and using tragedies to bring people to the Radical Left's agenda...they use whatever they can to pass their agenda!!!!!

Tag-MehirTzedek · « **Reply #11 on:** January 20, 2013, 02:49:26 PM »

Quote from: Lubab on January 20, 2013, 02:29:10 PM

When the baby is threatening the mother's life the child gains the status of a Rodef (a pursuer of innocent Jewish blood). In Judaism, as I understand it, one is permitted and even obligated to kill a murderer when he is in the act of trying to kill another.

I think that when the baby's head has exited, if as you say, abortion is then not allowed, it may be because at that point the grave danger to them mother has passed.

Yes to first part, but even after the baby came out (partially) then it is not allowed to kill it since they have = status. This means that till that point (of birth) the fetus had a lower status then it had at the point of actually birth and even in the case where the mother will die the baby cannot be killed since then the mother and baby are = in statues. Soo logically then the baby before being born and after being born are not = thus we cannot say that abortion is murder (still cannot say it is not assur- forbidden) because had it been "murder" then no abortion would be allowed even if the mothers life was at risk and it was before the time of birth. You follow the logic?

Lubab I don't see it online but have it in front of me (on paper)

See Mishna Oholos 7:6
The see Gemara Sanhedrin 72b(Rashi)

( I am quoting a little from the end because of time)

It is different there in the case of the baby's birth- Because [the mother] is being persued by Heaven, i.e. the mother's life is being endangered by the natural phenomenon of childbirth [29] This, even if a persuer who is a minor may be killed, as Rav Huna maintains, still a baby may not be killed during childbirth on order to save its mother [30]

29. See Rambam, Hil. Rotzeiach 1:9.
30. Because a baby is not willfully pursing the mother to kill her; he is a mere participant in the natural birth process. Since the baby is not a willful pursuer, it may not be put to death once it has a full-fledged life on its own, i.e. when most of its head is out of the mothers body. (Cf. Rambam ibid., Tosefos R' Akiva Eiger to Oholos 7:6 and Chidushei R'Chaim Ha Levi to Rambam as loc.;

muman613 · « **Reply #12 on:** January 20, 2013, 02:56:30 PM »

I will say once again my feelings on this topic... While I think it is a monumental tragedy that so many unborn babies are terminated and something must be done to stop all this suffering, I also have to acknowledge how the Torah relates to this issue. While many may say that the Torah is out-of-date and the laws which it brings are no longer relevant to society today I am one who adheres to the belief that the Torahs laws are eternal, and the wisdom of life is embedded in these laws.

The Torah does not exactly view Abortion as Murder, as Tag explained previously. The article which I reposted in 2011 from Aish.com explains the various views from the 'Jewish perspective' that the Torah proscribes a monetary payment in the case someone causes a woman to miscarry. The sages have taken this to mean that if a woman should lose her child as the result of the action of another person then that person is liable to monetary payments. This is why the sages conclude that should a woman abort her pregnancy, the one who caused it is not considered a murderer.

But today our society is different, and abortion has become commonplace and a replacement for birth control. Today there is an industry built around it, and a political force which uses it for power. It seems truly evil and I can understand why the Christians and others of conscience would make this an issue. I certainly am disgusted with the way abortion is being used, and the lives which are destroyed by its implementation.

As always I return to my faiths teachings on the topic. If this procedure were only implemented in it's legal manner (regarding the rodef case) then I would not have an issue with it. But something must be done to prevent it being used as 'birth control' by irresponsible young people who are promiscuous. I am not sure of the Halacha concerning 'the pill' but it still seems to me to be better than getting pregnant. That is a completely different 'can of worms' so to speak...

Tag-MehirTzedek · « **Reply #13 on:** January 20, 2013, 03:05:24 PM »

Muman about the pill many (maybe not all) allow it but only under the circumstances. It should be on a case by case basis and one needs to get a heter from a competent Orthodox Rav.

http://machonshilo.org/en/eng/list-ask-the-rav/60-marriage-conjugal-relations/621-birth-control

Tag-MehirTzedek · « **Reply #14 on:** January 20, 2013, 06:30:54 PM »

Some hold that it is murder other's do not. This is (some of the list ranging from most lenient to strict)

. I do not mean to say that this or that posek is the only one who holds that particular opinion.

Tosfos - abortion is Muttar
Ran and Rosh - abortion is muttar as long as you are not putting the mother in physical danger by terminating the pregnancy
Ramban, Ramah, Behag - Abortion is a bad thing because we are preventing the existence of a future Human being and shomer Mitzvos, but it is still permitted to do in extenuating circumstances
Maharit - Abortion is assur because one is wounding, or causing a chavallah, in the pregnant mother. According to this approach, abortions would be permitted for constructive purposes, in the same way that one is allowed to wound oneself for a constructive purpose. Some would extend this even further and say that a woman can abort her own fetus, just as she is allowed to wound herself.
Rav ZN Goldberg 's understanding of the Rambam - that abortion would be prohibited due to chavallah of the fetus (this would be an additional reason for the prohibition, above whatever understanding you may have of the Rambam, and above other reasons suggested by HaRav Goldberg in other places. I am not claiming that HaRav Goldberg holds that this is the only reason why an abortion may be prohibited. - see our lengthy discussion of the Rambam's opinion here)
According to the Ohr Sameakh's understanding of the Rosh, one who performs an abortion without the permission of the parents is transgressing the prohibition of gezeilah, stealing.
According to HaRav SZA ZTL one who aborts a fetus is guilty of gezeilah from the fetus him/herself. Whether or not the parents would be allowed to give permission remains an open question.
Chavos Yair, due to the prohibition of wasting seed (which according to him is a torah prohibition)
According to the Mizrachi and Rav Chaim Palagi and their interpretation of the Rishonim, the Chachamim declared that a Jew is prohibited from performing an abortion because a gentile is prohibited, and it would be inappropriate for a Jew to be allowed to do something that is prohibited to a gentile. They explicitly and vehemently reject the possibility that it has anything to do with Shefichat damim (murder).
According to R Yaakov Emden, abortions are prohibited because of waste, which is a rabbinic aspect of the HZL prohibition; therefore they can be performed in circumstances of great need. If the child is illegitimate from a relationship that would incur the death penalty, the RYE would allow it outright.
The opinion of the Beit Yehuda and the Chofetz Chaim (according to his interpretation of Tosfos) that it was a rabbinic decree and the reason for this decree was because it is akin to murder.
Abortion is a rabbinic decree because permitting abortions would encourage promiscuity (Chavos Yair 31)
Abortion is a rabbinic decree because it would be a negation of the mitzvah of P’ru U’rvu (the obligation to procreate) (Mishpetei Uziel here)
Abortion was a rabbinic decree because it will prevent the potential of a future life (Mishpetei Uziel here)
Abortion was a rabbinic decree because by terminating a pregnancy, one prevents a future soul from doing mitzvos (Ohel Moshe by Rav Moshe Zweig Chelek 3 page 49)
Abortions are considered morally wrong by other religions, and thus we should also take a moral stand (Ohel Moshe, see above)
The opinion of Rav Moshe Feinstein that it is indeed prohibited due to murder
The opinion of the Maharam Shick and Sdei Chemed that it is Avizrayhu of retzichah due to chatzi shiur
The opinion of the Minchas Avrohom that it is due to murder but he differs from RMF by only applying this rule if the fetus is viable
The opinion of the Meshekh chochmah and Moshav Zekeinim LeDaas Baalei Tosfos who hold that it is murder and liable "medin shamayim", and the drasha of rabbi yishmael only exempts Jews from punishment from Beit Din
One more opinion is that of the Zohar, which I did not discuss because it is unclear from the Zohar what the Zohar actually holds from a Halachic perspective. The Zohar speaks about how terrible abortion is because it is ruining the creation of God. (see` Zohar Shmot 3:2)

http://rationalistmedicalhalacha.blogspot.com/2011/02/now-that-i-have-completed-my.html

( He then goes on to explain different time periods) I'm just bringing these opinions not saying which way I believe, because I simply do not know.

USAReturn2GodNow1776 · « **Reply #15 on:** January 21, 2013, 03:42:50 AM »

Great video!

Rothstein77 · « **Reply #16 on:** January 22, 2013, 12:06:25 AM »

a lot of those murdered babies were blacks though, so they don't count toward the total

EDIT: Racist epithet edited.

muman613 · « **Reply #17 on:** January 22, 2013, 12:10:20 AM »

Quote from: Rothstein77 on January 22, 2013, 12:06:25 AM

a lot of those murdered babies were blacks though, so they don't count toward the total

How do you know this? Do you think white girls don't get abortions?

Every Jew AK47 · « **Reply #18 on:** January 22, 2013, 12:46:21 AM »

Quote from: Rothstein77 on January 22, 2013, 12:06:25 AM

a lot of those murdered babies were blacks though, so they don't count toward the total

EDIT: Racist epithet edited.

TROLL. I have seen your other posts and I know you are only here to start trouble.

Every Jew AK47 · « **Reply #19 on:** January 22, 2013, 12:53:03 AM »

I'm against abortion fully. This put me at odds with my Rabbi and synagogue who supports abortion. I am actually tired of the excuse if it can save the mother's life. Obviously, a baby that may never be born has less importance than a mother who is fully grown. However, a majority of aborted babies are done so out of selfishness and to pursue a lustful lifestyle.

In Japan, many women don't use birth control, they just get routine abortions. How sickening is that?

In India, abortions are throwing the gender balance way out of proportion and running the risk of bring devastation to the country. Many men in India cannot even find a wife ,as the ratio of men to women is so high. This is known as sex-selective abortion. It is wrecking havoc in India and even China.

To me, if you murder a baby in the womb for no more of a reason then the child would strain your finances, ruin your sex life or be a burden on your career, you are assuming the role of Hashem. I am not skilled enough to give any references in Torah, but I know from my own heart and reading the Bible how precious human life is to Hashem. There are instances in Torah where it talks about a man being killed for wasting his seed and for a woman having her hand chopped off for grabbing a man's testicles. This to me shows how sacred human life is to Hashem.

Obviously, if the baby runs the risk of killing the mother, it would not be murdering the baby, but euthanizing it to save the life of the mother.

I ask many of the people who have murdered their unborn children why is it ok to murder a living human in your womb, but not to murder a baby already born for the same reasons? The baby that is 1 or 2 days old has many of the same functions of a baby who is 3 months from being born. Would you murder a newborn?

I just watched Chaim's video and I have to say this is one of the best anti-abortion videos I have seen. It is very thought provoking and does a good job to promote the message about the horrors of abortion. I am going to share this on some anti-abortion forums I have frequented in the past. The video of the babies in the garbage can definitely struck a nerve in me, especially with the presentation that was made by Chaim.

Good work on this video Chaim.

Rothstein77 · « **Reply #20 on:** January 22, 2013, 01:59:06 PM »

Quote from: muman613 on January 22, 2013, 12:10:20 AM

How do you know this? Do you think white girls don't get abortions?

nice straw man. negroes murder their babies at a far higher rate than whites, and it's not close. i've never seen a hot black girl in my life. they all look like men, they don't look like girls at all.

muman613 · « **Reply #21 on:** January 22, 2013, 04:42:20 PM »

Quote from: Rothstein77 on January 22, 2013, 01:59:06 PM

nice straw man. negroes murder their babies at a far higher rate than whites, and it's not close. i've never seen a hot black girl in my life. they all look like men, they don't look like girls at all.

Sounds like you are the straw man in this argument, troll... Abortion is immoral and the way it is practiced today it is against the Torah. Personally to me, and to the Jewish faith, it makes no difference if they are white black or purple...

Tag-MehirTzedek · « **Reply #22 on:** January 22, 2013, 07:29:04 PM »

Quote from: EveryJewA44 on January 22, 2013, 12:53:03 AM

I'm against abortion fully. This put me at odds with my Rabbi and synagogue who supports abortion. I am actually tired of the excuse if it can save the mother's life.

If its a question for the mothers life or the unborn fetus (at least for Jews this is for sure) the life of the mother takes precedence. In fact NOT to do the abortion would be the great sin in this situation. These are questions in Halacha (for Jews at least) and not about politics or preferences.

Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks · « **Reply #23 on:** January 22, 2013, 07:51:44 PM »

The only valid reason for abortion in any religion is medical emergency--Chaim has explained this many times.

Tag-MehirTzedek · « **Reply #24 on:** January 22, 2013, 08:17:07 PM »

Quote from: Waiting for the Mother Plane to Come on January 22, 2013, 07:51:44 PM

The only valid reason for abortion in any religion is medical emergency--Chaim has explained this many times.

Their are different opinions to this ( I dont know the conclusive answer) and I heard different views said. I was referring to someone else who talked about not making abortion in the case of a mother who can die. No one agrees to that scenario. The unborn fetus must be aborted in that case. At least in the case of a Jewish mother. for non-Jews I have no clue about the legalities (at least according to Misswoth Bnai Noah and those who want to be righteous and follow them correctly).