Need advice from a learned Jew re: the 'poor'

[newman]

Torah requires us to tithe 10% of our income to the poor.....correct?

This law was given before big government, income taxes and social security. If I pay on average 30% of my income in federal taxes and the federal gov't spends 25% of all revenue on social security, have I not allready contributed 7.5% in effect?

Secondly, who should we consider poor? An unemployed/ invalided person in Australia is still able to eat three meals/day, and live under a roof with hot/cold running water and adequately cloth themselves. An unemployed/invalided family with 3 kids get a higher income from social security than they would if they worked at an entry level job. Nobody can be in dire straights unless it is by choice. Should we not expect some measure of personal responsibility here? The biblical injunction is to cloth the poor.....not buy them televisions or booze. If someone is homeless because they blew their income on alcohol or gambling, Are we obligated to give them money and subsidize their stupidity?

If someone with a proper Hebrew perspective can address the above points it would help me greatly.

[jdl4ever]

Well, it's not required, but highly encouraged for Jews to give 10% of your income to charity (not necessarily to the poor, but to any charity), since it is a Jewish custom that started with our forefather Abraham who gave 10% of his income to Malcheitzedek, who was a righteous gentile priest of G-d and all religious Jews follow this custom and give 10% of their income to charity.  If you are poor yourself, then you just give as much as you can afford.  As far as Gentiles are concerned, I don't think it is required since it is not one of the 7 Noahide laws, but is a good thing to do and pleasing to G-d.  To me it is logical that the 10% is calculated after taxes, you give 10% of the money that you keep.  It is up to you to give it to whichever Charity you want to so you can leave out the drug addicts. 

[Sarah]

Sorry, newman, i hope you don't mind if i join in with asking questions...

How about if you want to calculate a percentage to give to the poor but a lot of your income is invested, would the invested wealth be included in the calculation?

Is it a sin not to give this charity?

[jdl4ever]

This question is too advanced for me, Lubab will have to answer this one. 

The only one I can answer is that it is not a sin if you don't give 10% of your income to charity.  But you should give at least some of your income to the poor or to charity.  Giving to the poor is required for Jews and is one of the commandments in the Bible.  As for Gentiles, I presume charity is highly encouraged to please G-d but is not required. 

[Sarah]

This question is too advanced for me, Lubab will have to answer this one. 

The only one I can answer is that it is not a sin if you don't give 10% of your income to charity.  But you should give at least some of your income to the poor or to charity.  Giving to the poor is required for Jews and is one of the commandments in the Bible.  As for Gentiles, I presume charity is highly encouraged to please G-d but is not required. 

Thank you.

[Lubab]

The 10% comes from the money you take in-that means after taxes. (You can do before taxes-but you don't have to).

The Rambam says whom you should give charity to first. You should first take care of your own family the people you know, then the people in your community (this is called the Din of Kadima).

As far as responsiblity goes, its not so simple. The Rabbis tell us that G-d intentionally made rich and poor people so there could be kindness in the world. So really the 10% belongs to the poor person, not us. G-d just wanted to give it to him in this indirect way so you could do the mitzvah. So really you owe him double. You've got to give him his money and you should really give him more because he had to suffer so you could do a mitzvah. It easily could have been the other way around.

With the investments you'd calculate the profit from the investments and take 10% off that.

[newman]

If the 10% is calculated on after tax $ you are being double stung. You have earned all of your pre-tax dollars but a government has stolen 30 to 40 % to give some to the poor.

If you have your own business and have no automatic tax deduction, is the 10% still calculated on after tax income?

With referrence to the fist post ( see top ), who do we consider poor in a western country?

[jdl4ever]

Nice answer Lubab. 

[Lubab]

If the 10% is calculated on after tax $ you are being double stung. You have earned all of your pre-tax dollars but a government has stolen 30 to 40 % to give some to the poor.

If you have your own business and have no automatic tax deduction, is the 10% still calculated on after tax income?

With referrence to the fist post ( see top ), who do we consider poor in a western country?

Hey, nobody is saying this is ideal. This is GALUT. If it was a Torah system you would not have the double sting as you say. But would you rather take the 10% from the pre-tax money-then you're really getting a double sting.

Being "poor" in the Torah is a subjective standard-it depends on the person and what sort of standard of living they are used to. Even a rich person who is used to having 20 cars and now only has 18-it's charity to get him back to his standard. If someone's life is in danger that obviously comes before everything.

[Lubab]

Nice answer Lubab. 

Thanks.

[newman]

If the general rule is the order of self, family, neighbour, community etc..

......given that my family are fine, my community is fairly affluent and those who aren't are still doing very well by world standards, can I just give my portion to the poor of Israel or will I get a curse for not giving in my own country first?

[Lubab]

1. Are you Jewish?
2. Why not just donate it all to JTF? Its the best of both worlds.

[newman]

No....not jewish.

[Sarah]

No....not jewish.

Really, i thought you were.

[Lubab]

No....not jewish.

Oh. So you don't have to give the 10%. There goes that problem.

[newman]

Thanks, Lubab....so I can give whatever to whomever and it's still a blessing?

[Lubab]

Right. As a Noahide there's only one thing you have to do and that's establish courts of justice (based on the Noahide laws).

All your other 6 commandments are negative commandments. ("shalt nots").

It is praiseworthy to give charity nonetheless.

You can also take on most of the 613 commandments for purposes of receiving reward, but they are not obligatory.

[newman]

Right. As a Noahide there's only one thing you have to do and that's establish courts of justice (based on the Noahide laws).

All your other 6 commandments are negative commandments. ("shalt nots").

It is praiseworthy to give charity nonetheless.

You can also take on most of the 613 commandments for purposes of receiving reward, but they are not obligatory.

But if we noachides keep Shabbat in the manner of a Jew or wear tassles as a Jew does we're in trouble, I'm told.

We can take on marriage and honouring our parents as extras and most of us already have, but where can I find clear guide lines as to which of the 613 we can follow and which ones we can't.

[Lubab]

To my knowledge, Shabbos and tefillin are the only ones that are a problem. I had never heard that Tzitzis was a problem, but I could see why it might be.

I don't know of any list. But I'lll tell you what-if you feel you want to take on a Mitzvah, let me know what it is and I will look into it for you.


Also, I always tell Noahides that they should be active in trying to influence their governments to establish their laws based on the Noahide laws. This is your only positive commandment and not one government today has it.

In Austraillia actually, is proabably your best shot at creating a Noahide government. Maybe start with a letter-writting campaign, then you could run a Noahide candidate, start a Noahide party etc.

It's important the Noahide laws be kept because they are commanded by G-d, not just because we think they make sense. This is the only path to true morality.

[newman]

I don't know of any noachide laws not enforced by our courts. Even the Japanese resteraunts aren't allowed to eat lobsters alive now. Boiling crabs / shrimp alive might be a violation, though.

From memory, the Jewish-only laws we can't follow tend to be things that constitute impersonation of a Jew: Tzitzis, peyot, tefflin, mezuzot, strict Shabbat observence etc. We can wear a kippa in shull and there is a noachide prayer shawl that has no tzitzis and a rainbow pattern around the edge instead of blue. The celebration of Jewish holidays is a bit of a grey area. I think noachides should celebrate all Jewish holidays as they all comemorate the deliverence of the Jews in some respect for which we goyim should give thanks. It is probably the manner in which we celebrate them that is more important as with Shabbat.

The principle behind this is that if the goyim look and act the same as Jews, the other goyim won't know who the difference between Jews and gentiles. It's the same reason catholic lay persons don't wear priest's collars or nuns' habbits.

[Lubab]

I don't know of any noachide laws not enforced by our courts. Even the Japanese resteraunts aren't allowed to eat lobsters alive now. Boiling crabs / shrimp alive might be a violation, though.

From memory, the Jewish-only laws we can't follow tend to be things that constitute impersonation of a Jew: Tzitzis, peyot, tefflin, mezuzot, strict Shabbat observence etc. We can wear a kippa in shull and there is a noachide prayer shawl that has no tzitzis and a rainbow pattern around the edge instead of blue. The celebration of Jewish holidays is a bit of a grey area. I think noachides should celebrate all Jewish holidays as they all comemorate the deliverence of the Jews in some respect for which we goyim should give thanks. It is probably the manner in which we celebrate them that is more important as with Shabbat.

The principle behind this is that if the goyim look and act the same as Jews, the other goyim won't know who the difference between Jews and gentiles. It's the same reason catholic lay persons don't wear priest's collars or nuns' habbits.

Oh the current laws are very far from the Noahide laws. For starters, the laws have to be based on the belief that these are G-d's laws.
Many slaughterers use a procedure in which they shock the animal and start cutting it up before its dead. This is a big violation of eating the limb of a live animal.

Also violation of the negative Noahide laws is supposed to be punishable by death. The courts should be using the Torah sages to decide their cases not prior precedent, and the list goes on and on.

You are right about the fact that you can commemorate the inner meaning of the Jewish holidays (including Shabbos) you just can't keep them in the way Jews do.

But if you want to light 7 candles to remember that G-d created the world in 7 days-you can certainly do that.



If you learn about the reasons for these holidays

[newman]

I'd love to have the courts based around the Sheva Mitzvot. However, I can just imagine the secular left in the cultural elite screaming their heads off about that....couts based on Torah, Impossible! Of course if it was some east asian hippie-type religion that would not be a problem.

I beleive the US congress passed a motion recognising the Sheva Mitzvot as the oldest form of law. That's a small start.

[MarZutra]

I believe that the concept of Charity is only meant to be given to the G-d fearing and not just anyone who happens to be poor under Halacha.  Charity is such a distortion today it is hardly comparable to anything that it was meant to be...

[Lubab]

I believe that the concept of Charity is only meant to be given to the G-d fearing and not just anyone who happens to be poor under Halacha.  Charity is such a distortion today it is hardly comparable to anything that it was meant to be...

I hope G-d is not so strict in evaluatiating whether he will give us the charity He does everyday .

[Lubab]

I'd love to have the courts based around the Sheva Mitzvot. However, I can just imagine the secular left in the cultural elite screaming their heads off about that....couts based on Torah, Impossible! Of course if it was some east asian hippie-type religion that would not be a problem.

I beleive the US congress passed a motion recognising the Sheva Mitzvot as the oldest form of law. That's a small start.

Yes. We will need to explain to the people that any system of government that attempts to ignore religion is doomed to failure.

Religion establishes the highest ideal in the heirarchy of needs and desires. Without that highest ideal established, there is no framework from which to decide moral dilemas.

For instance, the highest ideals in the American institutions are life, liberty, and happiness etc.
However these are not the top of the heirarchy of desires. One must still figure out WHY we want liberty, and WHY we want happiness-what is the purpose of it all (only the Torah tells us this).

Without establishing the highest ideal one will never know how to deal with conflicts between liberty and happiness (as is always played out in the abortion debate-it's the mother's liberty/happiness vs. the baby's life).

If a system of governmet is to endure it must be based on the Torah. Simple as that. We must explain this to the folks.