Author Topic: Should a Jew believe in reincarnation?  (Read 3434 times)

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Offline kyel

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Should a Jew believe in reincarnation?
« on: November 22, 2013, 02:38:54 AM »
I have recently been watching videos from orthodox Rabbis and they touch on subjects like out of body experiences, seances, reincarnation and dream interpretation...is it appropriate to believe or focus on these things in Judaism? I feel like they cross a very thin line between being idolatry and paganism


Offline muman613

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Re: Should a Jew believe in reincarnation?
« Reply #1 on: November 22, 2013, 02:57:27 AM »
I am a Chassidic Jew and I believe in Gilgul, or the reincarnation of souls. In Jewish belief, especially Chassidic belief, there are various matters to be concerned with. The Kabbalah, which is what you are referring to, is not a subject which one should concentrate on until you have learned the basic pshat (understanding) and learned the Halacha's and studied the Tanakh.

I have never seen any Orthodox Rabbi discuss 'Out of Body' experience, seance is something to be concerned with because the Torah forbids it. Dream interpretation may be kosher but I have never seen such things.

Where do you learn about these Rabbis? I post a lot of videos of Rabbis which I consider to be teaching authentic Chassidish Torah.

Seance = BIG NONO

Dream Interpretation = Possibly kosher because the Torah does discuss the importance of dreams

Out of Body Experience = Not really sure if this is kosher.

Aside from Seance (talking with the dead), I do not see these others as being Idolatry according to the Torah.

Idolatry basically (in my own expression) is the ascribing of power to physical representations, or images. When a person believes that there is a power in a graven image or object (such as stone, wood, or the stars) this denies the absolute power of Hashem, and thus it falls outside of the belief of Judaism.

Gilgulim is not idolatry, it is a common discussion in light of the concept of Tikkun (rectifying or fixing the world) for the sin of Adam HaRishon (the 1st man).

See Rambams Laws of Idolatry : http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/912359/jewish/Chapter-One.htm
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

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Re: Should a Jew believe in reincarnation?
« Reply #2 on: November 22, 2013, 03:04:59 AM »
Although technically this is Off-Topic, I am posting it to explain what exactly Idolatry entails, according to the Laws of Idolatry, as expounded in Halacha of Rambam...

http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/912360/jewish/Chapter-Two.htm

Halacha 1

The essence of the commandment [forbidding] the worship of false gods is not to serve any of the creations, not an angel, a sphere, or a star, none of the four fundamental elements, nor any entity created from them. Even if the person worshiping knows that ‘ה is the [true] God and serves the creation in the manner in which Enosh and the people of his generation worshiped [the stars] originally, he is considered to be an idol worshiper.

The Torah warns us about this, saying [Deuteronomy 4:19]: "Lest you lift your eyes heavenward and see the sun, the moon, and the stars... [and bow down and worship them], the entities which God apportioned to all the nations." This implies that you might inquire with "the eye of the heart" and it might appear to you that these entities control the world, having been apportioned by God to all the nations to be alive, to exist, and not to cease existence, as is the pattern of [the other creations with] the world. Therefore, you might say that it is worthy to bow down to them and worship them.

For this reason, [Deuteronomy 11:16] commands: "Be very careful that your heart not be tempted [to go astray and worship other gods]." This implies that the thoughts of your heart should not lead you astray to worship these and make them an intermediary between you and the Creator.

Halacha 2

The worshipers of false gods have composed many texts concerning their service, [describing] what is the essence of their service, what practices are involved, and what are its statutes. The Holy One, blessed be He, has commanded us not to read those books at all, nor to think about them or any matters involved with them.

It is even forbidden to look at the image of an idol, as [Leviticus 19:4] states: "Do not turn to the idols." In this regard, [Deuteronomy 12:30] states: "[Be careful]... lest you seek to find out about their gods, saying, 'How did they serve them.' This prohibits inquiring about the nature of their service even if you, yourself, do not serve them. This matter will ultimately cause you to turn to [the false god] and worship it as they do, as [the above verse continues]: "so that I will do the same."

Halacha 3

All these prohibitions have one common thrust: that one should not pay attention to idol worship. Whoever performs a deed that reflects his concern with [idol worship] receives lashes [as punishment].

The worship of false gods is not the only subject to which we are forbidden to pay attention; rather, we are warned not to consider any thought which will cause us to uproot one of the fundamentals of the Torah. We should not turn our minds to these matters, think about them, or be drawn after the thoughts of our hearts.

In general, people have limited powers of understanding, and not all minds are capable of appreciating the truth in its fullness. [Accordingly,] were a person to follow the thoughts of his heart, it is possible that he would destroy the world because of his limited understanding.

What is implied? There are times when a person will stray after star worship, and times when he will wonder about God's oneness: Perhaps He is one, perhaps He is not? [He might also wonder:] What exists above, [in the heavenly realms]? What exists below [them]? What was before time? What will be after time? Similarly, [one might wonder about] prophecy: Perhaps it is true, perhaps it is not? And [one may also wonder] about the Torah: Perhaps it emanates from God, perhaps it does not?

Since he may not know the guidelines with which to evaluate [ideas that will lead him] to the truth in its fullness, he may come to heresy. The Torah has warned about this matter, saying [Numbers 15:39]: "Do not stray after your hearts and eyes, which have led you to immorality" - i.e., each one of you should not follow his limited powers of understanding and think that he has comprehended the truth.

Our Sages [interpreted this warning]: "After your hearts," this refers to heresy; "after your eyes," this refers to immorality. This prohibition - though [severe,] causing a person to be prevented [from attaining a portion] in the world to come - is not punishable by lashes.

Halacha 4

The commandment [forbidding] the worship of false gods is equivalent to all the mitzvot, as [implied by Numbers 15:22]: "Lest you err and not perform all the mitzvot...." The oral tradition teaches that the verse refers to the worship of false gods. Thus, we learn that anyone who acknowledges a false god denies the entire Torah in its totality, all the works of the prophets, and everything that has been commanded to the prophets from Adam, [the first man,] until eternity, as [Numbers 15:23] continues: "...from the day God issued His commandments and afterwards, for your future generations."

[Conversely,] anyone who denies the worship of false gods acknowledges the entire Torah in its totality, all the works of the prophets, and everything that has been commanded to the prophets from Adam, [the first man,] until eternity. [This acknowledgement] is fundamental to all of the mitzvot.

Halacha 5

A Jew who serves false gods is considered like a gentile in all regards and is not comparable to a Jew who violated another transgression punishable by being stoned to death. An apostate who worships false gods is considered to be an apostate with regard to the entire Torah.

Similarly, Jewish minnim are not considered to be Jews with regard to any matter. Their repentance should never be accepted, as [implied by Proverbs 2:19]: "None that go to her repent, nor will they regain the paths of life."

The minnim are those who stray after the thoughts of their hearts, concerning themselves with the foolish matters mentioned above, until they ultimately transgress against the body of Torah [law] arrogantly, with scorn, with the intent of provoking God's anger, and yet say that there is no sin involved.

It is forbidden to talk to them or to reply to them at all, as [Proverbs 5:8] states: "Do not come close to her door." [It can be assumed that] a min's thoughts are concerned with false gods.

Halacha 6

Whoever accepts a false god as true, even when he does not actually worship it, disgraces and blasphemes [God's] glorious and awesome name. This applies both to one who worships false gods and to one who curses God's name [as is obvious from Numbers 15:30]: "If a person commits [an act of idolatry] highhandedly, whether he be a native born [Jew] or a convert, he is blaspheming God."

Therefore, a person who worships false gods is to be hanged, just as one who blasphemes against God is hanged. Both are executed by being stoned to death. Therefore, I have included the laws applying to a blasphemer in Hilchot Avodat Kochavim. Both deny the fundamental principle [of Jewish faith].

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You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

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Re: Should a Jew believe in reincarnation?
« Reply #3 on: November 22, 2013, 03:11:06 AM »
Now that I think about it the Talmud does refer to what may be called 'out of body' experiences... Although I am not sure if that is what the Rabbis you listen to talked about...

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline edu

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Re: Should a Jew believe in reincarnation?
« Reply #4 on: November 22, 2013, 06:41:11 AM »
The concept of reincarnation is an issue subject to dispute among Jewish scholars.
Some like Rabbi Saadia Gaon completely reject it, others like Ramban seem to support the idea.

Offline Sveta

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Re: Should a Jew believe in reincarnation?
« Reply #5 on: November 23, 2013, 10:41:52 PM »
I completely believe in Gilgul. It explains everything. But I admit that it's completely rejected by some people as "Gentile traditions" to others just "made up".

But solid Torah scholars back it up. The Vilna Gaon, the Baal Shem Tov, Rambam and Rambam. The Ari.

I respect those who do not, they have their points but I personally believe in this.

Offline Ephraim Ben Noach

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Re: Should a Jew believe in reincarnation?
« Reply #6 on: November 23, 2013, 10:54:29 PM »
I completely believe in Gilgul. It explains everything. But I admit that it's completely rejected by some people as "Gentile traditions" to others just "made up".

But solid Torah scholars back it up. The Vilna Gaon, the Baal Shem Tov, Rambam and Rambam. The Ari.

I respect those who do not, they have their points but I personally believe in this.
It has to be true, if not... The Torah would be wrong, G-d said only so many people will join him. If new souls were constantly being born, than the Torah was wrong...
Ezekiel 33:6 But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the horn, and the people be not warned, and the sword do come, and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity, but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand.

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

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Re: Should a Jew believe in reincarnation?
« Reply #7 on: November 23, 2013, 11:19:13 PM »
I completely believe in Gilgul. It explains everything. But I admit that it's completely rejected by some people as "Gentile traditions" to others just "made up".

But solid Torah scholars back it up. The Vilna Gaon, the Baal Shem Tov, Rambam and Rambam. The Ari.

I respect those who do not, they have their points but I personally believe in this.

 Rambam and Rambam ? Really? Where? It is usually said to the opposite of the Rambam.

 It is mainly a much later phenomena and not mentioned by the early authorities.
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline muman613

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Re: Should a Jew believe in reincarnation?
« Reply #8 on: November 23, 2013, 11:36:51 PM »
Rambam and Rambam ? Really? Where? It is usually said to the opposite of the Rambam.

 It is mainly a much later phenomena and not mentioned by the early authorities.

I think we can assume she meant the Ramban...

Although not mentioned, it was discussed in some of the mystical sources.

I too do not believe that it is important to understand how it works, as long as we do not attempt to speak with the dead or other forms of magic, we can learn from the concept of gilgulim that there is a larger purpose to our existence. That there is an ongoing mission for the souls of the Jewish nation, and the nations of the world, to rectify what went wrong after the fall of Eden.

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Sveta

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Re: Should a Jew believe in reincarnation?
« Reply #9 on: November 23, 2013, 11:41:29 PM »
Thanks Muman, I am sorry, It was just Ramban. I made an error in copying my info.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilgul#History_of_the_concept_of_Gilgul_in_Jewish_thought

Like I said before, I do believe in the Gilgul, but I respect those who don't. Hopefully they can respects those who do believe in it.