How Long do top Rabbis say Making(Humans) entered this earth for?

[christians4jews]

We all know that the Bible is completely compatable with its being the old earth with the "yom" and period of time, and gap theory.

But what about mankind, do the Top science literate Rabbis have a old earth but 6000 year old makind?

Just curious to know what is the Jewish take on the Origins of Mankind

Thanks

[kyel]

I'm not exactly sure if there are different opinions but the last Rabbi I heard speak about this said the world was already created old, just like Adam was born a grown man already.

[Dr. Dan]

Kyle gives one interpretation done rabbis make. And c4j makes another.

To both groups of rabbis believe Gd created all. That's all that matters. Not the how and when.

[kyel]

Kyle gives one interpretation done rabbis make. And c4j makes another.

To both groups of rabbis believe Gd created all. That's all that matters. Not the how and when.

In all respects, it does matter. If someone who believes that we magically came from 1 cell to a brain with 10 trillion connections and all the organs in the right place (and all the animals, dinosaurs and everything in between) you have to have an answer when they think you're crazy for believing the world is only ~6000 years old.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

A rabbi I am close with who is well versed in Torah and in science told me that it is very possible that adam harishon refers to civilized man..  some would want to lynch him (and me) for that, but he says he finds it is not incompatible with the sources and believe me he knows them all..

Edit:   lol I did not mean Noach but Adam harishon!   My mind must have been off in the wilderness

[christians4jews]

A rabbi I am close with who is well versed in Torah and in science told me that it is very possible that Noach refers to civilized man..  some would want to lynch him (and me) for that, but he says he finds it is not incompatible with the sources and believe me he knows them all..

elaborate please?

Also what do the Rabbis say about the creation event. Sun was created after plants which alot of sceptics say this coudldnt be. But Light was created i think on the first day. So could God have used the light to be able to utilise the plants before the sun was created?

Or should i look at the creation story at a more metaphorical level and not get bogged down with this.

Cheers

[Southern Noachide]

I'm probably in the minority on this site (which is, after all, mostly non-Charedi), but I myself and a literalist "young earth creationist" who accepts the genealogies and events of Parashat Bere'shis and Parashat Noach as every bit as real and historical as the events recorded in the rest of the Torah.  I could be wrong, but this is my personal belief.

The traditional chronology is in the Seder `Olam and it is explicated in many books, such as Toledot `Am `Olam by Rabbi Shlomo Rotenberg [zt"l] and in more popular works such as Bible Basics edited by Jerome S. Hahn.  I believe Rabbi Moshe Meiselman has also written a very intricate book responding to critics of the science of the Torah and CHaZa"L.

But here's the bottom line: the secrets and details of Ma`asei Bere'shis are esoteric and are confided to few and may be expounded to no more than two persons at once.  The people who know these secrets aren't going to broadcast them, and anyone shouting his opinions on this matter (including me) do not know these secrets.

[Israel Chai]

The world was created old, and it was there longer than 5774 years. I don't know how long the "days" of creation were, but even then it already says the earth was there and void and without form, so add how long it was there as a void, and the days, and that's how old.

The light that was there was put aside with the light of the sun, and the Rabbis teach that the light will be to "reward the righteous" in the world to come, and before you die, you get a glimpse of it.

[Manch]

I believe in a theory of Dr. Gerald Schroeder in which he advocates that the Universe (not Earth) was created in 6 days.  The world may be young and old simultaneously. There is a caveat, for you to discover if you read the link and have a basic understanding of physics, astronomy and open mind.

Dr. Gerald Schroeder is a religious Jew, physicist and academic, living in Israel, author of very interesting books, so his opinion matters. You can find his books on Amazon, for example "God according to God" . I am attaching a link to his article that blew me away when I read it about 13 years ago.

Age of the Universe Age by Dr. Gerald Schroeder
http://www.aish.com/ci/sam/48951136.html

Read it - if you don't walk away amazed at the simplicity and logic of his explanation of the 6,000 year old Universe, I'd be surprised. Bottom line - there is no contradiction between Torah and the Science. Surprised?

[kyel]

Talmud Chaggiga 13b-14a states that there were 974 generations before God created Adam.

[syyuge]

I believe in a theory of Dr. Gerald Schroeder in which he advocates that the Universe (not Earth) was created in 6 days.  The world may be young and old simultaneously. There is a caveat, for you to discover if you read the link and have a basic understanding of physics, astronomy and open mind.

Dr. Gerald Schroeder is a religious Jew, physicist and academic, living in Israel, author of very interesting books, so his opinion matters. You can find his books on Amazon, for example "God according to God" . I am attaching a link to his article that blew me away when I read it about 13 years ago.

Age of the Universe Age by Dr. Gerald Schroeder
http://www.aish.com/ci/sam/48951136.html

Read it - if you don't walk away amazed at the simplicity and logic of his explanation of the 6,000 year old Universe, I'd be surprised. Bottom line - there is no contradiction between Torah and the Science. Surprised?

That was the nearest thing I could find. Earlier I too was thinking that there had to be two scales of the time, but never expected it to be so accurate. BTW this also resolves my puzzle that why it was only 6 days and why not randomly said as 4 or 900 days.

[Southern Noachide]

Talmud Chaggiga 13b-14a states that there were 974 generations before God created Adam.

And they rushed forward to be created, but they were not created, and these of the brazen of every generation.

Or something like that.

[muman613]

Here is the translation of the Gemara you posted, Talmud Chagigah 13b-14a

http://halakhah.com/rst/moed/23%20-%20Chagigah%20-%202a-27a.pdf

There is no contradiction: the one43 refers to a time when the Temple was standing, and the other refers to a time when the Temple was no longer standing; [when] as it were, the heavenly household44 was diminished. It is taught: Rabbi said in the name of Abba Jose b. Dosai: ‘Thousand thousands ministered unto ‘Him’, — this is the number of one troop; but of His troops there is no number. But Jeremiah b. Aba said: ‘Thousand thousand ministered unto Him’ — at the fiery stream,45 for it is said: A fiery stream issued and came forth from before Him; thousand thousands ministered unto Him and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before Him.41 Whence does it come forth? —

From the sweat of the ‘living creatures’, And whither does it pour forth? R. Zutra b. Tobiah said that Rab said: Upon the head of the wicked in Gehinnom,46 for it is said: Behold, a storm of the Lord is gone forth in fury,47 yea, a whirling storm; it shall whirl upon the head of the wicked.48 But R. Aha b. Jacob said: Upon those who pressed forward,49 for it is said: Who pressed forward50 before their time, whose foundation was poured out as a stream.51 It is taught: R. Simeon the Pious said: These are the nine hundred and seventy four generations who pressed themselves forward to be created52before the world was created, but were not created: the Holy One, blessed be He, arose and planted them1 in every generation, and it is they who are the insolent2 of each generation. But R. Nahman b. Isaac said: The words, Asher Kummetu,3 indicate blessing: these are the scholars who wrinkle themselves4 over the words of the Torah in this world, [wherefore] the Holy One, blessed  be He, shall reveal a secret to them in the world to come, for it is said: ‘To whom a secret5 is poured out as a stream’.

Samuel said to R. Hiyya b. Rab: O son of a great man,6 come, I will tell thee something from those excellent things which thy father has said. Every day ministering angels are created from the fiery stream, and utter song, and cease to be,7 for it is said: They are new every morning: great is Thy faithfulness.8 Now he differs from R. Samuel b. Nahmani, for R. Samuel b. Nahmani said that R. Jonathan said: From every utterance that goes forth from the mouth of the Holy One, blessed be He, an angel is created,9 for it is said: By the word of the Lord were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of His mouth.10 One verse says: His raiment was as white as snow, and the hair of his head like pure wool;11 and [elsewhere] it
is written: His locks are curled and black as a raven!12 —

[Manch]

And they rushed forward to be created, but they were not created, and these of the brazen of every generation.

Or something like that.

I know, when I read this article, I got goosebumps. This is very accurate chronology and logical, IMO. The naysayers would say - 6 days yeah? The whole Universe? Sure, keep believing this fairytale. And I say yeah, precisely 6 days. The ~ 15.75 Billion age of our Universe proves it. 

[kyel]

Here is the translation of the Gemara you posted, Talmud Chagigah 13b-14a

http://halakhah.com/rst/moed/23%20-%20Chagigah%20-%202a-27a.pdf

There is no contradiction: the one43 refers to a time when the Temple was standing, and the other refers to a time when the Temple was no longer standing; [when] as it were, the heavenly household44 was diminished. It is taught: Rabbi said in the name of Abba Jose b. Dosai: ‘Thousand thousands ministered unto ‘Him’, — this is the number of one troop; but of His troops there is no number. But Jeremiah b. Aba said: ‘Thousand thousand ministered unto Him’ — at the fiery stream,45 for it is said: A fiery stream issued and came forth from before Him; thousand thousands ministered unto Him and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before Him.41 Whence does it come forth? —

From the sweat of the ‘living creatures’, And whither does it pour forth? R. Zutra b. Tobiah said that Rab said: Upon the head of the wicked in Gehinnom,46 for it is said: Behold, a storm of the Lord is gone forth in fury,47 yea, a whirling storm; it shall whirl upon the head of the wicked.48 But R. Aha b. Jacob said: Upon those who pressed forward,49 for it is said: Who pressed forward50 before their time, whose foundation was poured out as a stream.51 It is taught: R. Simeon the Pious said: These are the nine hundred and seventy four generations who pressed themselves forward to be created52before the world was created, but were not created: the Holy One, blessed be He, arose and planted them1 in every generation, and it is they who are the insolent2 of each generation. But R. Nahman b. Isaac said: The words, Asher Kummetu,3 indicate blessing: these are the scholars who wrinkle themselves4 over the words of the Torah in this world, [wherefore] the Holy One, blessed  be He, shall reveal a secret to them in the world to come, for it is said: ‘To whom a secret5 is poured out as a stream’.

Samuel said to R. Hiyya b. Rab: O son of a great man,6 come, I will tell thee something from those excellent things which thy father has said. Every day ministering angels are created from the fiery stream, and utter song, and cease to be,7 for it is said: They are new every morning: great is Thy faithfulness.8 Now he differs from R. Samuel b. Nahmani, for R. Samuel b. Nahmani said that R. Jonathan said: From every utterance that goes forth from the mouth of the Holy One, blessed be He, an angel is created,9 for it is said: By the word of the Lord were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of His mouth.10 One verse says: His raiment was as white as snow, and the hair of his head like pure wool;11 and [elsewhere] it
is written: His locks are curled and black as a raven!12 —

I read before that some Rabbis interpret this as a suggestion that there was a long period of time on the earth (and life) before Adam was created. It would have been wiser to read the whole text first and check the source better.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/jewsevolution.html

[muman613]

Rabbi Yitzak HaKohen Kook, of blessed memory, wrote an amazing article on this topic for the portion of Noach...

http://ravkooktorah.org/NOAH60.htm


Noah: The Age of the Universe

Contradictions between science and Torah appear particularly irreconcilable with respect to the Torah's description of the creation of the world and the beginnings of mankind. Are these accounts meant to be taken literally? Should we believe that the universe came into existence some 5,760 years ago? Must we reject the theory of evolution out of hand?

In a letter written in Jaffa in 1905, Rav Kook responded to questions concerning evolution and the geological age of the world. He put forth four basic arguments:

1. Even to the ancients, it was well known that there were many periods that preceded our counting of nearly six thousand years for the current era. According to the Midrash (Bereishit Rabbah 3:7), "God built worlds and destroyed them," before He created the universe as we know it. Even more astonishing, the Zohar (Vayikra 10a) states that there existed other species of human beings besides the 'Adam' who is mentioned in the Torah.

2. We must be careful not to regard current scientific theories as proven facts, even if they are widely accepted. Scientists are constantly raising new ideas, and all of the scientific explanations of our time may very well come to be laughed at in the future as imaginative drivel.

3. The fundamental belief of the Torah is that God created and governs the universe. The means and methods by which He acts, regardless of their complexity, are all tools of God, Whose wisdom is infinite. Sometimes we specifically mention these intermediate processes, and sometimes we simply say, 'God formed' or 'God created.'

For example, the Torah writes about "the house that King Solomon built" (I Kings 6:2). The Torah does not go into the details of Solomon speaking with his advisors, who in turn instructed the architects, who gave the plans to the craftsmen, who managed and organized the actual building by the workers. It is enough to say, 'Solomon built.' The rest is understood, and is not important. So too, if God created life via the laws of evolution, these are details irrelevant to the Torah's central message, namely, the ethical teaching of a world formed and governed by an involved Creator.

4. The Torah concealed much with regard to the process of creation, speaking in parables and ciphers. Creation — which the mystics refer to as Ma'aseh Bereishit — clearly belongs to the esoteric part of Torah (see Chaggigah 11b). If the Torah's account of creation is meant to be understood literally, what then are its profound secrets? If everything is openly revealed, what is left to be explained in the future?

God limits revelations, even from the most brilliant and holiest prophets, according to the ability of that generation to absorb the information. For every idea and concept, there is significance to the hour of its disclosure. For example, if knowledge of the rotation of the Earth on its axis and around the sun had been revealed to primitive man, his courage and initiative may have been severely retarded by fear of falling. Why attempt to build tall buildings on top of an immense ball turning and whizzing through space at high velocity? Only after a certain intellectual maturity, and scientific understanding about gravity and other compensating forces, was humanity ready for this knowledge.

The same is true regarding spiritual and moral ideas. The Jewish people struggled greatly to explain the concept of Divine providence to the pagan world. This was not an easy idea to market. Of what interest should the actions of an insignificant human be to the Creator of the universe? Belief in the transcendental importance of our actions is a central principle in Judaism, and was disseminated throughout the world by her daughter religions. But if mankind had already been aware of the true dimensions of the cosmos, and the relatively tiny world that we inhabit, could this fundamental concept of Torah have had any chance in spreading? Only now, that we have greater confidence in our power and control over the forces of nature, is awareness of the grandiose scale of the universe not an impediment to these fundamental ethical values.

To summarize:

* Ancient Jewish sources also refer to worlds that existed prior to the current era of six thousand years.

* One should not assume that the latest scientific theories are eternal truths.

* The purpose of the Torah is a practical one — to have a positive moral influence on humanity, and not to serve as a primer for physicists and biologists. It could very well be that evolution, etc., are the tools by which God created the world.

* Some ideas are intentionally kept hidden, as the world may not be ready for them, either psychologically or morally.

[muman613]

Also read this Aish page to get all the details on this aspect of figuring the age of creation.

http://www.aish.com/tp/i/moha/48931772.html

[Southern Noachide]

I know, when I read this article, I got goosebumps. This is very accurate chronology and logical, IMO. The naysayers would say - 6 days yeah? The whole Universe? Sure, keep believing this fairytale. And I say yeah, precisely 6 days. The ~ 15.75 Billion age of our Universe proves it.

While I am appreciative of the support, Manch, I'm afraid you may be misunderstanding me.  I do not hold with Schroeder's theory nor find it necessary.  I do not find any form of concordism to be necessary.  Neither do I believe that science has any competence in the matter of a world that functioned differently from our own but believe rather that we must rely on Divine Revelation and Theology alone for this information--what is available.

As I said, Ma`asei Bereshis are known to certain people and they aren't going to tell the whole world.  Anyone who is telling the whole world does not know these secrets.  That means I don't know, you don't know, and Dr. Schroeder doesn't know.

It is best to stick with Torah and CHaZa"L on these issues rather than trying to solve non-existent problems by mixing them with uniformitarian science.

Yes, I know I'm in the minority here, and I said as much.  I am but a simple redneck.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

I read before that some Rabbis interpret this as a suggestion that there was a long period of time on the earth (and life) before Adam was created. It would have been wiser to read the whole text first and check the source better.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/jewsevolution.html

The kaballah definitely says that worlds were created and destroyed.    So how did that manifest physically?  Don't think anyone could really say for sure, could they?

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

While I am appreciative of the support, Manch, I'm afraid you may be misunderstanding me.  I do not hold with Schroeder's theory nor find it necessary.   I do not find any form of concordism to be necessary.  Neither do I believe that science has any competence in the matter of a world that functioned differently from our own

You have no proof of any such thing.  And no indication that Torah chronology was occurring in some parallel universe.

but believe rather that we must rely on Divine Revelation and Theology alone for this information--what is available.


As I said, Ma`asei Bereshis are known to certain people and they aren't going to tell the whole world. 

Mysterious messiah figures who only tell their cult followers?   Keep away from the kool aid

Yes, I know I'm in the minority here, and I said as much.  I am but a simple redneck.

And one who has no understanding of science, whose view is of no use to Manch, who does understand science.  Get it?

[Manch]

While I am appreciative of the support, Manch, I'm afraid you may be misunderstanding me.  I do not hold with Schroeder's theory nor find it necessary.  I do not find any form of concordism to be necessary.  Neither do I believe that science has any competence in the matter of a world that functioned differently from our own but believe rather that we must rely on Divine Revelation and Theology alone for this information--what is available.

As I said, Ma`asei Bereshis are known to certain people and they aren't going to tell the whole world.  Anyone who is telling the whole world does not know these secrets.  That means I don't know, you don't know, and Dr. Schroeder doesn't know.

It is best to stick with Torah and CHaZa"L on these issues rather than trying to solve non-existent problems by mixing them with uniformitarian science.

Yes, I know I'm in the minority here, and I said as much.  I am but a simple redneck.

I completely understand your opinion and respect it. I misunderstood it. As for myself, I am of scientific background and appreciate science supportive of Judaism.

[Dr. Dan]

In all respects, it does matter. If someone who believes that we magically came from 1 cell to a brain with 10 trillion connections and all the organs in the right place (and all the animals, dinosaurs and everything in between) you have to have an answer when they think you're crazy for believing the world is only ~6000 years old.

The bible is not a science book. The story of creation has much alagory in it and much of it should not be taken literally according to many rabbis. I'll give one example. The second and third day of creation.

The way it is written in the bible, the third day begins with finishing the second day. But if Gd is all powerful, why did He need an extra day to finish something??? Should we take it literally?  Is this blurb meant to be taken literally?  No, it's supposed to teach us a lesson. A moral lesson.

So scientists and literalists should take certain things in the bible literally. But only ask why things are written a certain way and what we can learn from them to live life.

[muman613]

I have been trying to avoid expressing my opinion here as I find this argument coming up from time to time and we have been through this before.

There must be a way to reconcile the 6 days of creation. You cannot just discard this concept and say it is all a metaphor for some esoteric idea. If you could then the whole basis of Judaism is shot from underneath us. We all know that there are two reasons for observing the Sabbath, the one day that the Torah repeatedly stresses is of utmost importance in recognizing Hashem and his power over all of creation. We say this in our blessings and our prayers, that Hashem created the world in six days, on on the seventh he rested.

This article explains some of what I am saying:

The Reason For Shabbos

The Rabbis tell us that while we cannot know the deepest thoughts of Hashem, we can know what Hashem tells us, through the Torah, about the Commandments.

Shabbos (the Sabbath), we are told (Mechilta d’Rashbi, Parshas Yisro) was given to us for several reasons, including the following two:

because Hashem created the world in six days and did no act of creation on the seventh day;
because of the Exodus from Egypt.
The two reasons cited above represent the two aspects of our existence, the physical and the spiritual. Shabbos offers us those same two types of benefit, the physical and the spiritual. Both are mentioned in the Torah, because both are underlying reasons for the Commandment to refrain from certain types of creative activities on Shabbos.

The Spiritual Aspect of Shabbos

In one place, the Torah says:

Do your work during the six weekdays, but keep the seventh day as a Sabbath of Sabbaths, holy to Hashem...The Israelites shall thus keep the Sabbath, making it a day of rest for all generations, as an eternal covenant. It is a sign between Me and the Israelites that during the six weekdays Hashem made heaven and earth, but on the seventh day He ceased working and “rested.”
— Exodus 31:15-17
.
.
.
Physical Rest

But the Torah also tells us,

You must remember that you were slaves in Egypt, when Hashem your G-d brought you out with a strong hand and an outstretched arm. It is for this reason that Hashem your G-d has commanded you to keep the Sabbath.

— Deuteronomy 5:15

If you can easily discount the story of creation there may be no reason to keep Sabbath, and you may also question whether the Exodus happened as the Torah relates, and commands us to relate the story on Passover. I have not seen any scientific proof that the Exodus happened, and I doubt anyone can produce any...

[Dr. Dan]

No need to prove the exodus since you can look at the Jewish people and we would die for our Gd. And how our laws are still intact and surviving as underdogs. Something momentous happened to our ancestors such as the splitting of the seas, that had caused us to stay Jewish and follow Torah even to rules which make no sense or difficult to follow versus converting.

So I disagree with your point.

If exodus happened, it doesn't mean that creation by Gd didn't happen. Did it happen in 6 days?  Does it matter if it took 6 trillion days?  Did Gd plant dinosaur bones in the ground to fool us?  Does it matter?  Will believing dinosaurs existed prior to humans and Adam and Eve make one a heretic to Judaism and therefore to Gd?  If you think so, then we have problems.

I do not believe that just because there were dinosaurs long before there was Adam and Eve, that Gd didn't create the universe. It just means when we read the story of creation, we have to dig a lot deeper to understand that who gives a blank if dinosaurs roamed here or not. That we should give a damn on morality, chesed, and justice.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

I have been trying to avoid expressing my opinion here as I find this argument coming up from time to time and we have been through this before.

There must be a way to reconcile the 6 days of creation.

Understanding it allegorically is one way of reconciling it.

You cannot just discard this concept and say it is all a metaphor for some esoteric idea. If you could then the whole basis of Judaism is shot from underneath us. 

First off, no one "discarded the concept."

Why can't people say it's a metaphor for an esoteric idea?  (rhetorical question.  They can).   Do you know how many things in the Torah are described as exactly that?

As for the basis of Judaism,
Open up a Moreh Nevuchim and you will see that the Rambam understands the "days" of creation as categories of creation, not as literal time periods.   The Rambam did not shoot Judaism.    So it seems that you are wrong.   You do not have to accept my view or anyone else's view, or even the Rambam's view.   But when you emphatically state that these other views different from yours are not acceptable, you are incorrect and lead others astray.

We all know that there are two reasons for observing the Sabbath, the one day that the Torah repeatedly stresses is of utmost importance in recognizing Hashem and his power over all of creation. We say this in our blessings and our prayers, that Hashem created the world in six days, on on the seventh he rested.

No one argued against this.

If you can easily discount the story of creation there may be no reason to keep Sabbath,

You call an allegorical reading as "discounting," but that's not what it is and not what it does.

If one did in fact "discount" the story of creation, they may lose some impetus to Sabbath observance, and yet they still might have reason to observe it.   But that's not really relevant because no one is discounting anything here.   

and you may also question whether the Exodus happened as the Torah relates, and commands us to relate the story on Passover. I have not seen any scientific proof that the Exodus happened, and I doubt anyone can produce any...

There is no logic to this.   There is basis for understanding the maaseh bereshith in a non-literal way.   There is not basis for allegorical understanding of the exodus.    Aside from that, these are two separate subjects - just because someone's view of genesis upsets you, do not accuse them of radical views of other subjects which they never even stated.

As for scientific proof of the Exodus, the problem is with the archaeological dating system, and it is a conspiracy btw, but again that's a whole separate topic.   There is some evidence of the exodus IMO but no not "Scientific proof" as there is almost no scientific proof of any historical event beyond a certain date.