jtf forum working on the Sabbath?

[Dexter]

Yes, breaking Sabbath (for a Jew) is worse than murder. Many people might not understand this but this is a very deep subject. Hashem rested on Shabbat and made it Holy. No one can cancel this or any of G-d's commandments.

If someone is a murderer but they keep Shabbat, they can still be a part of a minion.

But if they don't keep Shabbat, they are not allowed to be a part of the minion and their Jewish status is actually questionable.

Please, Jewish people should NOT be posting here on Shabbat. I really discourage this because it is VERY wrong. Every Jewish person should be working on themselves and making effort towards this.

Even if a Jewish person does not keep Shabbat, G-d forbid, they should not be setting an example on the forum with this behavior.

Jeffguy, I respect you, but I disagree with you.

okay, but where do you get your basis and proof from?

From his mind, moral and his logic .

[Dr. Dan]

Yes, breaking Sabbath (for a Jew) is worse than murder. Many people might not understand this but this is a very deep subject. Hashem rested on Shabbat and made it Holy. No one can cancel this or any of G-d's commandments.

If someone is a murderer but they keep Shabbat, they can still be a part of a minion.

But if they don't keep Shabbat, they are not allowed to be a part of the minion and their Jewish status is actually questionable.

Please, Jewish people should NOT be posting here on Shabbat. I really discourage this because it is VERY wrong. Every Jewish person should be working on themselves and making effort towards this.

Even if a Jewish person does not keep Shabbat, G-d forbid, they should not be setting an example on the forum with this behavior.

Jeffguy, I respect you, but I disagree with you.

okay, but where do you get your basis and proof from?

I dont' disagree with the first statement that it is a deep subject. Obviously if it is ruled by the rabbis that "Yes, breaking Sabbath (for a Jew) is worse than murder."  Then I am incapable of understanding that rule until I study with a learned person and ask several rabbis to explain this statement. In my current way of thinking, this does not make one bit of sense. It sounds terribly ridiculous that breaking the Sabbath for a Jew is worse than murder. If this is a true Torah Jewish decree, I need to seriously have a talk with the rabbis because this statement can be used in an evil way against one's fellow brother he might not keep shabbat the same way another Jew might keep it.

Likewise, many decrees made by wise men back in the day about shabbat are fences to prevent one to be tempted to do business or light a flame, for example.  IN other words, some Jews build fences 10 miles away from the Torah while others build their's 2 feet away from the Torah.  It's these technicalities which worry me as a Jew and human being.  

Therefore, I need to examine this decree further...but as long as I don't understand what this means, don't care who said it and when they said it, but as i understand it, murder is worse than if a Jew were to violate Shabbat...not vice versa...and I don't recommend any religious or non religious Jew to use that against his brethren!

[Dr. Dan]

Yes, breaking Sabbath (for a Jew) is worse than murder. Many people might not understand this but this is a very deep subject. Hashem rested on Shabbat and made it Holy. No one can cancel this or any of G-d's commandments.

If someone is a murderer but they keep Shabbat, they can still be a part of a minion.

But if they don't keep Shabbat, they are not allowed to be a part of the minion and their Jewish status is actually questionable.

Please, Jewish people should NOT be posting here on Shabbat. I really discourage this because it is VERY wrong. Every Jewish person should be working on themselves and making effort towards this.

Even if a Jewish person does not keep Shabbat, G-d forbid, they should not be setting an example on the forum with this behavior.

Jeffguy, I respect you, but I disagree with you.

okay, but where do you get your basis and proof from?

From his mind, moral and his logic .

I will repeat on this basis of the arguement: "A Jew to violate Shabbat is worse than murder"

One can canclude to the following evil deeds:

1. Murder someone innocent and hide the evidence and walking around observing a strict sabbath like nothing happened.
2. Advocate the murder of an innocent non-shomer shabbat Jew because he didn't follow Shabbat
3. That if one were to be in a scenario where he had the choice of losing his life unless he took the life of a non shomer shabbat Jew.
4. That if one were to be in a scenario where he had a choice of being killed versus purposely lighting a match for 2 seconds every Saturday (and that's it), he would take his own life.
5. To treat his fellow Jew who is not shomer shabbat or simply practices shabbat in a different manner than himself in disdain thereby violating the other commandment of loving thy neighbor.
6. To cause a mentally unstable Jew who is not shomer shabbat to feel guilty about not practicing shabbat properly and taking his own life since, after all, his own life is not worth it if he doing somethign considered to be "worse than murder".

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

okay, then start learning, and then when you get the right knowledge write down and correct people when they make a mistake, you cant say I feel this way + I didnt learn enough about the subject so I have my own different opinion. We are not stating opinion we are stating fact, it would be wise to read it, investigate it (by learning Torah), and change ones ways once we see that it is correct.

[Dexter]

Chazal said :
דרך ארץ קדמה לתורה
"The way of the land comes befor the Torah" = manners, honor, integrity, honestly (..etc') are more importent than the Torah .
Therefor, I think that the Shabbat is not like a murder because a murder is immoral, and it's against the "The way of the land" and the Shabbat is from the Torah .

That is at least the way I understand it .

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

Yes, breaking Sabbath (for a Jew) is worse than murder. Many people might not understand this but this is a very deep subject. Hashem rested on Shabbat and made it Holy. No one can cancel this or any of G-d's commandments.

If someone is a murderer but they keep Shabbat, they can still be a part of a minion.

But if they don't keep Shabbat, they are not allowed to be a part of the minion and their Jewish status is actually questionable.

Please, Jewish people should NOT be posting here on Shabbat. I really discourage this because it is VERY wrong. Every Jewish person should be working on themselves and making effort towards this.

Even if a Jewish person does not keep Shabbat, G-d forbid, they should not be setting an example on the forum with this behavior.

Jeffguy, I respect you, but I disagree with you.

okay, but where do you get your basis and proof from?

From his mind, moral and his logic .

I will repeat on this basis of the arguement: "A Jew to violate Shabbat is worse than murder"

One can canclude to the following evil deeds:

1. Murder someone innocent and hide the evidence and walking around observing a strict sabbath like nothing happened.
2. Advocate the murder of an innocent non-shomer shabbat Jew because he didn't follow Shabbat
3. That if one were to be in a scenario where he had the choice of losing his life unless he took the life of a non shomer shabbat Jew.
4. That if one were to be in a scenario where he had a choice of being killed versus purposely lighting a match for 2 seconds every Saturday (and that's it), he would take his own life.
5. To treat his fellow Jew who is not shomer shabbat or simply practices shabbat in a different manner than himself in disdain thereby violating the other commandment of loving thy neighbor.
6. To cause a mentally unstable Jew who is not shomer shabbat to feel guilty about not practicing shabbat properly and taking his own life since, after all, his own life is not worth it if he doing somethign considered to be "worse than murder".

#1- #4- you are right, and we cannot do that. #5 is tricky. and #6- someone who is mentally unstable is free from the Mitzvot he or she doesnt have to follow them, + the purpose of me and anyone else writing these warning's to the public here is to show the seriousness of this sin and to hopefully convice and help people not to do it. And no one is advocating them to commit suicide (which would be even worse for them, but to change their ways and G-d willing repent). - actually it would be wronge not to warn someone and have them commit spiritual suicide which is a lot worse.

[Dexter]

Yes, breaking Sabbath (for a Jew) is worse than murder. Many people might not understand this but this is a very deep subject. Hashem rested on Shabbat and made it Holy. No one can cancel this or any of G-d's commandments.

If someone is a murderer but they keep Shabbat, they can still be a part of a minion.

But if they don't keep Shabbat, they are not allowed to be a part of the minion and their Jewish status is actually questionable.

Please, Jewish people should NOT be posting here on Shabbat. I really discourage this because it is VERY wrong. Every Jewish person should be working on themselves and making effort towards this.

Even if a Jewish person does not keep Shabbat, G-d forbid, they should not be setting an example on the forum with this behavior.

Jeffguy, I respect you, but I disagree with you.

okay, but where do you get your basis and proof from?

From his mind, moral and his logic .

I will repeat on this basis of the arguement: "A Jew to violate Shabbat is worse than murder"

One can canclude to the following evil deeds:

1. Murder someone innocent and hide the evidence and walking around observing a strict sabbath like nothing happened.
2. Advocate the murder of an innocent non-shomer shabbat Jew because he didn't follow Shabbat
3. That if one were to be in a scenario where he had the choice of losing his life unless he took the life of a non shomer shabbat Jew.
4. That if one were to be in a scenario where he had a choice of being killed versus purposely lighting a match for 2 seconds every Saturday (and that's it), he would take his own life.
5. To treat his fellow Jew who is not shomer shabbat or simply practices shabbat in a different manner than himself in disdain thereby violating the other commandment of loving thy neighbor.
6. To cause a mentally unstable Jew who is not shomer shabbat to feel guilty about not practicing shabbat properly and taking his own life since, after all, his own life is not worth it if he doing somethign considered to be "worse than murder".

#1- #4- you are right, and we cannot do that. #5 is tricky. and #6- someone who is mentally unstable is free from the Mitzvot he or she doesnt have to follow them, + the purpose of me and anyone else writing these warning's to the public here is to show the seriousness of this sin and to hopefully convice and help people not to do it. And no one is advocating them to commit suicide (which would be even worse for them, but to change their ways and G-d willing repent). - actually it would be wronge not to warn someone and have them commit spiritual suicide which is a lot worse.

Tzvi, I don't know why, but if Jeffguy's statment is true about Judaism :
"If someone is a murderer but they keep Shabbat, they can still be a part of a minion."
Than I just have no enough words to express what I think about it .

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

Please, Jewish people should NOT be posting here on Shabbat. I really discourage this because it is VERY wrong. Every Jewish person should be working on themselves and making effort towards this.

Even if a Jewish person does not keep Shabbat, G-d forbid, they should not be setting an example on the forum with this behavior.

I agree with this statement. I too believe in the great importance and value of Sabbath keeping, may Moshiach come soon.
Of course, if I know a Jew does not keep the Sabbath (although it bothers me somewhat) I dont judge or say anything to them, I just hope that one day they will find spirituality and STRENGTH to keep Shabbos. It's easy not to keep Shabbos and easy not keep Kosher but it takes strenght, love and spirituality to keep these blessings. Plus to me, the easy way is NOT always the right way!

(ok it used to bother so much that a while ago I stoped e-mailing a Jewish lady who became a "Catholic convert"  because she kept e-mailing me on Saturday morning after I kept asking her not to!) But since then I have become less judgemental.

Its not about being judgemtal, its about warning the public. Every Jew has an obligation to warn his Jewish friends/ peers, etc. about the seriourness of the Torah and the damage of the transgressions. If people are on this board or anywhere else and they see views contrary to the Torah you have an obligation to protest it, if you dont Hazal say that you are also responsible for the sins. (up to a point,- which is where they yell at you then you arent obligated any longer). + if you love them wouldnt you want them to earn Olam Haba and not suffer from the transgressions they make?

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

Dexter listin to http://divineinformation.com/downloads/default.asp - the video Divineinformation it is in Hebrew (with English Subtitles). After the video if you can deny Judaism please tell me possibly how.

[Dr. Dan]

Please, Jewish people should NOT be posting here on Shabbat. I really discourage this because it is VERY wrong. Every Jewish person should be working on themselves and making effort towards this.

Even if a Jewish person does not keep Shabbat, G-d forbid, they should not be setting an example on the forum with this behavior.

I agree with this statement. I too believe in the great importance and value of Sabbath keeping, may Moshiach come soon.
Of course, if I know a Jew does not keep the Sabbath (although it bothers me somewhat) I dont judge or say anything to them, I just hope that one day they will find spirituality and STRENGTH to keep Shabbos. It's easy not to keep Shabbos and easy not keep Kosher but it takes strenght, love and spirituality to keep these blessings. Plus to me, the easy way is NOT always the right way!

(ok it used to bother so much that a while ago I stoped e-mailing a Jewish lady who became a "Catholic convert"  because she kept e-mailing me on Saturday morning after I kept asking her not to!) But since then I have become less judgemental.

Its not about being judgemtal, its about warning the public. Every Jew has an obligation to warn his Jewish friends/ peers, etc. about the seriourness of the Torah and the damage of the transgressions. If people are on this board or anywhere else and they see views contrary to the Torah you have an obligation to protest it, if you dont Hazal say that you are also responsible for the sins. (up to a point,- which is where they yell at you then you arent obligated any longer). + if you love them wouldnt you want them to earn Olam Haba and not suffer from the transgressions they make?

I still have an issue. Gd will hopefully forgive on Yom Kippur for transgressing on Shabbat...but if we murder, we're pretty much screwed...Tzvi and Jeffguy, it makes no sense the statement..however, I'll ask an orthodox torah jewish rabbi about this to try to explain to me what your statement means.

[Dexter]

Dexter listin to http://divineinformation.com/downloads/default.asp - the video Divineinformation it is in Hebrew (with English Subtitles). After the video if you can deny Judaism please tell me possibly how.

I'm downloading it .

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

another very relevent shiur for this topic-

 Pinchas Gan Eden Baal Teshuva  - in (the bottom)
http://www.torahanytime.com/rav_mizrachi.html

from about 1 hour (a little before and onward).- Im reviewing the lecture and see that its very relevent to this topic.

[Dexter]

Dexter listin to http://divineinformation.com/downloads/default.asp - the video Divineinformation it is in Hebrew (with English Subtitles). After the video if you can deny Judaism please tell me possibly how.

Which part is about our discussion ?
It's taking very long time to download it, I watched part 1 and it's about the Q. "who is a Jew" and about Christianey and Islam .

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

Dexter listin to http://divineinformation.com/downloads/default.asp - the video Divineinformation it is in Hebrew (with English Subtitles). After the video if you can deny Judaism please tell me possibly how.

Which part is about our discussion ?
It's taking very long time to download it, I watched part 1 and it's about the Q. "who is a Jew" and about Christianey and Islam .

actually its about proving why the Torah can only be divine. Since its divine- and once you will see, then you cant bring any proof contrary to it, - the real question I see here is- iis the Torah Divine or just another book. If you belive its Divine then how can you argue against it- if you agree (and actually see why) that its Divine then how can anyone here or anywhere not agree and go against it?

[Dexter]

Dexter listin to http://divineinformation.com/downloads/default.asp - the video Divineinformation it is in Hebrew (with English Subtitles). After the video if you can deny Judaism please tell me possibly how.

Which part is about our discussion ?
It's taking very long time to download it, I watched part 1 and it's about the Q. "who is a Jew" and about Christianey and Islam .

actually its about proving why the Torah can only be divine. Since its divine- and once you will see, then you cant bring any proof contrary to it, - the real question I see here is- iis the Torah Divine or just another book. If you belive its Divine then how can you argue against it- if you agree (and actually see why) that its Divine then how can anyone here or anywhere not agree and go against it?

Than you think that the people that violet the Shabbat should be dead
It isn't the point if the Torah is true or not, the point is :
-Does this punishment is moral and isn't A BIT out of proportions ?
-Does the statment that "If someone is a murderer but they keep Shabbat, they can still be a part of a minion." is true, is it morral and logical ?

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

Actually it has everything to do with accepting the Torah or not. If you accept then accept it 100% and dont say that I disagree with this or that Law. If you do not accept the Torah and have any doubts then listin to that lecture and see why the Torah is more valid then simple human logic and everyone who says "I think..."

[Dexter]

Tzvi -
You basiclly saying that we shouldn't think and act logicly befor we working acorrding a book that going to effect every espect of our live ?

That's insane !

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

Tzvi -
You basiclly saying that we shouldn't think and act logicly befor we working acorrding a book that going to effect every espect of our live ?

That's insane !

Im sorry you dont agree with me(yet), I understand why- because of the society you grew up around (I also have), but dont you ask yourself why you were created for? - I mean if you came to this earth do eat, sleep, have relations with women then you could have been a chimpanze- what does G-d need you here for. Of course a Jews life should revolve around THE BOOK  which is no other then the orders of G-d himself.

[JewishTeddyBear]

Anybody who says that it is worse for a Jew to violate the Sabbath than it is for him to murder his fellow human being, is distorting Judaism in such a perverted, disgusting way, that by making this statement, he is committing a major desecration of G-d's name, which in itself is considered one of the worst crimes that a Jew can commit.

Murder is the worst act that one can possibly commit.  That is really the beginning, middle, and ending of this issue.

[jdl4ever]

I still say that murdering someone is worse than violating the Sabbath (and Jeffguy and Tzvi is wrong) since you are permitted to violate the  Sabbath to save someone's life but if someone tells you to murder someone or he'll kill you then you are obligated to give your own life rather than murder. 

As for the saying that one who violates the Sabbath isn't in G-d's minion but a murderer is, please tell me the source of this as it does sound familiar.  Anyways, this has NOTHING to do with the current argument (you are all being tricked) since there are certain commandments  (3 I think) that if one violates is not considered in G-d's covenent like Circumsision, Violating the Sabbath and Worshipping Idols.  This is a Chok.  It has nothing to do with the severity of violating the commandment as you all wrongly thought.  How do you know this?  Violating the commandment for Circumsision or violating the Sabbath is not comparable to murdering someone in severity as indicated by the above argument.  Also given that one is not executed for not being circumsized as one is for worshipping idols and for violating the Sabbath proves that the listing has nothing to do with the severity of violating the commandment.  Given that the 3 are not equal in severity and there are other commandments of equal severity not listed as making one not part of the covenent, this rule has nothing to do with the severity of the action and such information can not be derived as this rule is simply a Chok transmitted from Sinai with no logical reason.

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

As for the saying that one who violates the Sabbath isn't in G-d's minion but a murderer is, please tell me the source of this as it does sound familiar. 

http://www.torahanytime.com/rav_mizrachi.html
Pinchas Gan Eden Baal Teshuva  (amoung other places I have heard), a little before 1 hour into the lecture).

[Dr. Dan]

I went to two orthodox rabbis...torah loving orthodox rabbis who are religious nationalist types...and they were baffled and never heard of such a thing...


but i will give my two sense about murderers and shabbat violators...if such a quote exists by many many rabbis, I can gaurantee you that it is meant as a metaphor.

My friends, Shabbat is supposed to be a beautiful thing...One who chooses not to observe it who is Jewish is also harming himself.  The way one chooses to find peace on the 7th day however will be different from another person.  The way one decides to build his fences will be different from another less or more observant person..therefore, although it might be a metaphor to say that a shabbat violator who is Jewish is doing worse than murder....it's wrong to say such things to non observant Jews...you turn them off to Torah when yo usay things like that!  and you do far more harm than good..think before you speak such crazy things..and udnerstand why are you are saying and rationalize that you are talking to othe rhuman beings who are beginning to learn torah.  It's a very ugly statement to say that someone like me who doesn't mean to violate shabbat and happens to not be as "high and mighty" and as observant as you as worse than a murderer, Tzvi!  Think...we are brethren...when you say things like this to someone who not as understanding as me, they will take the Torah scroll and Gd forbid burn it because of what you just said!

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

 The way one chooses to find peace on the 7th day however will be different from another person. 

Read my post correctly I said in some aspects.

And about your statement- Im sorry that is complete heresy. Even though you seem like I nice guy and I might be tempted to say that okay you are right or whatever, no Jew who knows the truth is allowed to even give a hint that you are right is what you just said. You talked to a Rav- so you should ask him more importantly how you should keep Shabb-t, and not make your own ideas based on nothing (or even so called logical intentions).

[JDL4EVER- STOP Making a Chillul Hashem by being nasty to your fellow Jews.  You're setting a very bad example by constantly defaming dannycookie and such tactics are unacceptable and only drive people away.]

[jdl4ever]

What do you expect us to do, we can't lie about what the Torah says.  The Torah says that if you violate the Sabbath you are to be stoned, we didn't make that up.  This is not to say we think that the not religious are evil and should be killed.  You are not held responsible if you did not have a proper Jewish education or upbringing and are not familiar with the Torah.  We are here to educate you. 

Tzvi Ben Roshel, I'm going to ban you if you continue making a Chillul Hashem by being nasty to your fellow Jews.

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

Tzvi Ben Roshel, I'm going to ban you if you continue making a Chillul Hashem by being nasty to your fellow Jews.

when was I nasty