Poll

Who Thinks I'm a lying, taqiyyah practicing muslim?

I do
6 (13%)
I don't
30 (65.2%)
I don't know & don't care
10 (21.7%)

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Author Topic: Who Thinks I'm a lying, taqiyyah practicing muslim?  (Read 32721 times)

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kellymaureen

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Re: Who Thinks I'm a lying, taqiyyah practicing muslim?
« Reply #175 on: October 12, 2007, 12:16:13 AM »
Why do I need to improve my debating skills, Ive read the koran, the haidth, the sura, every book Robert Spencer has written, Im perfectly capable of debating a muslim, and have on many occasions, however its a waste of time, either they tell me that Im the silly infidel and ive simply "misunderstood" or if they see I know too much call me an islamophobe and move on....I dont think debate will win the war on islam.
Anyway, I dont need to be on here to support the movement.
G-d love you.  You are funny.  Of course your debating skills are fabulous but you must remember that this entire silly thread wasn't because of you, but me.  You happened to have a similar experience with the same individual.  So if anyone will leave it will be me not you.  I'm not going anywhere because I support Jews, Jewry, Israel and righteous Gentiles.....  You do the same, so no need to get in a twist...  if you feel you've been wronged in anyway, have it out with that individual and be done with it.....  That's the way I feel.  One need never "sit idly by"... if you know what i mean?

Lol well acutally its not her fault, people will do things that are wrong, as long as they are left to get away with it, Ive said my piece....sorry Mar, I took over your thread...I am a big mouth infidel arent I....you can have it back now :laugh:

Offline jsullivan

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Re: Who Thinks I'm a lying, taqiyyah practicing muslim?
« Reply #176 on: October 12, 2007, 12:20:08 AM »
Wow Kelly, I really have to admire your principled stand. And you are 100% correct about the evil Islamic Nazi religion. The term "religion" is not necessarily a positive term, Kelly. Communism, Nazism and atheism are also "religions" in a sense. They are a set of beliefs, very evil beliefs but many people in history have worshipped at the altars of these false religions.

Kelly, JTF's position is clear: Islam is an utterly evil and monstrous Nazi religion that is committed to world conquest. There is no "moderate" or "peaceful" wing, branch or stream of Islam. As Chaim has said a million times, saying there are "moderate" Muslims is like saying there are "moderate" Nazis.

Your position on Islam is identical to the position of JTF and Chaim. But there are members of this forum who do not always agree with the positions of JTF and Chaim. Chaim does not believe in banning people who disagree with us unless they violate the rules of the forum. Chaim wants us to debate and persuade people, not ban them. There are two reasons for this policy: One, we have succeeded in many cases in changing people's minds about many issues and in making them see things more clearly. Two, even if we do not change certain people, it still sharpens our debating skills and makes the forum more interesting and provocative.

Kelly, you certainly should not leave. If there is any place where you belong, it is here! Sure, we are going have people whom we disagree with. But that's what we're here for, to change people for the better. Sometimes we succeed, sometimes we fail, but we always have to try to bring people the truth. If we're not going to convince more people and educate more people, then what's the purpose of JTF? We want to become a mass movement to save America and Israel. That can't happen unless we persuade large numbers of people to join us, including some people who have been misled and have mistaken views.

Offline MarZutra

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Re: Who Thinks I'm a lying, taqiyyah practicing muslim?
« Reply #177 on: October 12, 2007, 12:20:27 AM »
My thread?  I might have been the one responsible for this silly and lower than grade 5 venture but I certainly didn't create this thread... :-\
"‘Vehorashtem/Numbers 33:53’: When you burn out the Land’s inhabitants, you will merit to bestow upon your children the Land as an inheritance. If you do not burn them out, then even if you conquer the Land, you will not merit to allot it to your children as an inheritance." - Ovadiah ben Yacov Sforno; Italian Rabbi, Biblical Commentator, Philosopher and Physician.  1475-1550.

kellymaureen

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Re: Who Thinks I'm a lying, taqiyyah practicing muslim?
« Reply #178 on: October 12, 2007, 12:22:24 AM »
Lol I know, sorry the thread that was made because of you ;)

Offline MarZutra

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Re: Who Thinks I'm a lying, taqiyyah practicing muslim?
« Reply #179 on: October 12, 2007, 12:24:32 AM »
Jimmy is right.  You must consider this position.  Like I said to Yacov, I had a feeling this was going to be blown far out of proportion.....
"‘Vehorashtem/Numbers 33:53’: When you burn out the Land’s inhabitants, you will merit to bestow upon your children the Land as an inheritance. If you do not burn them out, then even if you conquer the Land, you will not merit to allot it to your children as an inheritance." - Ovadiah ben Yacov Sforno; Italian Rabbi, Biblical Commentator, Philosopher and Physician.  1475-1550.

kellymaureen

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Re: Who Thinks I'm a lying, taqiyyah practicing muslim?
« Reply #180 on: October 12, 2007, 12:29:48 AM »
I am all for debate and trying to get people to see the light,  however statements that were made, and we dont need to keep repeating them, cant be tolerated based on 'debate' and there comes a time when you need to take a honest and hard look at the situation and judge for yourself whether or not you are being taken for a ride, banging your head against the wall for nothing, no progress, or if there is genuine progress.  Mr Spencer uses the term " the mask slipped" alot in his writing, meaning if we take a good hard look at statements we can see the real meaning.....

Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

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Re: Who Thinks I'm a lying, taqiyyah practicing muslim?
« Reply #181 on: October 12, 2007, 12:34:20 AM »
Jimmy, it is time we get rid of Sarah.  We gave her an entire year to prove herself. She has proven she has not listened to a word Chaim has said.

Whether or not she would be persecuted by other Muslims is irrelevant. She has given us severe reason to doubt anything she has ever said to us and she is causing way too much division on this forum. If it is her or Kelly, she has to go.

Chaimfan

Offline Vito

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Re: Who Thinks I'm a lying, taqiyyah practicing muslim?
« Reply #182 on: October 12, 2007, 12:37:42 AM »
Ok, I'm convinced she's a Muslim.. get her the HELL OFF this forum!

Offline Ehud

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Re: Who Thinks I'm a lying, taqiyyah practicing muslim?
« Reply #183 on: October 12, 2007, 12:42:17 AM »
I will say that on another thread that I said I was horrified after reading the koran, sura and haidth (and I think anyone on this forum would be if they were being honest) and Sarah, you DID tell me that I "must have misunderstood the koran if I was horrified" because it was nothing more than a "bunch of fables and stories"...which is completely untrue, it is a book of war, with the end result being dar al islam. 
 I read with perfect comprehension, AND have the benefit of 2 ex muslim friends who assure me that this nonsense about us silly infidels "misunderstanding" the koran is ridiculous, that its something that muslims will tell us to keep us off guard or make us doubt what we are reading.
Only YOU can decide what you are, what you believe, but I assure you that I understood perfectly what I read, and I am still horrified at what I read.
Islam is a blood cult, its followers are terrorists, and mohammad was a disgusting pedophile, war lord, and the goal of islam is to have the entire world run by muslims under sharia law.  I will stand by these statements and be willing to leave the forum if the majority of people disagree with them. 
http://jtf.org/forum_english/index.php?topic=9305.msg92707#msg92707
is the thread in question

I will say that I sincerely hope that you do leave islam fully, and realize your full potential, with all the rights and freedoms that you are entitled to.


In all fairness, is it taqiyya if the person saying the things about Islam actually believes those things to be true?  Is it taqiyya when a person is taught these things, and it is all he knows, and he simply repeats them?  I think taqiyya has to involve active deception, not passive deception.  I don't think it can properly be considered taqiyya considering the fact that she is 15 and is probably taught these things and even believes them to be true, things like "Islam is peace".  In order for it to be taqiyya, she needs to KNOW that it's false, and lie about it in order to trick people.  But maybe not?  Is it still taqiyya if that person is taught these things because the ones teaching him want to spread these lies, and the person accepts them and in turn spreads the falsehoods to other people, thinking that they are telling people the truth?  In effect, it has the same result, spreading falsehoods about Islam.  Does it matter whether the person KNOWS that they are engaging in taqiyya or not?  I think it does, which is why I don't believe that Sarah is engaging in it herself.  I'm willing to give her the benefit of the doubt and assume that she is simply repeating what she has been told, and she hasn't been told that what she is taught is taqiyya.  After all, there are some branches of Islam that teach that Islam is legitimately a religion of peace, etc.  I think Sarah belongs to that kind of branch of Islam.

Zeev, I am amazed to see you write that there are "branches of Islam" that are "legitimately a religion of peace". THERE IS ONLY ONE ISLAM AND THAT IS THE ISLAM OF THE KORAN AND THE HADITH, WHICH ARE NAZI BOOKS OF GENOCIDE. There are no "branches" of this evil terrorist religion that are peaceful. When you write that, you sound like George Bush, Bill O'Reilly and Sean Hannity. If someone was born a Muslim but rejects jihad (the Islamic war to conquer the world and exterminate all non-Muslims), then they are no longer a Muslim.
The fact that Sarah defends aspects of Islam is unfortunate. It shows that she remains confused and conflicted about her identity. But Sarah's presence in our movement and her open mind does NOT represent any "branch" of Islam. All of the "branches" of Islam would literally murder someone like Sarah.

OK, there was a misunderstanding here.  I didn't say that there are branches that are legitimate branches of a religion of peace, I merely said that some "Muslims" are taught that Islam is a religion of peace even though those teachings are not representative of true Islam.  Those "branches" attempt to show that Islam is legitimately a religion of peace even though we all know that it is not.  The comparison with reform Judaism is a good one, I was merely saying that some branches of Islam try to pretend that Islam is a "religion of peace" because the people who follow those movements do not follow real Islam.  I do not believe Islam to be a religion of peace in any way, shape, or form, I was just saying that some people who believe that they are following true "Islam" think that it is a peaceful religion.

As for why you, kellymaureen, are considering to leave the forum, I cannot understand.  We are all behind you in this matter and we do not believe that you are "misinterpreting" Islam in any way. 
"The Jews will eventually have to face up to what you're dealing with here.  The arabs will never love you for what good you've brought them.  They don't know how to really love.  But hate!  Oh, G-d, can they hate!  And they have a deep, deep, deep resentment because you have jolted them from their delusions of grandeur and shown them for what they are-a decadent, savage people controlled by a religion that has stripped them of all human ambition . . . except for the few cruel enough and arrogant enough to command them as one commands a mob of sheep.  You are dealing with a mad society and you'd better learn how to control it."

-Excerpt from The Haj by Leon Uris

Offline MarZutra

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Re: Who Thinks I'm a lying, taqiyyah practicing muslim?
« Reply #184 on: October 12, 2007, 12:45:49 AM »
Personally, as I have told Yacov already, that I do not believe Sarah should be banned but either watched or warned to be more careful.  Some "mistakes" may well be honest but making them during a vital issue is something that should not and cannot happen....imo. 

As for KM, I'm sure she understands how we all feel.  Her position is clear and very valid which does deem consideration and attention. 

Enough is enough with this thread for me.  I'm not wasting one more electron from my mental capacity...frankly it is starting to, if hadn't already, lower my IQ ;)
"‘Vehorashtem/Numbers 33:53’: When you burn out the Land’s inhabitants, you will merit to bestow upon your children the Land as an inheritance. If you do not burn them out, then even if you conquer the Land, you will not merit to allot it to your children as an inheritance." - Ovadiah ben Yacov Sforno; Italian Rabbi, Biblical Commentator, Philosopher and Physician.  1475-1550.

Offline Ari

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Re: Who Thinks I'm a lying, taqiyyah practicing muslim?
« Reply #185 on: October 12, 2007, 12:51:58 AM »
Geez, I miss a little more than a day and all this breaks out.  Considering her background I commend Sarah for seeking out alternative points of view.  She's still yound and may still be a little confused, but I'm sure as she grows older she will see for sure that there is no room for compromise when it comes to Islam.

Offline Ultra Requete

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Re: Who Thinks I'm a lying, taqiyyah practicing muslim?
« Reply #186 on: October 12, 2007, 03:21:37 AM »
Kelly you're great person with firm and 100% percent correct but not politicall correct belives on pisslam; please don't leave becouse of Sarah; She's suposed to be young and confused becouse of her pisslamic upbring so I'm willing to give her all benfits of daubt atleast for now... and I think we must help her to leave this cult (it's not religion just like comunism or nazism); but becouse of this I neither trust her; she must be watched very carefullly becouse some ofher statement are troubling especialy after reading this threat. Last thing people here are very pasionate and sometimes even paronoid so the fight do starts from silly things; I wish we woud have more patience and undesrtanding for one another; we have real enemies to fight and they're outside of walls!
P.S Kelly if you want I I can ask Chaim for you If any form of pissslam apology is tolerated in JTF; and can post any of your future questions if you'll decide to leave although I plead you to stay.     
Jeremiah 8:11-17

11 They dress the wound of my people as though it were not serious. Peace, peace, they say, when there is no peace.

12 Are they ashamed of their loathsome conduct? No, they have no shame at all; they do not even know how to blush. So they will fall among the fallen; they will be brought down when they are punished, says the LORD.

13 'I will take away their harvest, declares the LORD. There will be no grapes on the vine. There will be no figs on the tree, and their leaves will wither. What I have given them will be taken from them.'

14 Why are we sitting here? Gather together! Let us flee to the fortified cities and perish there! For the LORD our God has doomed us to perish and given us poisoned water to drink, because we have sinned against him.

15 We hoped for peace but no good has come, for a time of healing but there was only terror.

16 The snorting of the enemy's horses is heard from Dan; at the neighing of their stallions the whole land trembles. They have come to devour the land and everything in it, the city and all who live there.

17 See, I will send venomous snakes among you, vipers that cannot be charmed, and they will bite you, declares the LORD.

Love your Enemy
And Heap Burning Coals on his Head!!!
http://net-burst.net/revenge/love_and_wrath_of_God.htm

newman

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Re: Who Thinks I'm a lying, taqiyyah practicing muslim?
« Reply #187 on: October 12, 2007, 04:43:47 AM »
I support Kelly's stance on islam 110%.

In Sarah's case I feel conflicted.( I havn't seen the thread calling the IDF 'occupiers' yet, BTW) The poor kid is torn right down the middle. She knows (in her heart) that muslims are scum and their 'religion' is vile, cruel and ugly. But it's very hard for a young girl to turn on everything she's been taught to identify with since birth in a short time. To do so effectively means turnig against her family, friends AND community. We need to be patient (and we have been).

At the same time, after more than a year, It's time for Sarah to make a decision.

Sarah............

You see the pictures of stoning, torture, mutilation and mass murder. You hear the threats to destroy Britain, the USA, Israel and the west. You hear the comments of the immams and mullahs. These things are not the products of a 2% fringe minority. They are spoken and commited by mainstream muslim clerics and their followers.

Sarah, if you want to wear a bag, have NO rights, condone the mutilation of children (remember the pics of the 8 YO Iranian boy?), want to see Jews murdered and live under sharia......then stay a muslim.

 If you disagree that Jews should be murdered, want to have your own life with a career, full self-determination and rights, want freedom and DON'T want to live under sharia then you must renounce islam now.

Sorry, Sweetie.........but you can't have it both ways. You can't pretend that all the millions upon millions of muslims we all see on TV are not real and that somewhere there is an invisible, peaceful muslim majority. There just isn't.

 I know that you and your family aren't jihadist crazies. Unfortunately, you can't support a monstrous ideology without becoming a monster in time. You can't defend elements of nazism such as hitler's road building and healthcare programs while ignoring the overall hatefull, vile nature of it's core ideology. You're either for nazism 100% or against nazism 100%.

The time has come where you must choose. You're either for islam (and ALL the stuff that goes with it) or against it. You don't have to choose another faith immediately, but you must choose 'islam' or 'NOT islam'.

Offline Dr. Dan

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Re: Who Thinks I'm a lying, taqiyyah practicing muslim?
« Reply #188 on: October 12, 2007, 07:54:27 AM »
I agree with Newman...Sarah, over all is a good person, but she has to be stronger..

If someone says something bad about you, say something nice about them. That way, both of you would be lying.

In your heart you know WE are right and in your guts you know THEY are nuts!

"Science without religion is lame; Religion without science is blind."  - Albert Einstein

Kiwi

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Re: Who Thinks I'm a lying, taqiyyah practicing muslim?
« Reply #189 on: October 12, 2007, 08:12:37 AM »
Ok, I'm convinced she's a Muslim.. get her the HELL OFF this forum!

I second that

Offline Ralph1

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Re: Who Thinks I'm a lying, taqiyyah practicing muslim?
« Reply #190 on: October 12, 2007, 12:03:13 PM »
She makes it look like she's a Zionist and even a Kahanist. If this is true then how can she think Muhammad is a prophet. Muhammad massacred Jews. You either think that sleazy terrorist is a prophet and his murders were justified or he's a terrorist.

Offline Dexter

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Re: Who Thinks I'm a lying, taqiyyah practicing muslim?
« Reply #191 on: October 12, 2007, 01:17:21 PM »
Of course not, Sarah .
You are very spaciel especiely because you are/was a Muslim.
Muslims are "brainwashed" as Charedi Jews are "brainwashed", or as some Christians are "brainwashed". But in fact, it is not "brainwashing", it is a way of educate that developes as a result of having Christian/Muslim/Jews(religion) parents .


And telling me that I misunderstood the koran because I know it is evil and a book of war and I was horrified by reading it.

I do not think that this forum is the place to be defending ANY aspects of that vile, ugly cult.  Is there even one person here who thinks that there is anything in the koran, haidth or sura that can in ANY possible way be defended???  If people here think that islam, muslims, the koran, haidth, or sura are defensable, then I am obviously in the wrong place, I was looking for a forum that deplored islam and muslims AND supported the civilized non muslim world, especially Israel.

Maybe I just found my next question for ask JTF
Of course there are very nice things in Islam, as cherity. Mainly, the Muslims treat the Jews much more better than the Christians did until the second half of the 20th century (after Hitler's death, Hitler was Catholic by the way).
But the fact that Islam is very voilence religion can not be tolerated!
Every religion have voilence aspects, every religion have a diffrent "level" of voilence in it.
Some religion tells you about violence, as Judaism (destroy 7 peoples etc') and there are religion that tell you to ACT voilence .
Not a foreign land we took and not with foreign possession but a land that belong to our ancestors that was occupied without a trial. And when we had the opportunity, we took our land back.
-Shimon Maccabee's answer to Antiochus VII Sidetes.

"When fighting monsters, be wary not to become one... When you gaze into the abyss, it also gazes into you."
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ftf

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Re: Who Thinks I'm a lying, taqiyyah practicing muslim?
« Reply #192 on: October 12, 2007, 01:19:56 PM »
I'd like to give my opinion on this situation, but unfortuanately, someone appears to have deleted Sarah's posts, so I can't comment on them.

From what I have seen, I think that Sarah is actually really confused.

Offline Dexter

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Re: Who Thinks I'm a lying, taqiyyah practicing muslim?
« Reply #193 on: October 12, 2007, 01:21:11 PM »
I'd like to give my opinion on this situation, but unfortuanately, someone appears to have deleted Sarah's posts, so I can't comment on them.

From what I have seen, I think that Sarah is actually really confused.
I have read pages 1 and 2, where are the pages that the posts were deleted in ?
Not a foreign land we took and not with foreign possession but a land that belong to our ancestors that was occupied without a trial. And when we had the opportunity, we took our land back.
-Shimon Maccabee's answer to Antiochus VII Sidetes.

"When fighting monsters, be wary not to become one... When you gaze into the abyss, it also gazes into you."
- Friedrich Nietzsche

Offline Kananga

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Re: Who Thinks I'm a lying, taqiyyah practicing muslim?
« Reply #194 on: October 12, 2007, 01:23:22 PM »
Why don't you let Sarah be Sarah and get off her case?  She has her own mind, just like the nazi who come here and spew crap all over the board, but many of you rather her act as some hateful intolerant rag as part of the whole "A"-men chorus.

ftf

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Re: Who Thinks I'm a lying, taqiyyah practicing muslim?
« Reply #195 on: October 12, 2007, 01:24:23 PM »
I'd like to give my opinion on this situation, but unfortuanately, someone appears to have deleted Sarah's posts, so I can't comment on them.

From what I have seen, I think that Sarah is actually really confused.
I have read pages 1 and 2, where are the pages that the posts were deleted in ?
I don't know, but people are refferring to posts of hers that now don't exist in there posts in this topic.

Offline cjd

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Re: Who Thinks I'm a lying, taqiyyah practicing muslim?
« Reply #196 on: October 12, 2007, 01:28:12 PM »
I'd like to give my opinion on this situation, but unfortuanately, someone appears to have deleted Sarah's posts, so I can't comment on them.

From what I have seen, I think that Sarah is actually really confused.
I have read pages 1 and 2, where are the pages that the posts were deleted in ?
I don't know, but people are refferring to posts of hers that now don't exist in there posts in this topic.
If your looking at last nights discussion she was not there.
He who overlooks one crime invites the commission of another.        Syrus.

A light on to the nations for 60 years


Offline mord

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Re: Who Thinks I'm a lying, taqiyyah practicing muslim?
« Reply #197 on: October 12, 2007, 01:28:32 PM »
Sarah is not practicng anything i spoke to her
Thy destroyers and they that make thee waste shall go forth of thee.  Isaiah 49:17

 
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Offline Dexter

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Re: Who Thinks I'm a lying, taqiyyah practicing muslim?
« Reply #198 on: October 12, 2007, 01:29:52 PM »
She is honest because if she were practicing Takiyah she'd be saying Islam is a peaceful religion and Muhammad is a prophet etc so unless she says that she's not practicing Takiyah. Besides she's 15 according to her profile so how could a child practice Takiyah?

Perhaps she's practicing Takiyah by saying she's 15  ;)
Hey hey hey, wait a second.
YOU actually think that ALL muslims are animals, liars, barberians ? I HAVE A MUSLIM FREIND, he acts much better than some Jews, because he is a HUMAN BEING. Everyone can be nice and freindly, no one is naturally evil . Apropos "evil", "evil" is a point of view and a prespective of one indvedual, what seems evil to YOU, seems nice to me, and so on. Therefor, a Muslim can be nice to some people, and evil to other people .
That is a complete nonsense, no one's parents tell their chile "My son, from now on, always lie to non-Muslims!" .
Not a foreign land we took and not with foreign possession but a land that belong to our ancestors that was occupied without a trial. And when we had the opportunity, we took our land back.
-Shimon Maccabee's answer to Antiochus VII Sidetes.

"When fighting monsters, be wary not to become one... When you gaze into the abyss, it also gazes into you."
- Friedrich Nietzsche

ftf

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Re: Who Thinks I'm a lying, taqiyyah practicing muslim?
« Reply #199 on: October 12, 2007, 01:30:22 PM »
I'd like to give my opinion on this situation, but unfortuanately, someone appears to have deleted Sarah's posts, so I can't comment on them.

From what I have seen, I think that Sarah is actually really confused.
I have read pages 1 and 2, where are the pages that the posts were deleted in ?
I don't know, but people are refferring to posts of hers that now don't exist in there posts in this topic.
If your looking at last nights discussion she was not there.
Really? Then where are the posts in which she says these things tha are being discussed, can someone point me to them? I haven't seen them.