Author Topic: Ultra Orthodox Jews Vs The Secular Israeli State  (Read 25931 times)

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Offline judeanoncapta

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Re: Ultra Orthodox Jews Vs The Secular Israeli State
« Reply #1 on: November 28, 2007, 09:25:33 PM »
I have alot of friends who are caught up in that cult.

They have misinterpreted ONE PASSAGE  of the Talmud and they feel this outweighs the rest of the Talmud and the Entire Tanakh.

They are lunatics and should be excommunicated from Normative Judaism.
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Offline Eliezer Ben Avraham

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Re: Ultra Orthodox Jews Vs The Secular Israeli State
« Reply #2 on: November 28, 2007, 09:46:33 PM »
There can be no Secular Israeli. Without Judaism and it's Jewish character, Israel has no purpose
KAHANE TZADAK!

Offline Tzvi Ben Roshel1

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Re: Ultra Orthodox Jews Vs The Secular Israeli State
« Reply #3 on: November 28, 2007, 11:59:47 PM »
I have alot of friends who are caught up in that cult.

They have misinterpreted ONE PASSAGE  of the Talmud and they feel this outweighs the rest of the Talmud and the Entire Tanakh.

They are lunatics and should be excommunicated from Normative Judaism.

 ??? im guessing you haven't seen the video.(Ive seen the first). They are normal Haredim. In this case they did a lot of good- protesting the gay parade, and shutting down a cremetorium in Israel, good for them, we need more people like that (enforcing Judaism).
The Academy of Elijah taught, whoever studies the laws (of the Torah) every day, (he) is guaranteed to have a share in the World to Come.

‏119:139 צִמְּתַתְנִי קִנְאָתִי כִּישָׁכְחוּ דְבָרֶיךָ צָרָי
My zeal incenses me, for my adversaries have forgotten Your words.
‏119:141 צָעִיר אָנֹכִי וְנִבְזֶה פִּקֻּדֶיךָ, לֹא שָׁכָחְתִּי.
 I am young and despised; I have not forgotten Your precepts.

" A fool does not realize, and an unwise person does not understand this (i.e. the following:) When the wicked bloom like grass, and the evildoers blossom (i.e. when they seem extremly successful), it is to destroy them forever (i.e. they are rewarded for their few good deeds in this World, and they will have no portion in the World to Come!)

Please visit: (The Greatest lectures on Earth).
http://torahanytime.com/
http://www.torahanytime.com/Rabbi/Yossi_Mizrachi/
http://www.torahanytime.com/Rabbi/Zecharia_Wallerstein/

Offline Dr. Dan

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Re: Ultra Orthodox Jews Vs The Secular Israeli State
« Reply #4 on: November 29, 2007, 12:00:23 AM »
I have alot of friends who are caught up in that cult.

They have misinterpreted ONE PASSAGE  of the Talmud and they feel this outweighs the rest of the Talmud and the Entire Tanakh.

They are lunatics and should be excommunicated from Normative Judaism.

 ??? im guessing you haven't seen the video.(Ive seen the first). They are normal Haredim. In this case they did a lot of good- protesting the gay parade, and shutting down a cremetorium in Israel, good for them, we need more people like that (enforcing Judaism).

I agree.
If someone says something bad about you, say something nice about them. That way, both of you would be lying.

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Offline RationalThought110

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Re: Ultra Orthodox Jews Vs The Secular Israeli State
« Reply #5 on: November 29, 2007, 12:47:25 AM »
I have alot of friends who are caught up in that cult.

They have misinterpreted ONE PASSAGE  of the Talmud and they feel this outweighs the rest of the Talmud and the Entire Tanakh.

They are lunatics and should be excommunicated from Normative Judaism.

 ??? im guessing you haven't seen the video.(Ive seen the first). They are normal Haredim. In this case they did a lot of good- protesting the gay parade, and shutting down a cremetorium in Israel, good for them, we need more people like that (enforcing Judaism).


Then why did he refer to them as a cult?

Offline Tzvi Ben Roshel1

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Re: Ultra Orthodox Jews Vs The Secular Israeli State
« Reply #6 on: November 29, 2007, 01:12:47 AM »
I have alot of friends who are caught up in that cult.

They have misinterpreted ONE PASSAGE  of the Talmud and they feel this outweighs the rest of the Talmud and the Entire Tanakh.

They are lunatics and should be excommunicated from Normative Judaism.

 ??? im guessing you haven't seen the video.(Ive seen the first). They are normal Haredim. In this case they did a lot of good- protesting the gay parade, and shutting down a cremetorium in Israel, good for them, we need more people like that (enforcing Judaism).


Then why did he refer to them as a cult?

Im not him, I dont know. Maybe he thought it was NK.
The Academy of Elijah taught, whoever studies the laws (of the Torah) every day, (he) is guaranteed to have a share in the World to Come.

‏119:139 צִמְּתַתְנִי קִנְאָתִי כִּישָׁכְחוּ דְבָרֶיךָ צָרָי
My zeal incenses me, for my adversaries have forgotten Your words.
‏119:141 צָעִיר אָנֹכִי וְנִבְזֶה פִּקֻּדֶיךָ, לֹא שָׁכָחְתִּי.
 I am young and despised; I have not forgotten Your precepts.

" A fool does not realize, and an unwise person does not understand this (i.e. the following:) When the wicked bloom like grass, and the evildoers blossom (i.e. when they seem extremly successful), it is to destroy them forever (i.e. they are rewarded for their few good deeds in this World, and they will have no portion in the World to Come!)

Please visit: (The Greatest lectures on Earth).
http://torahanytime.com/
http://www.torahanytime.com/Rabbi/Yossi_Mizrachi/
http://www.torahanytime.com/Rabbi/Zecharia_Wallerstein/

Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

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Re: Ultra Orthodox Jews Vs The Secular Israeli State
« Reply #7 on: November 29, 2007, 02:13:48 AM »
??? im guessing you haven't seen the video.(Ive seen the first). They are normal Haredim. In this case they did a lot of good- protesting the gay parade, and shutting down a cremetorium in Israel, good for them, we need more people like that (enforcing Judaism).
I don't think this is a lot of good. The faggots are not threatening Israel with annihilation, and as offensive as it is, neither is the cremation site. A Kahanist government would fight to save Israel right now and would deal with the fags later. At a time like this, when Israel's existence is threatened by self-hating kapos, this is very poor prioritization.

If the haredim would get together and use their tremendous social and Knesset clout to stop surrenders and pullouts that promise to annihilate the state of Israel, they would probably be able to stop this treason in its tracks. But they don't; in fact, many are anti-Zionist altogether.

This is why I have a problem with many (not all) haredim.

Offline judeanoncapta

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Re: Ultra Orthodox Jews Vs The Secular Israeli State
« Reply #8 on: November 29, 2007, 02:56:32 AM »
There are very serious problems with "Normal" Hareidim.

I know, because I live with them and considered myself to be one until very recently.

The problem is that the attitude of "Normal" Hareidim is EXACTLY what is holding up the Geulah.

The attitude that Judaism is only what goes on in the bedroom and the kitchen, and not the all-encompassing Law that we are supposed  to impose on a state level is why we don't have Geulah.

If the Normal Hareidi View of Judaism would stop being the view being followed and the Judaism of say Joshua or Ezra or Rabbi Yehudha HaNasi were what we followed, there would be a Temple standing on Har HaBayith.

You ever wonder why Hareidim don't learn Tanakh, or even for G-d's sake Mesekhtoth of the Gemara that are of practical use like Berakhoth or Hulin.

The reason they start young kids off with oxen goring each other and what if someone digs a hole on main street or what do we do if two people claim the same peice of cloth is so that the Torah remains "lore" and not "Law" in the eye of the young Hareidi.

They literally want the Torah to be impractical and irrelevant so that Jews will not ever wake up one day and say "Rambam, Hatham Sofer, Sefer HaHinukh, Minhath Hinukh, Rabbi Yechiel of Paris the list is practically endless. They ALL say that we are obligated to build the Temple right now!!!!!!   Why aren't we doing it?"

And what answer could you possible give the masses if they ever realized that?

That the greatest Rabbis are too cowardly to enforce what the Torah clearly commands us to do?

It's the truth, but it is hard to take.

Besides something as large as the Temple, there various other things that Rabbis don't want their flock to realize.

A) Tahanun is supposed to be said in full prostration (HishtaHawaya) on the ground. This is clear from the numerous places when Tahanun is mentioned as well as from the Rambam in his Mishne Torah. Why we don't do it that way to day and instead sit with our arms placed in a strange manner on our head is a tragedy.

B) There is no such thing Halakhically as Ashkenazim and Sepharadim. According to Halakha, Minhagim go according to the place, not the person or his father. There is no Halakhic basis whatsoever for the idea that Ashkenazim and Sepharadim must maintain cultural or even Halakhic seperate identities when they live together whether in New York or Jerusalem. Most Rabbis are so stuck in the past that actually unifying the Jewish people(which the Maharal says will end the Galuth immediately) is completely beyond their capabilities.

C) Tzitzith is NOT underwear. It is supposed to attached to your outermost garment. The fact that we stuff an uncomfortable and illogical rectangular "garment" under our shirts is a tragedy.

D) The Herem of Rabbenu Gershom was never accepted in Eretz Yisrael, therefore any Jew living there can take a second, third, or even a hundredth wife with no problem according to Halakha. Public knowledge of this would radically change the culture of Galuth Judaism and is therefore suppressed.

E) The Hebrew spoken today whether modern, Sephardic, or Ashkenazic is full of errors. The true pronunciation is well know because Rav Saadya Gaon detailed it 1100 years ago. The fact that VERY few Jews follow the correct pronuncitation and instead feel the need to be loyal to whatever mistakes were common in the country of his great-grandfather's birth is a tragedy.

F) Jews do NOT have to listen to Gedolei HaTorah. If they formed a Sanhedrin, we would have to. Since they are too cowardly to do so, we don't. The Sanhedrin is something that Rabbis are afraid of, because it would require change of a major order as ANY Sanhedrin would have the right to argue and change practically any Halakha whether in Shulhan Arukh, THe Talmudh or even the Mishna. That fact is frightening to establishment Rabbis. They know it and they're scared to death.

I could go on and on. And in view of the myriad of Halakhic truths being suppressed, I call normative Hareidi Judaism a cult.

Yes, I do.

The reason that Tanakh is never learned is simple.

The Tanakh relates to Jews solely as a nation and NOT a religion. That is dangerous to the way most Jews view Judaism and therefore, it is not learned by Hareidim. Because if you learned Tanakh, you might discover or attempt to emulate Moshe, Yehoshua, Daweedh, Shelomo, Ezra and so forth. We can't have that, can we? Therefore among Hareidim, the Tanakh itself is suppressed. What a tragedy!!!!!! What an obscenity!!!!!!!!! What an abomination!!!!!!!!

If you, Tzvi, can contradict anything that I have written, I will take it back.

Until then, you'll just have to deal with the truth.


« Last Edit: November 29, 2007, 03:02:42 AM by judeanoncapta »
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Offline q_q_

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Re: Ultra Orthodox Jews Vs The Secular Israeli State
« Reply #9 on: November 29, 2007, 04:54:16 AM »
If Israel is secular - as it is currently.. Then we are in trouble..
I hope G-d does not throw us out of the land..

Israelis must be more religious. Certainly not anti religious.
But we still need a strong army..Jews faught wars with the help of G-d. We did not lie down in the sun, surrounded by our enemies.   I hear that the ultra orthodox do not support the army very much.





Offline Tzvi Ben Roshel1

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Re: Ultra Orthodox Jews Vs The Secular Israeli State
« Reply #10 on: November 29, 2007, 05:33:08 PM »
What I hope to happen is for the Haredim to develope zealousness against fighting our externel enemies (mainly the arabs, u.n. etc.), and the National Religious/ Sefardim to develope and help in the campaign of fighting the internel enemies (Immodesty, evil gay culture, the selling of pork, etc.) We cant have one without the other.
 No Arabs, No Pork  - ;)
The Academy of Elijah taught, whoever studies the laws (of the Torah) every day, (he) is guaranteed to have a share in the World to Come.

‏119:139 צִמְּתַתְנִי קִנְאָתִי כִּישָׁכְחוּ דְבָרֶיךָ צָרָי
My zeal incenses me, for my adversaries have forgotten Your words.
‏119:141 צָעִיר אָנֹכִי וְנִבְזֶה פִּקֻּדֶיךָ, לֹא שָׁכָחְתִּי.
 I am young and despised; I have not forgotten Your precepts.

" A fool does not realize, and an unwise person does not understand this (i.e. the following:) When the wicked bloom like grass, and the evildoers blossom (i.e. when they seem extremly successful), it is to destroy them forever (i.e. they are rewarded for their few good deeds in this World, and they will have no portion in the World to Come!)

Please visit: (The Greatest lectures on Earth).
http://torahanytime.com/
http://www.torahanytime.com/Rabbi/Yossi_Mizrachi/
http://www.torahanytime.com/Rabbi/Zecharia_Wallerstein/

Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

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Re: Ultra Orthodox Jews Vs The Secular Israeli State
« Reply #11 on: November 29, 2007, 05:36:17 PM »
Kahanism agrees with this comprehensive plan completely, but right now the greatest emergency is Israel's survival!

Offline Dominater96

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Re: Ultra Orthodox Jews Vs The Secular Israeli State
« Reply #12 on: November 29, 2007, 06:05:34 PM »
There are very serious problems with "Normal" Hareidim.

I know, because I live with them and considered myself to be one until very recently.

The problem is that the attitude of "Normal" Hareidim is EXACTLY what is holding up the Geulah.

The attitude that Judaism is only what goes on in the bedroom and the kitchen, and not the all-encompassing Law that we are supposed  to impose on a state level is why we don't have Geulah.

If the Normal Hareidi View of Judaism would stop being the view being followed and the Judaism of say Joshua or Ezra or Rabbi Yehudha HaNasi were what we followed, there would be a Temple standing on Har HaBayith.

You ever wonder why Hareidim don't learn Tanakh, or even for G-d's sake Mesekhtoth of the Gemara that are of practical use like Berakhoth or Hulin.

The reason they start young kids off with oxen goring each other and what if someone digs a hole on main street or what do we do if two people claim the same peice of cloth is so that the Torah remains "lore" and not "Law" in the eye of the young Hareidi.

They literally want the Torah to be impractical and irrelevant so that Jews will not ever wake up one day and say "Rambam, Hatham Sofer, Sefer HaHinukh, Minhath Hinukh, Rabbi Yechiel of Paris the list is practically endless. They ALL say that we are obligated to build the Temple right now!!!!!!   Why aren't we doing it?"

And what answer could you possible give the masses if they ever realized that?

That the greatest Rabbis are too cowardly to enforce what the Torah clearly commands us to do?

It's the truth, but it is hard to take.

Besides something as large as the Temple, there various other things that Rabbis don't want their flock to realize.

A) Tahanun is supposed to be said in full prostration (HishtaHawaya) on the ground. This is clear from the numerous places when Tahanun is mentioned as well as from the Rambam in his Mishne Torah. Why we don't do it that way to day and instead sit with our arms placed in a strange manner on our head is a tragedy.

B) There is no such thing Halakhically as Ashkenazim and Sepharadim. According to Halakha, Minhagim go according to the place, not the person or his father. There is no Halakhic basis whatsoever for the idea that Ashkenazim and Sepharadim must maintain cultural or even Halakhic seperate identities when they live together whether in New York or Jerusalem. Most Rabbis are so stuck in the past that actually unifying the Jewish people(which the Maharal says will end the Galuth immediately) is completely beyond their capabilities.

C) Tzitzith is NOT underwear. It is supposed to attached to your outermost garment. The fact that we stuff an uncomfortable and illogical rectangular "garment" under our shirts is a tragedy.

D) The Herem of Rabbenu Gershom was never accepted in Eretz Yisrael, therefore any Jew living there can take a second, third, or even a hundredth wife with no problem according to Halakha. Public knowledge of this would radically change the culture of Galuth Judaism and is therefore suppressed.

E) The Hebrew spoken today whether modern, Sephardic, or Ashkenazic is full of errors. The true pronunciation is well know because Rav Saadya Gaon detailed it 1100 years ago. The fact that VERY few Jews follow the correct pronuncitation and instead feel the need to be loyal to whatever mistakes were common in the country of his great-grandfather's birth is a tragedy.

F) Jews do NOT have to listen to Gedolei HaTorah. If they formed a Sanhedrin, we would have to. Since they are too cowardly to do so, we don't. The Sanhedrin is something that Rabbis are afraid of, because it would require change of a major order as ANY Sanhedrin would have the right to argue and change practically any Halakha whether in Shulhan Arukh, THe Talmudh or even the Mishna. That fact is frightening to establishment Rabbis. They know it and they're scared to death.

I could go on and on. And in view of the myriad of Halakhic truths being suppressed, I call normative Hareidi Judaism a cult.

Yes, I do.

The reason that Tanakh is never learned is simple.

The Tanakh relates to Jews solely as a nation and NOT a religion. That is dangerous to the way most Jews view Judaism and therefore, it is not learned by Hareidim. Because if you learned Tanakh, you might discover or attempt to emulate Moshe, Yehoshua, Daweedh, Shelomo, Ezra and so forth. We can't have that, can we? Therefore among Hareidim, the Tanakh itself is suppressed. What a tragedy!!!!!! What an obscenity!!!!!!!!! What an abomination!!!!!!!!

If you, Tzvi, can contradict anything that I have written, I will take it back.

Until then, you'll just have to deal with the truth.



Can you provide a source for A) about Tahanun. Also is your Rabbi, David Bar Chaim?

Offline judeanoncapta

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Re: Ultra Orthodox Jews Vs The Secular Israeli State
« Reply #13 on: November 29, 2007, 06:29:43 PM »
There are very serious problems with "Normal" Hareidim.

I know, because I live with them and considered myself to be one until very recently.

The problem is that the attitude of "Normal" Hareidim is EXACTLY what is holding up the Geulah.

The attitude that Judaism is only what goes on in the bedroom and the kitchen, and not the all-encompassing Law that we are supposed  to impose on a state level is why we don't have Geulah.

If the Normal Hareidi View of Judaism would stop being the view being followed and the Judaism of say Joshua or Ezra or Rabbi Yehudha HaNasi were what we followed, there would be a Temple standing on Har HaBayith.

You ever wonder why Hareidim don't learn Tanakh, or even for G-d's sake Mesekhtoth of the Gemara that are of practical use like Berakhoth or Hulin.

The reason they start young kids off with oxen goring each other and what if someone digs a hole on main street or what do we do if two people claim the same peice of cloth is so that the Torah remains "lore" and not "Law" in the eye of the young Hareidi.

They literally want the Torah to be impractical and irrelevant so that Jews will not ever wake up one day and say "Rambam, Hatham Sofer, Sefer HaHinukh, Minhath Hinukh, Rabbi Yechiel of Paris the list is practically endless. They ALL say that we are obligated to build the Temple right now!!!!!!   Why aren't we doing it?"

And what answer could you possible give the masses if they ever realized that?

That the greatest Rabbis are too cowardly to enforce what the Torah clearly commands us to do?

It's the truth, but it is hard to take.

Besides something as large as the Temple, there various other things that Rabbis don't want their flock to realize.

A) Tahanun is supposed to be said in full prostration (HishtaHawaya) on the ground. This is clear from the numerous places when Tahanun is mentioned as well as from the Rambam in his Mishne Torah. Why we don't do it that way to day and instead sit with our arms placed in a strange manner on our head is a tragedy.

B) There is no such thing Halakhically as Ashkenazim and Sepharadim. According to Halakha, Minhagim go according to the place, not the person or his father. There is no Halakhic basis whatsoever for the idea that Ashkenazim and Sepharadim must maintain cultural or even Halakhic seperate identities when they live together whether in New York or Jerusalem. Most Rabbis are so stuck in the past that actually unifying the Jewish people(which the Maharal says will end the Galuth immediately) is completely beyond their capabilities.

C) Tzitzith is NOT underwear. It is supposed to attached to your outermost garment. The fact that we stuff an uncomfortable and illogical rectangular "garment" under our shirts is a tragedy.

D) The Herem of Rabbenu Gershom was never accepted in Eretz Yisrael, therefore any Jew living there can take a second, third, or even a hundredth wife with no problem according to Halakha. Public knowledge of this would radically change the culture of Galuth Judaism and is therefore suppressed.

E) The Hebrew spoken today whether modern, Sephardic, or Ashkenazic is full of errors. The true pronunciation is well know because Rav Saadya Gaon detailed it 1100 years ago. The fact that VERY few Jews follow the correct pronuncitation and instead feel the need to be loyal to whatever mistakes were common in the country of his great-grandfather's birth is a tragedy.

F) Jews do NOT have to listen to Gedolei HaTorah. If they formed a Sanhedrin, we would have to. Since they are too cowardly to do so, we don't. The Sanhedrin is something that Rabbis are afraid of, because it would require change of a major order as ANY Sanhedrin would have the right to argue and change practically any Halakha whether in Shulhan Arukh, THe Talmudh or even the Mishna. That fact is frightening to establishment Rabbis. They know it and they're scared to death.

I could go on and on. And in view of the myriad of Halakhic truths being suppressed, I call normative Hareidi Judaism a cult.

Yes, I do.

The reason that Tanakh is never learned is simple.

The Tanakh relates to Jews solely as a nation and NOT a religion. That is dangerous to the way most Jews view Judaism and therefore, it is not learned by Hareidim. Because if you learned Tanakh, you might discover or attempt to emulate Moshe, Yehoshua, Daweedh, Shelomo, Ezra and so forth. We can't have that, can we? Therefore among Hareidim, the Tanakh itself is suppressed. What a tragedy!!!!!! What an obscenity!!!!!!!!! What an abomination!!!!!!!!

If you, Tzvi, can contradict anything that I have written, I will take it back.

Until then, you'll just have to deal with the truth.



Can you provide a source for A) about Tahanun. Also is your Rabbi, David Bar Chaim?

Yes, here is the source Rambam Hilkhoth Tefilah, Pereq Hamesh Halakha  Shesh Esre or Maimonides Laws of prayer chapter five Law Sixteen.

טז   כִּשְׁהוּא עוֹשֶׂה נְפִילַת פָּנִים אַחַר תְּפִלָּה, יֵשׁ מִי שְׁהוּא עוֹשֶׂה קִדָּה, וְיֵשׁ מִי שְׁהוּא עוֹשֶׂה הִשְׁתַּחֲוָיָה; וְאָסוּר לַעֲשׂוֹת הִשְׁתַּחֲוָיָה עַל הָאֲבָנִים אֵלָא בַּמִּקְדָּשׁ, כְּמוֹ שֶׁבֵּאַרְנוּ בְּהִלְכּוֹת עֲבוֹדָה זָרָה.  וְאֵין אָדָם חָשׁוּב רַשָּׁאי לִפֹּל עַל פָּנָיו, אֵלָא אִם כֵּן הוּא יוֹדֵעַ בְּעַצְמוֹ שְׁהוּא צַדִּיק כִּיהוֹשׁוּעַ; אֲבָל מַטֶּה הוּא פָּנָיו מְעַט, וְאֵינוּ כּוֹבֵשׁ אוֹתָם בַּקַּרְקָע.  וּמֻתָּר לָאָדָם לְהִתְפַּלַּל בְּמָקוֹם זֶה, וְלִנְפֹּל עַל פָּנָיו בְּמָקוֹם אַחֵר.

Can you read and understand it, Dominator or do you need me to translate?

Also the two Halakhoth immediately preceding this one explain what is Kri'Ah, Qeedha and HishtaHawaya.

יד  [יג] הִשְׁתַּחֲוָיָה כֵּיצַד:  אַחַר שֶׁמַּגְבִּיהַּ רֹאשׁוֹ מִכְּרִיעָה חֲמִישִׁית, יוֹשֵׁב לָאָרֶץ, וְנוֹפֵל עַל פָּנָיו אָרְצָה, וּמִתְחַנֵּן בְּכָל הַתַּחֲנוּנִים שֶׁיִּרְצֶה.

טו  כְּרִיעָה הָאֲמוּרָה בְּכָל מָקוֹם, עַל בִּרְכַּיִם; קִדָּה, עַל אַפַּיִם; הִשְׁתַּחֲוָיָה--זוֹ פִּשּׁוּט יָדַיִם וְרַגְלַיִם, עַד שֶׁנִּמְצָא מוּטָל עַל פָּנָיו עַל הָאָרֶץ.



And yes, I can proudly say that Rabbi Daweedh Bar Hayim is the most extraordinarily truthful and brilliant and Strong Rabbi I have ever met. He is helping to pulling me out of Boro Park mentally and physically and sending me to Judea, mentally and physically.

His Torah and only his Torah is capable of wiping the Galuth off of us.

And NO Rabbi can disprove what he's saying about Sepharadim and Ashkenazim. There isn't a Rabbi alive who can come up with a justification of what we do today which contradicts the Mishna, Talmudh, Tur, and ShulHan Arukh.

If you listen to his shiurim and look up everything he says, you will see that he speaks the truth and there is no hareidi or dati leumi Rav that can disprove him. Not Ovadia Yosef and not Rav Elyashiv.

NO ONE.

machonshilo.org is the place to be for truth-seekers.
Post questions here for the ASK JUDEA TORAH SHOW


my blog: Yehudi-Nation






Who is truly wise? He who can see the future. I see tommorow today and I want to end it - Rabbi Meir Daweedh Kahana

Offline Merkava

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Re: Ultra Orthodox Jews Vs The Secular Israeli State
« Reply #14 on: November 29, 2007, 06:47:27 PM »
Geez......Excellent Video !!!

No disrespect to anyone in the forum but this video reminded me why my sister who is Israeli dislikes the ultra orthodox:

1) They are easily except of the military service

2) The live off benefits & state handouts

No disrespect to anyone in the forum (I know all you super religious right wingers will hate me for this)

I admire the ultra orthodox who work, contribute and serve in the military (just like the lady in the documentary) but the ones who beat that woman up in the bus and don't work should be slapped around with a huge pork chop. YOU DON'T HIT A WOMAN. (unless she is holding a gun to your head!)

I agree that certain parts in Jerusalem should be kept discrete  - we still have to preserve our identity but I would not like to see Israel turn into an Ultra Orthodox State. The only positive aspect of the video was the burning of the crematorium.



"We are in 1938, and Iran is Germany"


Offline OdKahaneChai

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Re: Ultra Orthodox Jews Vs The Secular Israeli State
« Reply #15 on: November 29, 2007, 07:55:05 PM »
Kahanism agrees with this comprehensive plan completely, but right now the greatest emergency is Israel's survival!
But this is Israel's survival.

One does not deal with terrorists; one does not bargain with terrorists; one kills terrorists.
- Rabbi Meir Kahane ZT"L, HY"D

Offline Iron Greek

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Re: Ultra Orthodox Jews Vs The Secular Israeli State
« Reply #16 on: November 29, 2007, 07:56:37 PM »
Your a good greek merk

Offline Tzvi Ben Roshel1

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Re: Ultra Orthodox Jews Vs The Secular Israeli State
« Reply #17 on: November 29, 2007, 08:31:21 PM »
Judea, I disagree about the Sefardim and Askenazim thing. Personally I wouldnt like their to be an assimilation between myself with other grops (even within Judaism). I respect the different Jewish cultures and groups and wouldnt want anyone dictating to me how I should practice and live life outside my tradition and cultural background. This reminds me of the fact that for a long time Askenazim contolled many of the Yeshivas and their mentality and Halahot is passed on to the Sefardim who attend.

 Before you jump on me and say that this causes disunity, etc, you should know that each tribe of Israel lived in its own border, and the land was organized and devided into families where it ended up that you live closer to people who are more related to you, and have the same culture as you.
Im Bukharian Sefardi and proud of it, and wouldnt like that identity to disappear.
The Academy of Elijah taught, whoever studies the laws (of the Torah) every day, (he) is guaranteed to have a share in the World to Come.

‏119:139 צִמְּתַתְנִי קִנְאָתִי כִּישָׁכְחוּ דְבָרֶיךָ צָרָי
My zeal incenses me, for my adversaries have forgotten Your words.
‏119:141 צָעִיר אָנֹכִי וְנִבְזֶה פִּקֻּדֶיךָ, לֹא שָׁכָחְתִּי.
 I am young and despised; I have not forgotten Your precepts.

" A fool does not realize, and an unwise person does not understand this (i.e. the following:) When the wicked bloom like grass, and the evildoers blossom (i.e. when they seem extremly successful), it is to destroy them forever (i.e. they are rewarded for their few good deeds in this World, and they will have no portion in the World to Come!)

Please visit: (The Greatest lectures on Earth).
http://torahanytime.com/
http://www.torahanytime.com/Rabbi/Yossi_Mizrachi/
http://www.torahanytime.com/Rabbi/Zecharia_Wallerstein/

Offline OdKahaneChai

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Re: Ultra Orthodox Jews Vs The Secular Israeli State
« Reply #18 on: November 29, 2007, 08:42:49 PM »
Judea, I disagree about the Sefardim and Askenazim thing. Personally I wouldnt like their to be an assimilation between myself with other grops (even within Judaism). I respect the different Jewish cultures and groups and wouldnt want anyone dictating to me how I should practice and live life outside my tradition and cultural background. This reminds me of the fact that for a long time Askenazim contolled many of the Yeshivas and their mentality and Halahot is passed on to the Sefardim who attend.

 Before you jump on me and say that this causes disunity, etc, you should know that each tribe of Israel lived in its own border, and the land was organized and devided into families where it ended up that you live closer to people who are more related to you, and have the same culture as you.
Im Bukharian Sefardi and proud of it, and wouldnt like that identity to disappear.
Maybe some differences of opinion can be settled by the future (IY"H) Sanhedrin.  But until then, each group should keep its own customs.

One does not deal with terrorists; one does not bargain with terrorists; one kills terrorists.
- Rabbi Meir Kahane ZT"L, HY"D

Offline jdl4ever

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Re: Ultra Orthodox Jews Vs The Secular Israeli State
« Reply #19 on: November 29, 2007, 10:57:32 PM »
Judea, I disagree about the Sefardim and Askenazim thing. Personally I wouldnt like their to be an assimilation between myself with other grops (even within Judaism). I respect the different Jewish cultures and groups and wouldnt want anyone dictating to me how I should practice and live life outside my tradition and cultural background. This reminds me of the fact that for a long time Askenazim contolled many of the Yeshivas and their mentality and Halahot is passed on to the Sefardim who attend.

Those Charedi Asheknazi Yeshivas don't only try to make the Sephardim take on new Charedi beliefs and reject their own traditions but they do exactly the same thing to regular Askenazim and make them lose their traditional identity.
"Enough weeping and wailing; and the following of leaders & rabbis who are pygmies of little faith & less understanding."
"I believe very much in a nation beating their swords into plowshears but when my enemy has a sword I don't want a plowshear"
-Rabbi Meir Kahane Zs'l HYD

Offline Dominater96

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Re: Ultra Orthodox Jews Vs The Secular Israeli State
« Reply #20 on: November 29, 2007, 11:01:45 PM »
There are very serious problems with "Normal" Hareidim.

I know, because I live with them and considered myself to be one until very recently.

The problem is that the attitude of "Normal" Hareidim is EXACTLY what is holding up the Geulah.

The attitude that Judaism is only what goes on in the bedroom and the kitchen, and not the all-encompassing Law that we are supposed  to impose on a state level is why we don't have Geulah.

If the Normal Hareidi View of Judaism would stop being the view being followed and the Judaism of say Joshua or Ezra or Rabbi Yehudha HaNasi were what we followed, there would be a Temple standing on Har HaBayith.

You ever wonder why Hareidim don't learn Tanakh, or even for G-d's sake Mesekhtoth of the Gemara that are of practical use like Berakhoth or Hulin.

The reason they start young kids off with oxen goring each other and what if someone digs a hole on main street or what do we do if two people claim the same peice of cloth is so that the Torah remains "lore" and not "Law" in the eye of the young Hareidi.

They literally want the Torah to be impractical and irrelevant so that Jews will not ever wake up one day and say "Rambam, Hatham Sofer, Sefer HaHinukh, Minhath Hinukh, Rabbi Yechiel of Paris the list is practically endless. They ALL say that we are obligated to build the Temple right now!!!!!!   Why aren't we doing it?"

And what answer could you possible give the masses if they ever realized that?

That the greatest Rabbis are too cowardly to enforce what the Torah clearly commands us to do?

It's the truth, but it is hard to take.

Besides something as large as the Temple, there various other things that Rabbis don't want their flock to realize.

A) Tahanun is supposed to be said in full prostration (HishtaHawaya) on the ground. This is clear from the numerous places when Tahanun is mentioned as well as from the Rambam in his Mishne Torah. Why we don't do it that way to day and instead sit with our arms placed in a strange manner on our head is a tragedy.

B) There is no such thing Halakhically as Ashkenazim and Sepharadim. According to Halakha, Minhagim go according to the place, not the person or his father. There is no Halakhic basis whatsoever for the idea that Ashkenazim and Sepharadim must maintain cultural or even Halakhic seperate identities when they live together whether in New York or Jerusalem. Most Rabbis are so stuck in the past that actually unifying the Jewish people(which the Maharal says will end the Galuth immediately) is completely beyond their capabilities.

C) Tzitzith is NOT underwear. It is supposed to attached to your outermost garment. The fact that we stuff an uncomfortable and illogical rectangular "garment" under our shirts is a tragedy.

D) The Herem of Rabbenu Gershom was never accepted in Eretz Yisrael, therefore any Jew living there can take a second, third, or even a hundredth wife with no problem according to Halakha. Public knowledge of this would radically change the culture of Galuth Judaism and is therefore suppressed.

E) The Hebrew spoken today whether modern, Sephardic, or Ashkenazic is full of errors. The true pronunciation is well know because Rav Saadya Gaon detailed it 1100 years ago. The fact that VERY few Jews follow the correct pronuncitation and instead feel the need to be loyal to whatever mistakes were common in the country of his great-grandfather's birth is a tragedy.

F) Jews do NOT have to listen to Gedolei HaTorah. If they formed a Sanhedrin, we would have to. Since they are too cowardly to do so, we don't. The Sanhedrin is something that Rabbis are afraid of, because it would require change of a major order as ANY Sanhedrin would have the right to argue and change practically any Halakha whether in Shulhan Arukh, THe Talmudh or even the Mishna. That fact is frightening to establishment Rabbis. They know it and they're scared to death.

I could go on and on. And in view of the myriad of Halakhic truths being suppressed, I call normative Hareidi Judaism a cult.

Yes, I do.

The reason that Tanakh is never learned is simple.

The Tanakh relates to Jews solely as a nation and NOT a religion. That is dangerous to the way most Jews view Judaism and therefore, it is not learned by Hareidim. Because if you learned Tanakh, you might discover or attempt to emulate Moshe, Yehoshua, Daweedh, Shelomo, Ezra and so forth. We can't have that, can we? Therefore among Hareidim, the Tanakh itself is suppressed. What a tragedy!!!!!! What an obscenity!!!!!!!!! What an abomination!!!!!!!!

If you, Tzvi, can contradict anything that I have written, I will take it back.

Until then, you'll just have to deal with the truth.



Can you provide a source for A) about Tahanun. Also is your Rabbi, David Bar Chaim?

Yes, here is the source Rambam Hilkhoth Tefilah, Pereq Hamesh Halakha  Shesh Esre or Maimonides Laws of prayer chapter five Law Sixteen.

טז   כִּשְׁהוּא עוֹשֶׂה נְפִילַת פָּנִים אַחַר תְּפִלָּה, יֵשׁ מִי שְׁהוּא עוֹשֶׂה קִדָּה, וְיֵשׁ מִי שְׁהוּא עוֹשֶׂה הִשְׁתַּחֲוָיָה; וְאָסוּר לַעֲשׂוֹת הִשְׁתַּחֲוָיָה עַל הָאֲבָנִים אֵלָא בַּמִּקְדָּשׁ, כְּמוֹ שֶׁבֵּאַרְנוּ בְּהִלְכּוֹת עֲבוֹדָה זָרָה.  וְאֵין אָדָם חָשׁוּב רַשָּׁאי לִפֹּל עַל פָּנָיו, אֵלָא אִם כֵּן הוּא יוֹדֵעַ בְּעַצְמוֹ שְׁהוּא צַדִּיק כִּיהוֹשׁוּעַ; אֲבָל מַטֶּה הוּא פָּנָיו מְעַט, וְאֵינוּ כּוֹבֵשׁ אוֹתָם בַּקַּרְקָע.  וּמֻתָּר לָאָדָם לְהִתְפַּלַּל בְּמָקוֹם זֶה, וְלִנְפֹּל עַל פָּנָיו בְּמָקוֹם אַחֵר.

Can you read and understand it, Dominator or do you need me to translate?

Also the two Halakhoth immediately preceding this one explain what is Kri'Ah, Qeedha and HishtaHawaya.

יד  [יג] הִשְׁתַּחֲוָיָה כֵּיצַד:  אַחַר שֶׁמַּגְבִּיהַּ רֹאשׁוֹ מִכְּרִיעָה חֲמִישִׁית, יוֹשֵׁב לָאָרֶץ, וְנוֹפֵל עַל פָּנָיו אָרְצָה, וּמִתְחַנֵּן בְּכָל הַתַּחֲנוּנִים שֶׁיִּרְצֶה.

טו  כְּרִיעָה הָאֲמוּרָה בְּכָל מָקוֹם, עַל בִּרְכַּיִם; קִדָּה, עַל אַפַּיִם; הִשְׁתַּחֲוָיָה--זוֹ פִּשּׁוּט יָדַיִם וְרַגְלַיִם, עַד שֶׁנִּמְצָא מוּטָל עַל פָּנָיו עַל הָאָרֶץ.



And yes, I can proudly say that Rabbi Daweedh Bar Hayim is the most extraordinarily truthful and brilliant and Strong Rabbi I have ever met. He is helping to pulling me out of Boro Park mentally and physically and sending me to Judea, mentally and physically.

His Torah and only his Torah is capable of wiping the Galuth off of us.

And NO Rabbi can disprove what he's saying about Sepharadim and Ashkenazim. There isn't a Rabbi alive who can come up with a justification of what we do today which contradicts the Mishna, Talmudh, Tur, and ShulHan Arukh.

If you listen to his shiurim and look up everything he says, you will see that he speaks the truth and there is no hareidi or dati leumi Rav that can disprove him. Not Ovadia Yosef and not Rav Elyashiv.

NO ONE.

machonshilo.org is the place to be for truth-seekers.

Thanks. I can understand. Ive listened to alot of Rabbi David Bar Chaim's shiurim, he has a lot of interesting points. I had a question for him. He says to wear Techelet, but which 1 does he say to wear, is it the Murex?

Offline nopeaceforland

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Re: Ultra Orthodox Jews Vs The Secular Israeli State
« Reply #21 on: November 29, 2007, 11:03:29 PM »
What I don't understand is: Israel is a Jewish state? I must reiterate: A JEWISH STATE. Hence it SHOULD be a Jewish Theocracy! If seculars don't like it, then there's other countries around the world that they can take refuge in. Help me JTF'ers, If you know Israel is a Jewish State, and you're Jewish, wouldn't you appreciate a theocracy of your religious peers? Help me out, because I'm lost!

Offline Tzvi Ben Roshel1

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Re: Ultra Orthodox Jews Vs The Secular Israeli State
« Reply #22 on: November 30, 2007, 10:35:11 AM »
What I don't understand is: Israel is a Jewish state? I must reiterate: A JEWISH STATE. Hence it SHOULD be a Jewish Theocracy! If seculars don't like it, then there's other countries around the world that they can take refuge in. Help me JTF'ers, If you know Israel is a Jewish State, and you're Jewish, wouldn't you appreciate a theocracy of your religious peers? Help me out, because I'm lost!

They wouldnt becuase then that would mean that they would have to keep mitzvot (ohh my G-d that would be the end of the world), and the secular entity would loose its power.
The Academy of Elijah taught, whoever studies the laws (of the Torah) every day, (he) is guaranteed to have a share in the World to Come.

‏119:139 צִמְּתַתְנִי קִנְאָתִי כִּישָׁכְחוּ דְבָרֶיךָ צָרָי
My zeal incenses me, for my adversaries have forgotten Your words.
‏119:141 צָעִיר אָנֹכִי וְנִבְזֶה פִּקֻּדֶיךָ, לֹא שָׁכָחְתִּי.
 I am young and despised; I have not forgotten Your precepts.

" A fool does not realize, and an unwise person does not understand this (i.e. the following:) When the wicked bloom like grass, and the evildoers blossom (i.e. when they seem extremly successful), it is to destroy them forever (i.e. they are rewarded for their few good deeds in this World, and they will have no portion in the World to Come!)

Please visit: (The Greatest lectures on Earth).
http://torahanytime.com/
http://www.torahanytime.com/Rabbi/Yossi_Mizrachi/
http://www.torahanytime.com/Rabbi/Zecharia_Wallerstein/

Offline Dominater96

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Re: Ultra Orthodox Jews Vs The Secular Israeli State
« Reply #23 on: November 30, 2007, 02:02:55 PM »
There are very serious problems with "Normal" Hareidim.

I know, because I live with them and considered myself to be one until very recently.

The problem is that the attitude of "Normal" Hareidim is EXACTLY what is holding up the Geulah.

The attitude that Judaism is only what goes on in the bedroom and the kitchen, and not the all-encompassing Law that we are supposed  to impose on a state level is why we don't have Geulah.

If the Normal Hareidi View of Judaism would stop being the view being followed and the Judaism of say Joshua or Ezra or Rabbi Yehudha HaNasi were what we followed, there would be a Temple standing on Har HaBayith.

You ever wonder why Hareidim don't learn Tanakh, or even for G-d's sake Mesekhtoth of the Gemara that are of practical use like Berakhoth or Hulin.

The reason they start young kids off with oxen goring each other and what if someone digs a hole on main street or what do we do if two people claim the same peice of cloth is so that the Torah remains "lore" and not "Law" in the eye of the young Hareidi.

They literally want the Torah to be impractical and irrelevant so that Jews will not ever wake up one day and say "Rambam, Hatham Sofer, Sefer HaHinukh, Minhath Hinukh, Rabbi Yechiel of Paris the list is practically endless. They ALL say that we are obligated to build the Temple right now!!!!!!   Why aren't we doing it?"

And what answer could you possible give the masses if they ever realized that?

That the greatest Rabbis are too cowardly to enforce what the Torah clearly commands us to do?

It's the truth, but it is hard to take.

Besides something as large as the Temple, there various other things that Rabbis don't want their flock to realize.

A) Tahanun is supposed to be said in full prostration (HishtaHawaya) on the ground. This is clear from the numerous places when Tahanun is mentioned as well as from the Rambam in his Mishne Torah. Why we don't do it that way to day and instead sit with our arms placed in a strange manner on our head is a tragedy.

B) There is no such thing Halakhically as Ashkenazim and Sepharadim. According to Halakha, Minhagim go according to the place, not the person or his father. There is no Halakhic basis whatsoever for the idea that Ashkenazim and Sepharadim must maintain cultural or even Halakhic seperate identities when they live together whether in New York or Jerusalem. Most Rabbis are so stuck in the past that actually unifying the Jewish people(which the Maharal says will end the Galuth immediately) is completely beyond their capabilities.

C) Tzitzith is NOT underwear. It is supposed to attached to your outermost garment. The fact that we stuff an uncomfortable and illogical rectangular "garment" under our shirts is a tragedy.

D) The Herem of Rabbenu Gershom was never accepted in Eretz Yisrael, therefore any Jew living there can take a second, third, or even a hundredth wife with no problem according to Halakha. Public knowledge of this would radically change the culture of Galuth Judaism and is therefore suppressed.

E) The Hebrew spoken today whether modern, Sephardic, or Ashkenazic is full of errors. The true pronunciation is well know because Rav Saadya Gaon detailed it 1100 years ago. The fact that VERY few Jews follow the correct pronuncitation and instead feel the need to be loyal to whatever mistakes were common in the country of his great-grandfather's birth is a tragedy.

F) Jews do NOT have to listen to Gedolei HaTorah. If they formed a Sanhedrin, we would have to. Since they are too cowardly to do so, we don't. The Sanhedrin is something that Rabbis are afraid of, because it would require change of a major order as ANY Sanhedrin would have the right to argue and change practically any Halakha whether in Shulhan Arukh, THe Talmudh or even the Mishna. That fact is frightening to establishment Rabbis. They know it and they're scared to death.

I could go on and on. And in view of the myriad of Halakhic truths being suppressed, I call normative Hareidi Judaism a cult.

Yes, I do.

The reason that Tanakh is never learned is simple.

The Tanakh relates to Jews solely as a nation and NOT a religion. That is dangerous to the way most Jews view Judaism and therefore, it is not learned by Hareidim. Because if you learned Tanakh, you might discover or attempt to emulate Moshe, Yehoshua, Daweedh, Shelomo, Ezra and so forth. We can't have that, can we? Therefore among Hareidim, the Tanakh itself is suppressed. What a tragedy!!!!!! What an obscenity!!!!!!!!! What an abomination!!!!!!!!

If you, Tzvi, can contradict anything that I have written, I will take it back.

Until then, you'll just have to deal with the truth.



Can you provide a source for A) about Tahanun. Also is your Rabbi, David Bar Chaim?

Yes, here is the source Rambam Hilkhoth Tefilah, Pereq Hamesh Halakha  Shesh Esre or Maimonides Laws of prayer chapter five Law Sixteen.

טז   כִּשְׁהוּא עוֹשֶׂה נְפִילַת פָּנִים אַחַר תְּפִלָּה, יֵשׁ מִי שְׁהוּא עוֹשֶׂה קִדָּה, וְיֵשׁ מִי שְׁהוּא עוֹשֶׂה הִשְׁתַּחֲוָיָה; וְאָסוּר לַעֲשׂוֹת הִשְׁתַּחֲוָיָה עַל הָאֲבָנִים אֵלָא בַּמִּקְדָּשׁ, כְּמוֹ שֶׁבֵּאַרְנוּ בְּהִלְכּוֹת עֲבוֹדָה זָרָה.  וְאֵין אָדָם חָשׁוּב רַשָּׁאי לִפֹּל עַל פָּנָיו, אֵלָא אִם כֵּן הוּא יוֹדֵעַ בְּעַצְמוֹ שְׁהוּא צַדִּיק כִּיהוֹשׁוּעַ; אֲבָל מַטֶּה הוּא פָּנָיו מְעַט, וְאֵינוּ כּוֹבֵשׁ אוֹתָם בַּקַּרְקָע.  וּמֻתָּר לָאָדָם לְהִתְפַּלַּל בְּמָקוֹם זֶה, וְלִנְפֹּל עַל פָּנָיו בְּמָקוֹם אַחֵר.

Can you read and understand it, Dominator or do you need me to translate?

Also the two Halakhoth immediately preceding this one explain what is Kri'Ah, Qeedha and HishtaHawaya.

יד  [יג] הִשְׁתַּחֲוָיָה כֵּיצַד:  אַחַר שֶׁמַּגְבִּיהַּ רֹאשׁוֹ מִכְּרִיעָה חֲמִישִׁית, יוֹשֵׁב לָאָרֶץ, וְנוֹפֵל עַל פָּנָיו אָרְצָה, וּמִתְחַנֵּן בְּכָל הַתַּחֲנוּנִים שֶׁיִּרְצֶה.

טו  כְּרִיעָה הָאֲמוּרָה בְּכָל מָקוֹם, עַל בִּרְכַּיִם; קִדָּה, עַל אַפַּיִם; הִשְׁתַּחֲוָיָה--זוֹ פִּשּׁוּט יָדַיִם וְרַגְלַיִם, עַד שֶׁנִּמְצָא מוּטָל עַל פָּנָיו עַל הָאָרֶץ.



And yes, I can proudly say that Rabbi Daweedh Bar Hayim is the most extraordinarily truthful and brilliant and Strong Rabbi I have ever met. He is helping to pulling me out of Boro Park mentally and physically and sending me to Judea, mentally and physically.

His Torah and only his Torah is capable of wiping the Galuth off of us.

And NO Rabbi can disprove what he's saying about Sepharadim and Ashkenazim. There isn't a Rabbi alive who can come up with a justification of what we do today which contradicts the Mishna, Talmudh, Tur, and ShulHan Arukh.

If you listen to his shiurim and look up everything he says, you will see that he speaks the truth and there is no hareidi or dati leumi Rav that can disprove him. Not Ovadia Yosef and not Rav Elyashiv.

NO ONE.

machonshilo.org is the place to be for truth-seekers.

I got a couple answers about the Nefilat Apayim. One was that the Ari said that it was "dangerous" according to the Kabbalah, that we go to a different world, and may not come back, this all according to Kabbalah. The second was that it isnt proper to bow down on marble.There was one more answer but i forgot it.

Offline judeanoncapta

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Re: Ultra Orthodox Jews Vs The Secular Israeli State
« Reply #24 on: December 25, 2007, 10:37:54 PM »
There are very serious problems with "Normal" Hareidim.

I know, because I live with them and considered myself to be one until very recently.

The problem is that the attitude of "Normal" Hareidim is EXACTLY what is holding up the Geulah.

The attitude that Judaism is only what goes on in the bedroom and the kitchen, and not the all-encompassing Law that we are supposed  to impose on a state level is why we don't have Geulah.

If the Normal Hareidi View of Judaism would stop being the view being followed and the Judaism of say Joshua or Ezra or Rabbi Yehudha HaNasi were what we followed, there would be a Temple standing on Har HaBayith.

You ever wonder why Hareidim don't learn Tanakh, or even for G-d's sake Mesekhtoth of the Gemara that are of practical use like Berakhoth or Hulin.

The reason they start young kids off with oxen goring each other and what if someone digs a hole on main street or what do we do if two people claim the same peice of cloth is so that the Torah remains "lore" and not "Law" in the eye of the young Hareidi.

They literally want the Torah to be impractical and irrelevant so that Jews will not ever wake up one day and say "Rambam, Hatham Sofer, Sefer HaHinukh, Minhath Hinukh, Rabbi Yechiel of Paris the list is practically endless. They ALL say that we are obligated to build the Temple right now!!!!!!   Why aren't we doing it?"

And what answer could you possible give the masses if they ever realized that?

That the greatest Rabbis are too cowardly to enforce what the Torah clearly commands us to do?

It's the truth, but it is hard to take.

Besides something as large as the Temple, there various other things that Rabbis don't want their flock to realize.

A) Tahanun is supposed to be said in full prostration (HishtaHawaya) on the ground. This is clear from the numerous places when Tahanun is mentioned as well as from the Rambam in his Mishne Torah. Why we don't do it that way to day and instead sit with our arms placed in a strange manner on our head is a tragedy.

B) There is no such thing Halakhically as Ashkenazim and Sepharadim. According to Halakha, Minhagim go according to the place, not the person or his father. There is no Halakhic basis whatsoever for the idea that Ashkenazim and Sepharadim must maintain cultural or even Halakhic seperate identities when they live together whether in New York or Jerusalem. Most Rabbis are so stuck in the past that actually unifying the Jewish people(which the Maharal says will end the Galuth immediately) is completely beyond their capabilities.

C) Tzitzith is NOT underwear. It is supposed to attached to your outermost garment. The fact that we stuff an uncomfortable and illogical rectangular "garment" under our shirts is a tragedy.

D) The Herem of Rabbenu Gershom was never accepted in Eretz Yisrael, therefore any Jew living there can take a second, third, or even a hundredth wife with no problem according to Halakha. Public knowledge of this would radically change the culture of Galuth Judaism and is therefore suppressed.

E) The Hebrew spoken today whether modern, Sefardic, or Ashkenazic is full of errors. The true pronunciation is well know because Rav Saadya Gaon detailed it 1100 years ago. The fact that VERY few Jews follow the correct pronuncitation and instead feel the need to be loyal to whatever mistakes were common in the country of his great-grandfather's birth is a tragedy.

F) Jews do NOT have to listen to Gedolei HaTorah. If they formed a Sanhedrin, we would have to. Since they are too cowardly to do so, we don't. The Sanhedrin is something that Rabbis are afraid of, because it would require change of a major order as ANY Sanhedrin would have the right to argue and change practically any Halakha whether in Shulhan Arukh, THe Talmudh or even the Mishna. That fact is frightening to establishment Rabbis. They know it and they're scared to death.

I could go on and on. And in view of the myriad of Halakhic truths being suppressed, I call normative Hareidi Judaism a cult.

Yes, I do.

The reason that Tanakh is never learned is simple.

The Tanakh relates to Jews solely as a nation and NOT a religion. That is dangerous to the way most Jews view Judaism and therefore, it is not learned by Hareidim. Because if you learned Tanakh, you might discover or attempt to emulate Moshe, Yehoshua, Daweedh, Shelomo, Ezra and so forth. We can't have that, can we? Therefore among Hareidim, the Tanakh itself is suppressed. What a tragedy!!!!!! What an obscenity!!!!!!!!! What an abomination!!!!!!!!

If you, Tzvi, can contradict anything that I have written, I will take it back.

Until then, you'll just have to deal with the truth.



Can you provide a source for A) about Tahanun. Also is your Rabbi, David Bar Chaim?

Yes, here is the source Rambam Hilkhoth Tefilah, Pereq Hamesh Halakha  Shesh Esre or Maimonides Laws of prayer chapter five Law Sixteen.

טז   כִּשְׁהוּא עוֹשֶׂה נְפִילַת פָּנִים אַחַר תְּפִלָּה, יֵשׁ מִי שְׁהוּא עוֹשֶׂה קִדָּה, וְיֵשׁ מִי שְׁהוּא עוֹשֶׂה הִשְׁתַּחֲוָיָה; וְאָסוּר לַעֲשׂוֹת הִשְׁתַּחֲוָיָה עַל הָאֲבָנִים אֵלָא בַּמִּקְדָּשׁ, כְּמוֹ שֶׁבֵּאַרְנוּ בְּהִלְכּוֹת עֲבוֹדָה זָרָה.  וְאֵין אָדָם חָשׁוּב רַשָּׁאי לִפֹּל עַל פָּנָיו, אֵלָא אִם כֵּן הוּא יוֹדֵעַ בְּעַצְמוֹ שְׁהוּא צַדִּיק כִּיהוֹשׁוּעַ; אֲבָל מַטֶּה הוּא פָּנָיו מְעַט, וְאֵינוּ כּוֹבֵשׁ אוֹתָם בַּקַּרְקָע.  וּמֻתָּר לָאָדָם לְהִתְפַּלַּל בְּמָקוֹם זֶה, וְלִנְפֹּל עַל פָּנָיו בְּמָקוֹם אַחֵר.

Can you read and understand it, Dominator or do you need me to translate?

Also the two Halakhoth immediately preceding this one explain what is Kri'Ah, Qeedha and HishtaHawaya.

יד  [יג] הִשְׁתַּחֲוָיָה כֵּיצַד:  אַחַר שֶׁמַּגְבִּיהַּ רֹאשׁוֹ מִכְּרִיעָה חֲמִישִׁית, יוֹשֵׁב לָאָרֶץ, וְנוֹפֵל עַל פָּנָיו אָרְצָה, וּמִתְחַנֵּן בְּכָל הַתַּחֲנוּנִים שֶׁיִּרְצֶה.

טו  כְּרִיעָה הָאֲמוּרָה בְּכָל מָקוֹם, עַל בִּרְכַּיִם; קִדָּה, עַל אַפַּיִם; הִשְׁתַּחֲוָיָה--זוֹ פִּשּׁוּט יָדַיִם וְרַגְלַיִם, עַד שֶׁנִּמְצָא מוּטָל עַל פָּנָיו עַל הָאָרֶץ.



And yes, I can proudly say that Rabbi Daweedh Bar Hayim is the most extraordinarily truthful and brilliant and Strong Rabbi I have ever met. He is helping to pulling me out of Boro Park mentally and physically and sending me to Judea, mentally and physically.

His Torah and only his Torah is capable of wiping the Galuth off of us.

And NO Rabbi can disprove what he's saying about Sepharadim and Ashkenazim. There isn't a Rabbi alive who can come up with a justification of what we do today which contradicts the Mishna, Talmudh, Tur, and ShulHan Arukh.

If you listen to his shiurim and look up everything he says, you will see that he speaks the truth and there is no hareidi or dati leumi Rav that can disprove him. Not Ovadia Yosef and not Rav Elyashiv.

NO ONE.

machonshilo.org is the place to be for truth-seekers.

Thanks. I can understand. Ive listened to alot of Rabbi David Bar Chaim's shiurim, he has a lot of interesting points. I had a question for him. He says to wear Techelet, but which 1 does he say to wear, is it the Murex?

Yes, the Murex is the true Tekheleth.
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Who is truly wise? He who can see the future. I see tommorow today and I want to end it - Rabbi Meir Daweedh Kahana