Author Topic: Religious who refuse to serve in the army  (Read 7422 times)

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Offline Eliezer Ben Avraham

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Religious who refuse to serve in the army
« on: January 06, 2008, 10:00:07 PM »
I find it so hypocritical of these religious for refusing to serve in the army. Judaism goes beyond study and into a way of life, does not Pirkei Avot say, "Anyone whose deeds exceed his wisdom, his wisdom will endure. Anyone whose wisdom exceeds his deeds, his wisdom will not endure." The wisdom and study has to go along with deeds and we cannot separate the two.
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Offline MarZutra

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Re: Religious who refuse to serve in the army
« Reply #1 on: January 07, 2008, 12:24:16 AM »
If they do not send their sons to defend our land they should be deported back to Poland, Germany, France or Lithewania......   Judaism is very clear about the Land of Israel...it is their cultural interpretation of some Talmudic passage that prevents these people, like the Naturi Karta, from having any relationship with this State of Israel... 
"‘Vehorashtem/Numbers 33:53’: When you burn out the Land’s inhabitants, you will merit to bestow upon your children the Land as an inheritance. If you do not burn them out, then even if you conquer the Land, you will not merit to allot it to your children as an inheritance." - Ovadiah ben Yacov Sforno; Italian Rabbi, Biblical Commentator, Philosopher and Physician.  1475-1550.

Offline Ambiorix

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Re: Religious who refuse to serve in the army
« Reply #2 on: January 07, 2008, 12:44:31 AM »
That's reasonable.

Turkey must get out of NATO. NATO must get out of Kosovo-Serbia. Croats must get out of Crajina. All muslims must get out of Christian and Jewish land. Turks must get out of Cyprus. Turks must get out of "Istanbul". "Palestinians" must get out of Israel. Israel must become independent from USA.

Offline JTFFan

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Re: Religious who refuse to serve in the army
« Reply #3 on: January 07, 2008, 02:26:13 AM »
reasonable ;)

Offline Eliezer Ben Avraham

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Re: Religious who refuse to serve in the army
« Reply #4 on: January 07, 2008, 11:00:22 PM »
If they do not send their sons to defend our land they should be deported back to Poland, Germany, France or Lithewania......   Judaism is very clear about the Land of Israel...it is their cultural interpretation of some Talmudic passage that prevents these people, like the Naturi Karta, from having any relationship with this State of Israel... 
I remember reading Rabbi Kahane's article on Neturei Karta, and at the time he was angry how people were not criticizing neturei karta as much as regular secular leftists, he said "beards are no exception"
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Offline OdKahaneChai

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Re: Religious who refuse to serve in the army
« Reply #5 on: January 07, 2008, 11:08:09 PM »
If they do not send their sons to defend our land they should be deported back to Poland, Germany, France or Lithewania......   Judaism is very clear about the Land of Israel...it is their cultural interpretation of some Talmudic passage that prevents these people, like the Naturi Karta, from having any relationship with this State of Israel... 
I remember reading Rabbi Kahane's article on Neturei Karta, and at the time he was angry how people were not criticizing neturei karta as much as regular secular leftists, he said "beards are no exception"
It was "Beards Carry No Immunity."

And, honestly, with the state of the Army today, how could you blame any Religious Jew who would rather learn in Yeshiva than serve in the Army that expelled his brothers from their homes?

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Offline Eliezer Ben Avraham

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Re: Religious who refuse to serve in the army
« Reply #6 on: January 12, 2008, 10:02:58 PM »
If they do not send their sons to defend our land they should be deported back to Poland, Germany, France or Lithewania......   Judaism is very clear about the Land of Israel...it is their cultural interpretation of some Talmudic passage that prevents these people, like the Naturi Karta, from having any relationship with this State of Israel... 
I remember reading Rabbi Kahane's article on Neturei Karta, and at the time he was angry how people were not criticizing neturei karta as much as regular secular leftists, he said "beards are no exception"
It was "Beards Carry No Immunity."

And, honestly, with the state of the Army today, how could you blame any Religious Jew who would rather learn in Yeshiva than serve in the Army that expelled his brothers from their homes?
true, but still to refuse to fight in Lebanon is abhorrent
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Offline judeanoncapta

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Re: Religious who refuse to serve in the army
« Reply #7 on: January 25, 2008, 04:06:39 PM »
You will never get the religious Jews to go into the Army without a complete revolution of Halakhic thinking on the part of today's rabbinic intelligentsia.
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Re: Religious who refuse to serve in the army
« Reply #8 on: January 25, 2008, 04:09:33 PM »
If they do not send their sons to defend our land they should be deported back to Poland, Germany, France or Lithewania......   Judaism is very clear about the Land of Israel...it is their cultural interpretation of some Talmudic passage that prevents these people, like the Naturi Karta, from having any relationship with this State of Israel... 
I remember reading Rabbi Kahane's article on Neturei Karta, and at the time he was angry how people were not criticizing neturei karta as much as regular secular leftists, he said "beards are no exception"
It was "Beards Carry No Immunity."

And, honestly, with the state of the Army today, how could you blame any Religious Jew who would rather learn in Yeshiva than serve in the Army that expelled his brothers from their homes?

It's got nothing to do with the 'state of the army today'. They've refused to serve since 1948.

Offline jdl4ever

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Re: Religious who refuse to serve in the army
« Reply #9 on: January 26, 2008, 08:06:14 PM »
Because many of the "religious Haredim" are not really "religious" when you compare them to the Jews in the Torah and the Tanach who all served in the army.  They make up some nonsense derived from a misreading of the Talmud that "all learners" never served in the Army but that isn't really true, that was only a select few Prophets and Torah scholars as even King David and his brothers served in the Army and he was a Torah genious. That's why many Charedim don't study the Tanach because it makes them look stupid.
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Offline OdKahaneChai

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Re: Religious who refuse to serve in the army
« Reply #10 on: January 26, 2008, 08:49:44 PM »
Because many of the "religious Haredim" are not really "religious" when you compare them to the Jews in the Torah and the Tanach who all served in the army.  They make up some nonsense derived from a misreading of the Talmud that "all learners" never served in the Army but that isn't really true, that was only a select few Prophets and Torah scholars as even King David and his brothers served in the Army and he was a Torah genious. That's why many Charedim don't study the Tanach because it makes them look stupid.
I don't know about other Charedim, but the Rebbe ZY"A taught that one should learn an aliyah of Chumash every day.

One does not deal with terrorists; one does not bargain with terrorists; one kills terrorists.
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Offline MarZutra

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Re: Religious who refuse to serve in the army
« Reply #11 on: January 27, 2008, 03:01:24 PM »
Beards Carry No Immunity

By Rabbi Meir Kahane z"tl h"yd

Published originally on November 10th 1989

“And Judah too, shall fight against Jerusalem...” (Zechariah 14)

The briefest of hints, but a chilling one: that in the end of days, Judah, Jews, will join the gentile enemy in war against Jerusalem. And behold, we see it in our days. The self hating Jewish anti-Semite. The Jew who fights his own people, who joins with the enemy of Jerusalem in battle against Jerusalem.

Disturbed Michael Lerner of Tikkun Magazine carried a “revised” list of sins for which we should beat our breasts on Yom Kippur as we recite Al Het (for the sin). For example:

“For the sins we have committed by not publicly criticizing the Jewish people and Israel when they are acting as oppressors.”

“For not recognizing the humanity and pain of the Palestinian people.”

The same disturbance places an expensive full page ad in The New York Times with the huge headline: “No, Mr. Shamir. Don’t assume that American Jews support your policies toward the Palestinians.”

Moshe Arens’ son, Professor Yigal Arens of the University of California, creates a group called Jewish Committee on the Middle East (JCOME) and places a large ad in several publications. It reads, in part:

“We are Americans and Jews and we come together at this time to publicly express our strong desire to see the US take meaningful steps to disassociate our country from the policies of Israel... We can no longer condone or be associated with such Israeli behavior, nor, do we believe should our country.”

And Arens and his fellow Jews then call upon the United States to cut economic and military aid to Israel. Thus:

"For these reasons, we believe the time has come to normalize the U.S. relationship with Israel. A complete re-evaluation of what has become, since 1967, the American sponsorship of Israel, is required. The unprecedented amounts of economic aid should be cut back over the next two to three years to much smaller levels. Furthermore, the considerable military and intelligence assistance should also be radically reduced."

A Jew named Lenny Brenner writes a viciously anti-Semitic book, Jews in America Today, which is grist for the mill of every Nazi and Jew-hater.

And then there is another Jewish group.

The article appeared in the Magazine, The Message International, a fundamentalist Moslem publication that is venomously opposed to the existence of Israel. It began this way:

"We participate together with the Palestinian people in their anguish and suffering. We feel their intense pain and frustration resulting from the cruel oppression they are enduring under the brutal Zionist occupation of their Palestinian homeland. This is especially so since we understand the overwhelming justice of their right to self-determination and statehood in their beloved Palestine. A yearning that burns fervently to be free and sovereign in their native land."

The article was written by a Jewish group and continued with:

"The genuine Jewish people recognize the Palestinian people as the legal sovereign over their entire land, not just the West Bank and Gaza. The Zionists have absolutely no right to rule the land."

The same Jewish group issued the following statement as part of a pamphlet issued September 15, 1982:

"We pledge allegiance to the kosher state of Palestine represented by the PLO, patriotic freedom fighters in the honorable cause of humanity."

The same group regularly inserts advertisements in The New York Times attacking the existence of Israel, and on March 3, 1989, the Israeli newspaper Davar carried a picture of one of the group's leaders visiting Arabs wounded in the uprising against Israel. He handed out $12, 000 to various wounded Arabs and presented the Moslem Red Crescent (the equivalent of the Red Cross) $3, 000 for the intifada "victims." Each Arab received a bag of sweets along with a personal letter wishing him a speedy recovery.

All of the above share a common denominator: Jews attacking the Jewish state , Judah fighting against Jerusalem. But one group differs radically from all the others. While all the others are secular, generally leftist Jews, the latter is an Orthodox one - Neturei Karta.

And while much fire and brimstone has been poured on the heads of Lerner and Arens and all the other secular and leftist Jews, there has been an unconscionable failure on the part of religious Jews to speak out against the traitors and enemies of both Israel and the Jewish people who call themselves Neturei Karta. That is inexcusable.

Let me make it quite clear that it is totally legitimate for one to be an anti-Zionist and to disagree with the fundamental concept of a Jewish state in our times, because of religious reasons. There is certainly source material for that position in Torah sources, even though those who use it to deny the legitimate halachic status of Israel are, I believe, very very wrong. I believe that the Jewish state is G-d's hand, that the well known "oaths" in Tractace Ketubot that are used to deny the right to a Jewish state until the coming of the Messiah are interpreted totally wrong and that Religious Zionism is not only proper, but mandatory and obligatory.

Nevertheless, I certainly recognize the right of Jews to religiously differ, though wrong. That is not why I feel that Jews should rise up in anger at Neturei Karta and use all means necessary to punish them. It is not their anti-Zionism which is criminal and which places them beyond the pale. It is rather the fact that they openly support the enemies of the Jewish people, the murderous and vicious Arab Nazis of the PLO, that places the Neturei Karta outside the Jewish camp.

There is a red line in Judaism that cannot be crossed without becoming a traitor to and enemy of the Jewish people. There is a limit that, once reached and violated, marks one as a moser, an informer, and a rodef, a pursuer of Jews, who is plotting to destroy them. That line and limit is the joining together, openly and eagerly and without shame with the enemy who wishes to harm and destroy Jews. Neturei Karta has become the enemy within the Jewish camp, the moser and rodef that should be dealt with in all the ways that are necessary.

It does not matter that they comprise a handful. Their insignificant numbers are unimportant. The substantive nature of their treachery and Hillul Hashem, desecration of the Name, are what matter.

In their obscene words and actions on behalf of the PLO Nazis, do they differ from those leftist Israelis who meet with and support the PLO? In their open support to the Hitlerite Arabs, are they different from Yigal Arens, or Noam Chomsky, or Lenny Brenner or the other disturbed leftist Jews who aid the destruction of Israel? Is venom against Jews and hatred of the Jewish State somehow mitigated because the individual has a beard? Do payot (earlocks) and a long black coat cover the treacherous nakedness of the moser and rodef? Does someone who joins hands, literally, with those who would massacre Jews become more legitimate because he covers his abomination with the mantle of the “Torah”?

I do not think so. I know that there is no difference except that the so-called religious Jew, in addition to his teacher, also desecrates the name of G-d and his Torah. Jewish silence, religious Jewish silence, is inexcusable. The time is long overdue for unified Torah condemnation of Neturei Karta and the same kind of action against them that we would deem proper for those traitors who walk around beardless. After all, many is the “religious” Jew whose beard merely covers an unshaven face, and whose piety is but a fig leaf for the same diseased soul as that which possesses all the traitors on the left.
"‘Vehorashtem/Numbers 33:53’: When you burn out the Land’s inhabitants, you will merit to bestow upon your children the Land as an inheritance. If you do not burn them out, then even if you conquer the Land, you will not merit to allot it to your children as an inheritance." - Ovadiah ben Yacov Sforno; Italian Rabbi, Biblical Commentator, Philosopher and Physician.  1475-1550.

Offline Eliezer Ben Avraham

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Re: Religious who refuse to serve in the army
« Reply #12 on: January 27, 2008, 10:52:01 PM »
Because many of the "religious Haredim" are not really "religious" when you compare them to the Jews in the Torah and the Tanach who all served in the army.  They make up some nonsense derived from a misreading of the Talmud that "all learners" never served in the Army but that isn't really true, that was only a select few Prophets and Torah scholars as even King David and his brothers served in the Army and he was a Torah genious. That's why many Charedim don't study the Tanach because it makes them look stupid.
Not to mention Rabbi Akiva, who fought against the Romans. Judaism doesn't exist only in theory, there are concrete actions we must perform (mitzvot), the purpose of studying is to better understand the mitzvot, so that we can perform them properly
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newman

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Re: Religious who refuse to serve in the army
« Reply #13 on: January 27, 2008, 11:02:43 PM »
Because many of the "religious Haredim" are not really "religious" when you compare them to the Jews in the Torah and the Tanach who all served in the army.  They make up some nonsense derived from a misreading of the Talmud that "all learners" never served in the Army but that isn't really true, that was only a select few Prophets and Torah scholars as even King David and his brothers served in the Army and he was a Torah genious. That's why many Charedim don't study the Tanach because it makes them look stupid.

Even in the haredi military units they refuse to carry female soldiers on stretchers during exercises/training.

Where does the Tanach OR Talmud say you cannot carry a wounded Jewess to safety?

Offline Eliezer Ben Avraham

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Re: Religious who refuse to serve in the army
« Reply #14 on: January 27, 2008, 11:19:32 PM »
Because many of the "religious Haredim" are not really "religious" when you compare them to the Jews in the Torah and the Tanach who all served in the army.  They make up some nonsense derived from a misreading of the Talmud that "all learners" never served in the Army but that isn't really true, that was only a select few Prophets and Torah scholars as even King David and his brothers served in the Army and he was a Torah genious. That's why many Charedim don't study the Tanach because it makes them look stupid.

Even in the haredi military units they refuse to carry female soldiers on stretchers during exercises/training.

Where does the Tanach OR Talmud say you cannot carry a wounded Jewess to safety?
in training I guess it could be argued, in real combat obviously the Pikuach Nefesh (saving a life) takes priority
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newman

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Re: Religious who refuse to serve in the army
« Reply #15 on: January 27, 2008, 11:24:38 PM »
Because many of the "religious Haredim" are not really "religious" when you compare them to the Jews in the Torah and the Tanach who all served in the army.  They make up some nonsense derived from a misreading of the Talmud that "all learners" never served in the Army but that isn't really true, that was only a select few Prophets and Torah scholars as even King David and his brothers served in the Army and he was a Torah genious. That's why many Charedim don't study the Tanach because it makes them look stupid.

Even in the haredi military units they refuse to carry female soldiers on stretchers during exercises/training.

Where does the Tanach OR Talmud say you cannot carry a wounded Jewess to safety?
in training I guess it could be argued, in real combat obviously the Pikuach Nefesh (saving a life) takes priority

But in order to do it effectively in 'real combat' one must train out of combat.

Can haredi doctors touch female patients?

Offline Gruzinit

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Re: Religious who refuse to serve in the army
« Reply #16 on: January 28, 2008, 12:26:48 AM »
It might not be a Biblical scholar, but I'm sure that when Moses could be considered one of the First Commanders of the IDF. Leading a nation of people through a desert is no easy task, especialyy against raiders and thieves. Men had to be trained in some sort of strategic and defensive combat.

Let us not also forget Joshua, Moses sucessor. He was commander of their first against the Amalekites, lead the conquest of Canaan (which became Israel) and the Siege of Jericho.

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Offline Ultra Requete

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Re: Religious who refuse to serve in the army
« Reply #17 on: January 28, 2008, 04:59:45 AM »
Service in IDF is a way to obtain free training in weapons use, military and anti guerilla tactics something you can't get easily in Israel where Jews are disarmed by their "own" goverment. such knowledge may save your life in the future... It's better than tryng to form militia units which are instantly inflirtrated by Shabak... Piss now is  frightened becouse the comabt units IDF are dominated by rightwingers  and rightly so... ;)
Jeremiah 8:11-17

11 They dress the wound of my people as though it were not serious. Peace, peace, they say, when there is no peace.

12 Are they ashamed of their loathsome conduct? No, they have no shame at all; they do not even know how to blush. So they will fall among the fallen; they will be brought down when they are punished, says the LORD.

13 'I will take away their harvest, declares the LORD. There will be no grapes on the vine. There will be no figs on the tree, and their leaves will wither. What I have given them will be taken from them.'

14 Why are we sitting here? Gather together! Let us flee to the fortified cities and perish there! For the LORD our God has doomed us to perish and given us poisoned water to drink, because we have sinned against him.

15 We hoped for peace but no good has come, for a time of healing but there was only terror.

16 The snorting of the enemy's horses is heard from Dan; at the neighing of their stallions the whole land trembles. They have come to devour the land and everything in it, the city and all who live there.

17 See, I will send venomous snakes among you, vipers that cannot be charmed, and they will bite you, declares the LORD.

Love your Enemy
And Heap Burning Coals on his Head!!!
http://net-burst.net/revenge/love_and_wrath_of_God.htm

Offline Eliezer Ben Avraham

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Re: Religious who refuse to serve in the army
« Reply #18 on: January 28, 2008, 10:23:58 PM »
Service in IDF is a way to obtain free training in weapons use, military and anti guerilla tactics something you can't get easily in Israel where Jews are disarmed by their "own" goverment. such knowledge may save your life in the future... It's better than tryng to form militia units which are instantly inflirtrated by Shabak... Piss now is  frightened becouse the comabt units IDF are dominated by rightwingers  and rightly so... ;)
unfortunately you also get the dishonor of belonging to an organization that kicks Jews out of their homes
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Offline Ultra Requete

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Re: Religious who refuse to serve in the army
« Reply #19 on: January 29, 2008, 03:31:08 AM »
Its IDF or US Army For American Jews when you have dubius honour of implementing "democracy" based on sharia law in Iraq or Afganistan. And mayority of those doing the evictions are Police Stosstrupen and border guards, the Tsahal is ordered to do external security becouse the regualr soldiers are not trusted to do the dirty job by goverment. The situation is similar to 1936 Spain.   
Jeremiah 8:11-17

11 They dress the wound of my people as though it were not serious. Peace, peace, they say, when there is no peace.

12 Are they ashamed of their loathsome conduct? No, they have no shame at all; they do not even know how to blush. So they will fall among the fallen; they will be brought down when they are punished, says the LORD.

13 'I will take away their harvest, declares the LORD. There will be no grapes on the vine. There will be no figs on the tree, and their leaves will wither. What I have given them will be taken from them.'

14 Why are we sitting here? Gather together! Let us flee to the fortified cities and perish there! For the LORD our God has doomed us to perish and given us poisoned water to drink, because we have sinned against him.

15 We hoped for peace but no good has come, for a time of healing but there was only terror.

16 The snorting of the enemy's horses is heard from Dan; at the neighing of their stallions the whole land trembles. They have come to devour the land and everything in it, the city and all who live there.

17 See, I will send venomous snakes among you, vipers that cannot be charmed, and they will bite you, declares the LORD.

Love your Enemy
And Heap Burning Coals on his Head!!!
http://net-burst.net/revenge/love_and_wrath_of_God.htm

Offline Eliezer Ben Avraham

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Re: Religious who refuse to serve in the army
« Reply #20 on: January 30, 2008, 10:32:12 PM »
Its IDF or US Army For American Jews when you have dubius honour of implementing "democracy" based on sharia law in Iraq or Afganistan. And mayority of those doing the evictions are Police Stosstrupen and border guards, the Tsahal is ordered to do external security becouse the regualr soldiers are not trusted to do the dirty job by goverment. The situation is similar to 1936 Spain.   
well the government got russians and leftists to expel Jews from their homes, not many religious participated
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