Torah and Jewish Idea > Torah and Jewish Idea
Intermarriage Banning Poll + Lecture
Tzvi Ben Roshel1:
--- Quote from: MackaB on January 20, 2008, 04:16:17 PM ---I think this was sort of a unique situation. I could be wrong and may not have the story correct...
But didn't an enemy (was it Baalam?) send a gaggle of Midianite hookers to get dolled up and tempt the men of Israel?
I think maybe this case would be different from one where a Jew and non-Jew met regularly.
The specific set up of the Midianite women in the Pinchas story was from the beginning a plot to kill Jews.
--- End quote ---
Yes you are right, but still its something that is allways Disgusting in G-d's eyes, even one encounter. And the Halacha Technically is that if someone is having sex with a non-Jewish women, at the exact time (not before or later), one can barge in and kill both of them, BUT the person who can do this is only someone who is like Pinhas who is Zealous for G-d, someone who is completly connected to G-d and is Zealous for G-d, and just like G-d is disgusted by this so is he (no one here is on that level, BUT we can see what G-d thinks about this act).
Dr. Dan:
--- Quote from: Tzvi Ben Roshel on January 20, 2008, 04:40:38 PM ---
--- Quote from: MackaB on January 20, 2008, 04:16:17 PM ---I think this was sort of a unique situation. I could be wrong and may not have the story correct...
But didn't an enemy (was it Baalam?) send a gaggle of Midianite hookers to get dolled up and tempt the men of Israel?
I think maybe this case would be different from one where a Jew and non-Jew met regularly.
The specific set up of the Midianite women in the Pinchas story was from the beginning a plot to kill Jews.
--- End quote ---
Yes you are right, but still its something that is allways Disgusting in G-d's eyes, even one encounter. And the Halacha Technically is that if someone is having sex with a non-Jewish women, at the exact time (not before or later), one can barge in and kill both of them, BUT the person who can do this is only someone who is like Pinhas who is Zealous for G-d, someone who is completly connected to G-d and is Zealous for G-d, and just like G-d is disgusted by this so is he (no one here is on that level, BUT we can see what G-d thinks about this act).
--- End quote ---
yah..that's not going to happen anytime soon in our lifetime....thank goodness...
Maccabi:
Ok.
Let's say we're living in the land of Israel.
We've annihilated many nations in GoguMagog, we've recaptured the borders of Biblical Israel, burned out the idols from the land and reinstated the Sanhedrin.
In this case I think there would be much less incentive for Jews to intermarry.
Then I think you could possibly ban intermarriage and institute harsh penalties in the land of Israel, only because non-Jewish men and women traveling there would have to abide by Jewish law.
But this isn't exactly the case - We've been nationally defiled (well maybe not defiled, but certainly not in top form) for thousands of years - of course some Jews are tired of this and want to intermarry. Even Torah arguments say Hashem didn't mean for the exile to be this bad.
It's not like the Sea just split, we're on the other side thanking Hashem for great miracles, and some guy runs off with a non-Jewish woman.
It's more like we've been through a lot, more than some people can bear psychologically, and they want something a little less heavy, something fun and bright and happy.
So I think we have to have some compassion for the Jewish men who have intermarried. Especially when there are valid Torah arguments that Hashem didn't intend for the exile to be this harsh.
I might be in favor of allowing Jewish men to bring non-Jewish wives into Israel as long as the wives convert...And I'm not even sure it should be like a super-rigorous process. I guess they should learn Torah - but if they aren't against the idea of one G-d and aren't very attached to their other religion (like if they aren't practicing), then maybe we shouldn't hold them to a super high standard of perfection.
They (the converted wives) should enjoy Judaism, but they shouldn't feel like a rabbi is watching them constantly, and that if they miss one little thing, then they aren't a worthy convert. As long as they aren't worshiping idols and are doing some Judaism, maybe they should be ok?
I guess my point is, if the non-Jewish woman isn't really involved in any other religion (the way some Jews are secular today), maybe they are sort of like a blank slate, and their conversion shouldn't be too hard.
I will check out the lecture and post my opinions if they change.
Tzvi Ben Roshel1:
--- Quote from: Dr. Dan on January 20, 2008, 05:18:10 PM ---
--- Quote from: Tzvi Ben Roshel on January 20, 2008, 04:40:38 PM ---
--- Quote from: MackaB on January 20, 2008, 04:16:17 PM ---I think this was sort of a unique situation. I could be wrong and may not have the story correct...
But didn't an enemy (was it Baalam?) send a gaggle of Midianite hookers to get dolled up and tempt the men of Israel?
I think maybe this case would be different from one where a Jew and non-Jew met regularly.
The specific set up of the Midianite women in the Pinchas story was from the beginning a plot to kill Jews.
--- End quote ---
Yes you are right, but still its something that is allways Disgusting in G-d's eyes, even one encounter. And the Halacha Technically is that if someone is having sex with a non-Jewish women, at the exact time (not before or later), one can barge in and kill both of them, BUT the person who can do this is only someone who is like Pinhas who is Zealous for G-d, someone who is completly connected to G-d and is Zealous for G-d, and just like G-d is disgusted by this so is he (no one here is on that level, BUT we can see what G-d thinks about this act).
--- End quote ---
yah..that's not going to happen anytime soon in our lifetime....thank goodness...
--- End quote ---
Why thank goodness? Either way, the person who does this will have his soul cut off forever (unless he does REAL tishuva (with all the proper steps and never does it again + he will still experience some amount of suffering (just as a Shabbat desecrator) even in this world. Even for one act - not only "marriage".
Tzvi Ben Roshel1:
--- Quote from: MackaB on January 20, 2008, 05:21:10 PM ---Ok.
Let's say we're living in the land of Israel.
We've annihilated many nations in GoguMagog, we've recaptured the borders of Biblical Israel, burned out the idols from the land and reinstated the Sanhedrin.
In this case I think there would be much less incentive for Jews to intermarry.
Then I think you could possibly ban intermarriage and institute harsh penalties in the land of Israel, only because non-Jewish men and women traveling there would have to abide by Jewish law.
But this isn't exactly the case - We've been nationally defiled (well maybe not defiled, but certainly not in top form) for thousands of years - of course some Jews are tired of this and want to intermarry. Even Torah arguments say Hashem didn't mean for the exile to be this bad.
It's not like the Sea just split, we're on the other side thanking Hashem for great miracles, and some guy runs off with a non-Jewish woman.
It's more like we've been through a lot, more than some people can bear psychologically, and they want something a little less heavy, something fun and bright and happy.
So I think we have to have some compassion for the Jewish men who have intermarried. Especially when there are valid Torah arguments that Hashem didn't intend for the exile to be this harsh.
I might be in favor of allowing Jewish men to bring non-Jewish wives into Israel as long as the wives convert...And I'm not even sure it should be like a super-rigorous process. I guess they should learn Torah - but if they aren't against the idea of one G-d and aren't very attached to their other religion (like if they aren't practicing), then maybe we shouldn't hold them to a super high standard of perfection.
They (the converted wives) should enjoy Judaism, but they shouldn't feel like a rabbi is watching them constantly, and that if they miss one little thing, then they aren't a worthy convert. As long as they aren't worshiping idols and are doing some Judaism, maybe they should be ok?
I guess my point is, if the non-Jewish woman isn't really involved in any other religion (the way some Jews are secular today), maybe they are sort of like a blank slate, and their conversion shouldn't be too hard.
I will check out the lecture and post my opinions if they change.
--- End quote ---
I was reading your post and wanted to write a lot, but then you said something smart in the last sentence, and you are smart for doing that. When you finish I would expect you to remove your above post.
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