Torah and Jewish Idea > Torah and Jewish Idea
Response from a non zionist, regarding RAMBAN, and vilna gaon 600000
q_q_:
In a previous thread, the 3 oaths were discussed. (Ketuvot 110B-111A)
I put to a non zionist I know, the argument used by Rabbi Kahane ztl hyd, Rav Kook ztl, Rabbi Shlomo Aviner, and others, that the 3 oaths are interdependent.
He said the argument has no basis. And no pre modern zionist source says that. And he put the challenge for any pre modern zionist source that does not take the 3 oaths seriously.
Judea made the following posts, to show that the 3 oaths in ketuvot 110B-111A, were not taken seriously by many great rabbis. PRE MODERN ZIONISM.
Note- I heard an interesting argument from a maimonidean. He said they are certainly not to be taken literally. They are MuhLeeTzah/melisa. A sort of rabbinical rhetoric. Like a drash on a verse. He also said, it was the students that gave it, not the rabbis themselves. When the gemara says verabbi and verav, it means the students and it is rhetoric. He mentioned a rabbi frizzi - who is obscure , that apparently wrote about melisa. Of course, this is not a great argument, it does not say what the "rhetoric" means. What the 3 oaths teach. But anyhow..
Here was Judea`s list of arguments. Or rather, his post with some of his arguments.
--- Quote from: judea... ---Yes, the Ramban who says that the Mitzvah of conquering Eretz Yisrael applies at all times. Obviously the three oaths are not taken into account if the Ramban is saying that we are ALWAYS obligated to conquer eretz yisrael.
Also the Vilna Gaon in the sefer Kol Hator says that the Jewish people should go to Israel with atleast 600,000 Jews at one time. That is the definition of en masse.
Also the Yaabetz Rabbi Yaaqov Emden says that we should move to Israel en masse. All of the Jewish people are required to go to Israel at all times.
Also Rashi who in his commentary on the verse in Song of Songs that the three oaths is based on, says "There are many Midrashim on this verse that do not make sense." and then goes on to say that the Gentiles and not the Jews are being sworn in this oath.
So there are plenty of Rabbanim who said at the time that there is no issur in moving back en masse. In fact, I would ask your non-zionist friend to find ONE poseq who brought this down as a halakha before the BACKLASH AGAINST the Modern Zionist Movement."
--- End quote ---
I put the RAMBAN and the vilna Gaon arguments to the non zionist.
The others, I suppose, are pending.
The non zionist responded ..
Regarding the RAMBAN argument..
He said the RAMBAN does -not- say it is a mitzva to conquer eretz yisroel. He says it is a mitzva to settle eretz yisroel , yishuv haaretz.
He said that furthermore, the RAMBAN does not say we are "chayav" the mitzva.. (chayav probably means obligated). So it is like the mitzva of shooing away the mother bird before taking the nest for its birds or eggs. We do not go around looking for nests. So going to israel is a voluntary mitzva..
Then he made an interesting point.
He said, If the RAMBAN really believed we are obligated to go live in israel, then why was it that he left it till the end of his life, when he was literally fleeing for his life, before he actually went there ?
An interesting thing I noticed is the RAMBAM(with a Mem), did try to live in israel. And the RAMBAM of course omitted it from his mitzvot list.
The key argument from the non zionist though, is that this is about settling.
Nothing about Conquering.
note: I do not have the text or relevant text of RAMBAN so cannot comment.
Regarding the Vilna Gaon
judea- "Also the Vilna Gaon in the sefer Kol Hator says that the Jewish people should go to Israel with atleast 600,000 Jews at one time. That is the definition of en masse."
I put to the non zionist that the Vilna Gaon said that 600000 people are allowed to go up. And 600k is clearly en masse.. so thus that is the vilna gaon not treating the 3 oaths seriously. That is a source pre modern zionism.
(And of course the vilna gaon is a very respected rabbi and Gadol, he is not an obscure guy).
First, he asked for a book chapter verse, for this claim.. I googled and found Kol HaTor, which happens to be the source judea mentioned.
note- I found the text online
http://www.yedidnefesh.com/kaballah/kol-hator/6.htm
His response was..
Kol HaTor, was not written by the Vilna Gaon..
the author cites his grandfather who asks the Vilna Gaon a question and gives the Vilna Gaon`s alleged response. Why alleged?
the entire sefer is of questionable provinence(origin)
it was never written down until 1968
rather was never published until 1968
it was allagedly handed down generation to generation in manuscript form.
an abridged version was written fown in 19xx..
The Vilna Gaon died in 1797
why was it never published? it was sitting around for over 150 years, v strange.
a sefer of questionable provinence.
that is attributed to this disciple, (or rather, grandson of a disciple )
and suddenly appears in zionist yeshivas.
OK.. that was what he said
So to say
"the Vilna Gaon in the sefer Kol Hator says "
is disingenuous.
Secondly..
looking at the whole sentence
"the Vilna Gaon in the sefer Kol Hator says that the Jewish people should go to Israel with atleast 600,000 Jews at one time. That is the definition of en masse."
The non zionist did not actually deal that much with the sentence.. Focussed alot on the fact that the claim was as if the vilna gaon says it. (because he wanted to get on with the RAMBAN. And he had made a great point already, that the vilna gaon did not write it, e.t.c.)
We can look at the exact text though (assuming this website is correct)
http://www.yedidnefesh.com/kaballah/kol-hator/6.htm
"
The following are the circumstances and manners of Redemption:
1. gathering in the exiles-how will this occur? To what extent are we, emissaries of G-d at the time of the beginning of the Redemption, obligated to engage in gathering in the exiles? The minimum number of exiles that has the power to bring back the Shechina to Israel is the number our Sages considered when the term “population of Israel” was used, that is, 600, 000. This number has the power to vanquish Samael at the gates of Jerusalem. As our Sages stated concerning G-d: “For I will not enter Jerusalem above until the population of Israel enters Jerusalem below” [see Chapter 1, 15].
My grandfather (R’ Binyamin) once asked the Gaon what to do if it becomes possible practically and naturally to bring all of Israel to the Holy Land at one time. According to our Sages, if we do not merit it, the Redemption will come little by little like the dawn. The question is, what should we do? The Gaon replied: “if it is possible, then 600, 000 should be brought over at first, because that is the number that can overpower Samael who rules in the gates of Jerusalem. Then, in any case, the entire Redemption will occur.
.........................................
"From where should the ingathering begin? From the North, as is written: “behold I will bring them from the land of the north, etc. (Jer. 31:7), because the main ruling power of Samael is on the northern side, and Samael is referred to as “the northern one.” It says about him: “I will distance the northern one from you” [Joel 2:20]. And he is the one who drew the main part of the exile of Israel to the north, as noted: “out of the North, evil will break forth” [Jer. 1:14]. Therefore, the beginning of the ingathering of the exiles must also be from the place ruled by Samael, from the North. "
"
So that is what it says..
Is is a THEORETICAL. KABBALISTIC thing.
let`s take it literally.. I assume it is meant literally.
The Vilna Gaon did not encourage 600,000 jews to go to israel, during his lifetime. There is no evidence of that. He had his students who went there, but that is far from 600,000.
The Vilna Gaon was just saying that if 600,000 jews come together (he may mean simultaneously) to overpower "samuel", from the north, then the redemption will occur at once.
So it is far from the claim it is made out to be.
--adding this paragraph---
sorry, just adding this sentene rather late.. I should not have said "Vilna Gaon says". "The Kol HaTor alleges that the Vilna Gaon said". And I say Kol HaTor now that a description of what the Kol HaTor is there - and that description is very relevant to the claim. It clearly leaves the claim with alot less strength, very little strength. Combined with the fact that he never said 600000 should go up, and never attempted to instigate or encourage that, to anybody`s knowledge.
----------------------
kahaneloyalist:
The non-Zionist is doing the mental backflips necessary for any non-Zionist, just read Ramban Sefer Mitzvot Mitzvah 4, he says the Mitzvah to conquer Eretz Yisrael applies in every generation as it did in Yehoshua's time its very straightforward
judeanoncapta:
--- Quote from: kahaneloyalist on February 07, 2008, 04:30:20 PM ---The non-Zionist is doing the mental backflips necessary for any non-Zionist, just read Ramban Sefer Mitzvot Mitzvah 4, he says the Mitzvah to conquer Eretz Yisrael applies in every generation as it did in Yehoshua's time its very straightforward
--- End quote ---
Right, and he uses the word "Conquer" not just "Settle".
q_q_:
I do not have a RAMBAN sefer at home,
I see the word conquer in an english translation of the relevant paragraph that judea mentioned once
The last sentence says the english word Conquest.
What is the hebrew word that the RAMBAN used?
What I will do is use bible concordance software - "bible works" to try to find the translation. I guess the other thing I could do is if I could get hold of Rabbi Chavel`s translation of RAMBAN. I heard from the rabbi gottlieb of shomrei yisroel in shiurim on religious zionism, that rabbi chavel is a RAMBAN expert.
what is the hebrew word the RAMBAN uses that you say means conquest. and not settle ?
Do you all here agree that this is an accurate translation of this part of the RAMBAN?
"
The Ramban in his commentary to the Rambam's "Sefer Hamitzvot" (Positive Commandment #4) notes the following.
"That we are commanded to take possession of the Land which the Almighty, Blessed Be He, gave to our forefathers, to Avraham, to Yitzhak, and to Yaacov; and not to abandon it to other nations, or to leave it desolate, as He said to them, You shall dispossess the inhabitants of the Land and dwell in it, for I have given the Land to you to posses it, (Numbers, 33:53) and he said, further, To Inherit the Land which I swore to your forefathers, (to give them,) behold, we are commanded with the conquest of the land in every generation."
"
I will put it to the non zionist.
but if you can really prove that it means conquest, then it is better, when I put the argument to him.
q_q_:
I am going to have a long lazy man bath - 3hr. So I won`t be responding in this thread for about 3 hours. I will look back at the thread in 3 hours, possibly respond. I will ask him about this/RAMBAN in about 7hrs time , if I am still awake, and I plan to be.
so if you can post what you can to make the case.. I will have more of a case to put to him.
thanks
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