Author Topic: Forget 'glamour guns'. Keep your arsenal simple and effective.  (Read 7565 times)

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newman

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Forget 'glamour guns'. Keep your arsenal simple and effective.
« on: February 10, 2008, 09:13:41 AM »
FANTASY & WEAPONRY


"A pistol for the bedroom,
A shotgun over the door,
A 30-06 for reaching out;
You don't need any more."


If an intruder makes it to your bedroom, shoot him with the pistol. If he's trying to break in, use the shotgun. If he is fifty yards or more away and shooting at you, pick him off with the 30-06.

This is the real Survivalist's arsenal; basic, inexpensive, effective. So why all the promotion of rapid-fire weapons? If you aim at a man and don't hit him, he' going to move, and probably shoot you. Banging away in the same general direction is just a senseless waste of ammo. You need practice, not rapid-fire. You also need a realistic attitude, not a fantasy.

The Rambo Survivalist image being sold to neurotics is making weapons dealers rich. It is also showing the profound ignorance of weapons among the general public.

To know guns, you must understand the three basic methods of shooting; sweeping, pointing and aiming.

Sweeping is with rapid-fire. Its main purpose is to dispatch several enemies before one can shoot you. Such confrontations are unlikely in any actual civil conflict. Raiders don't bunch up. There would be no point to it.

Sweeping is also anticipated in cases of moving targets. Proficiency with the shotgun will do more damage to the moving target than expert use of rapid-fire.

There is a psychological disadvantage to dependency on a rapid-fire weapon. One tends to sweep or just bang away ineffectually.
If an automatic weapon is shifted one and a half feet, in 20 or more yards, the bullets are spaced several feet apart. You could empty a clip on several people and not hit one. The nut who unloaded several clips of an AK-47 at a crowd of 35 children in Stockton only killed five. What if he had had a rifle and had to aim? What if he had had a shotgun and had to point? Couldn't he see his sweeps were ineffective?

Another TV segment was on the Gulf. Here were all these troops practicing, banging away at a dune, fully automatic, as usual. I only hope the Iraqis are on full-auto. I wouldn't want anyone to get hurt.
Yet another segment was at a California shooting range. It told how the state had 300,000 assault weapons owners but only 15,000 had registered as ordered.There were about ten men banging away on semi-auto, as fast as they could shoot. They were all pointing, as they were shooting too fast to correct aim.

Watching those men, I could see that their practice was ineffective. The targets were only 10 to 15 yards away. No proficiency can be gained by simply banging away at a stationary target from a distance at which one only has to point.

Watching them reminded me of the reason for the arming of all the American forces with rapid-fire weapons. During the Korean War it was found that only one in nineteen soldiers would fire his rifle. They were mostly uniformed civilians in a no-win war and didn't want to get killed. So they would just hunker down and try to ignore the Chinese. Having Garands, which demanded aiming, put them at risk of getting a bullet in the face.

So by the time the Vietnam fiasco rolled around the boys all had the confidence-giving, noise-making M-16s. They were effective enough for jungle fighting where one could not aim anyway, even if he knew how to shoot. It didn't matter, however, since the other side had AK-47s; just as worthless. Of course, there were plenty enough bombs and napalm to keep the VC's numbers manageable and most U.S. losses were due to booby-traps. So a rifleman was about as useful as nipples on a boar.

I know it is hard to believe that glamor weapons with all their sound and fury, are more hype than effect. However, if one of their proud owners has it out with any practiced hunter with any rifle, the hunter will win.

Now we come to pointing. Apart from shooting at flying ducks, the shotgun is mainly for pointing. Man-killing shot is from #4 to 00 buckshot. (Single 0 buckshot has 12 .30 caliber pellets per round). The best killing range is up to 50 yards.

The 12 gauge shotgun is the most devastating hand-held weapon. Few people realize how really terrible the shotgun is. They were used to devastating effect against germans in WW1 and against japanese banzai charges in WW2. It was also preferred in Vietnam over regulation m16s.

A buckshot pellet does not have the penetrative force of any bullet of equal diameter because it is round and not as heavy as the longer bullet. Buckshot is also fired at lower velocities than bullets.
But they still inflict wounds of maximum size, induce considerable shock and hemorrhage. Also, when two or more pellets hit, their total effect on the victim is as the square of the number of hits, not just an additive progression; that is, two hits equal four times the effect of one hit, three hits equal nine times that effect, and so on. If the victim is hit by three Single 0 buckshot pellets it is the same as if he had been hit by nine .30 caliber Carbine rounds.

Rapid-fire (as opposed to aimed shots!) semi-auto from an assault weapon has no greater killing range than does the shotgun. And since the shotgun must be pointed, and the shot pattern is wider, multiple hits per target are surer than with any assault weapon.

Next in pointing, is the pistol. Beyond a few feet you want a shotgun or a rifle. Aiming a pistol is possible, but only with practice. Practice, however, has made some pistol shooters as deadly at long range as shot gunners or riflemen.

You ought to own a pistol and it should be a .38/.357 magnum Police Special with a four to six inch barrel. I recommend a revolver over an automatic, since the revolver has fewer parts to malfunction. And if you don't think the .38 has stopping power, you just don't realize what you can do when you practice. Also, if you practice and so become as proficient as professional law enforcement officers, both in speed and instinct aiming, you can be sure of a fatal hit before your opponent can even touch his own weapon.

The glamor weapon among pistols is the automatic, especially the .45. It is heavier, bulkier and more than twice as expensive as the .38. Its main claim to fame is its stopping power. But a well-placed bullet is a greater guarantee of stopping power than a bullet's size. Accuracy and speed come with practice. Reliance in mechanics over skill leads to overconfidence. Many glamor gun fantasizers are going to die when they confront a foe who has mastered his weapon.

You may know of whole police departments adopting automatics. Maybe their chief watched too much TV. Again, skill with a basic weapon is better than reliance on mechanics or power. The punk spraying lead is no match for a cop skilled with his .38.

Now for aiming. The reason for aiming is to hit the target at a greater distance than is practical for pointing. A rifleman hits everything he aims at. A macho fool just bangs away with a lot of sound and fury signifying nothing; except the deserved death of the ignorant.

Unfortunately, few people aim today. They have mistaken multiple loud reports for damage. One has but to watch newsreels of Arab-Christian conflicts in Lebanon, closeup coverage of the fire fights in Vietnam, the results of drive-by shootings in Los Angeles, etc., to see that moderns simply are not learning to shoot accurately. The discrepancy between shots fired and clean kills is appalling. Our honored WW II dead are spinning in their graves!

Aside from a shotgun or pistol, one should not own a gun not designed for aimed hits...........preferrably hits out to at least 300 yards.

I got a laugh from a news report some time ago. A character named T. J. Johnston in California, an anti-gun-registration-protester, was burning his order to register his assault weapon. His cronies were banging away at some targets ten yards away with more assault weapons. No rifleman would waste ammo shooting at a target that close. If he goes to jail he might have time to reflect that one rifleman with an M1 30-06 Garand could wipe out his whole flock!
 
Have you ever heard of Sergeant Alvin York? You have probably seen the movie, starring Gary Cooper. York was a conscientious objector. But when his friends were dropping like flies he reacted. A hillbilly, he was a trained hunter from childhood.

He first worked his way around the enemy's flank. He was armed with a 1903 30-06 bolt-action Springfield and a pistol. He killed 20 Germans and captured l32. Of course, few of those captured knew it was a one-man job. The point is, he could shoot! He killed 20 men with one well-placed bullet each. He had no need for rapid-fire. He knew that every time he aimed and fired a man was dead.

Most American and German soldiers at that time, with their bolt-action Springfields and Mausers could also shoot. They had to work those bolts and correct every time they fired. And there were men actually trying to kill them all the while! There was no getting around their having to know how to aim and shoot. No room for fantasy.

Among the best combat rifles ever made is the WW II U.S. M1 30-06 Garand. It is a semi-auto with a 1,000 yard effective killing range. It holds only eight rounds so there is no tendency to bang away at a single target.

However, don't discount the bolt-action rifle. After aiming and firing, the bolt is worked as the gun is reaimed, so no time is lost. Most good military and hunting rifles are bolt-action anyway.

You might be tempted to buy the most expensive rifle. But it is best to buy the most common, the tried and true, the least flashy.
Pause a minute to reflect; if you were driving cross-country on a very important trip, would you choose a common car or a sports model? Of course, you would look grand in the sportster. But if getting there were the only important consideration, you would want the reliability, and serviceability of your dependable standard model over the object of your fantasies.

The same goes for civilian combat. You may fantasize owning an expensive rapid-fire gun, mowing down raiders with ten slugs in each. It looks great in the movies, but why use 10 bullets where one would do? Besides, raiders won't bunch up and charge. They will fan out, using what cover is available, and you will have to pick them off one by one.

Now, if in your fantasies, you used a 30-06, preferably an M1 Garand, and could shoot, you could make your fantasies pay off. Then, with practice in making every bullet count, you could defend your territory against any number of predators.

So if you must fantasize about weapons, fantasize being a better shot than any thieving parasite. Fantasize putting one well-placed bullet into every looter with the stupidity to set foot in your community.

Offline Ithaca-37

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Re: Forget 'glamour guns'. Keep your arsenal simple and effective.
« Reply #1 on: February 10, 2008, 12:33:31 PM »
Most experienced hunters would agree with your thinking about long rifles.  I once read this comment from a big-game hunting guide (not his exact words perhaps, but you get the idea):  "I cringe when a client arrives with a semi-auto rifle.  He's usually more concerned with cracking his second and third shots rather than making his first shot count."

Allow me to offer a counter to the bolt-action rifle:  I've become a fan of the lever action.  The lever action still forces the discipline of a good first shot, same as the bolt action, BUT it's better than the bolt action for keeping your eyes on the target as you load a followup shot.

One downside to the lever vs bolt:  The choice of calibers is more limited in lever action than bolt action, and bolt action is reportedly an inherently stronger design.

As for handguns, while I grasp your point about revolvers vs automatics, the .45 is about as sturdy a weapon as has ever been invented.  The design is literally a century old, and gun makers are still issuing new models based on its action mechanism.  That guy Browning was a mechanical genius.

et

Offline jdl4ever

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Re: Forget 'glamour guns'. Keep your arsenal simple and effective.
« Reply #2 on: February 10, 2008, 12:45:48 PM »
That's a good article.  Never knew how powerful the shotgun was.
"Enough weeping and wailing; and the following of leaders & rabbis who are pygmies of little faith & less understanding."
"I believe very much in a nation beating their swords into plowshears but when my enemy has a sword I don't want a plowshear"
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Offline KansasJew

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Re: Forget 'glamour guns'. Keep your arsenal simple and effective.
« Reply #3 on: February 11, 2008, 01:44:39 AM »
When I was on the Force. We always recommended the shotgun in 12 gauge for home defense...pistols are for close quarters combat and should only be used by experienced gun fighters when confronting a criminal with intention of lethal force. We trained with the shotgun to sweep a room to clear the area of any threats using buckshot ammo in our urban warfare training courses.
Remember there has to be strong silent men on the walls at night to protect the people. Be Strong but not aggressive. Be Peaceful but not weak. Defend the Jewish People at all cost.

newman

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Re: Forget 'glamour guns'. Keep your arsenal simple and effective.
« Reply #4 on: February 11, 2008, 01:52:05 AM »
Most experienced hunters would agree with your thinking about long rifles.  I once read this comment from a big-game hunting guide (not his exact words perhaps, but you get the idea):  "I cringe when a client arrives with a semi-auto rifle.  He's usually more concerned with cracking his second and third shots rather than making his first shot count."

Allow me to offer a counter to the bolt-action rifle:  I've become a fan of the lever action.  The lever action still forces the discipline of a good first shot, same as the bolt action, BUT it's better than the bolt action for keeping your eyes on the target as you load a followup shot.

One downside to the lever vs bolt:  The choice of calibers is more limited in lever action than bolt action, and bolt action is reportedly an inherently stronger design.

As for handguns, while I grasp your point about revolvers vs automatics, the .45 is about as sturdy a weapon as has ever been invented.  The design is literally a century old, and gun makers are still issuing new models based on its action mechanism.  That guy Browning was a mechanical genius.

et
I like lever guns, too.

In a built-up urban area pistol caliber lever actions make more sense than rifle powered semi-autos as they won't go through walls and kill 'friendlies'.

In a survival scenario the problem is ammunition.  Sporting ammo like 30-30 is not the best choice compared to more common military/police calibers. The pistol caliber guns make as much sense today as they did in 1878 when the Winchest rifles AND the SAA Colt were available in the same chambering (44 WCF aka 44-40). Your rifle and pistol BOTH take the same ammo! Problem is then range. I don't think lever guns are as rugged as a mil-spec rifle either and they're not real easy to field strip in a dark pup tent.

Re pistols:

The 1911 and other Browning designs are time-tested and proven in many wars in many climates. No reliability issues there. The problems with autos are;

(a) Lose the detatchable magazine/s and they won't fire.
(b) Moving parts to get lost/broken
(c) Keep magazines loaded for extended periods and the springs get weak leading to feed failures.
(d) Most autos will not function reliably with hollow/soft point ammo. It's military FMJs or nothing if you want total reliability.

Offline Tina Greco - Melbourne

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Re: Forget 'glamour guns'. Keep your arsenal simple and effective.
« Reply #5 on: February 11, 2008, 05:07:52 AM »
Shot guns are good, 1911 can't be beaten  O0

newman

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Re: Forget 'glamour guns'. Keep your arsenal simple and effective.
« Reply #6 on: February 11, 2008, 05:18:02 AM »
..................... 1911 can't be beaten  O0
At pistol range................probably not. But don't make the mistake of thinking any pistol is some 'wonder' weapon of choice.

Pistols are carried and used for one reason only: Portability/ concealment. It just isn't practical to walk around with a 12g pump or an M1 Garand under your jacket (believe me, I've tried!). Pistols are handy to cops/soldiers/survivalists because they're ALWAYS there at one's side, not 'in the truck' or leaning against a tree when you're taking a leak.

If one is expecting trouble (or has 2 minutes warning) though, a shotgun (close in) or a rifle (beyond 50 yards) are 100 times better than any handgun (1911s and Glocks included).

An exception to the above might be in VC tunnels or other tight spaces.

Offline Tina Greco - Melbourne

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Re: Forget 'glamour guns'. Keep your arsenal simple and effective.
« Reply #7 on: February 11, 2008, 07:27:33 AM »
True just I prefer the 1911, and will more than likely used above all others. Shot gun now i find too heavy.

Offline KansasJew

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Re: Forget 'glamour guns'. Keep your arsenal simple and effective.
« Reply #8 on: February 11, 2008, 10:17:23 AM »
For all the 1911 Pistol fans here ya go.
http://www.m1911.org/full_history.htm

The pistol was designed for close quarters combat function for stopping power. Hence for gun battles less than 3 - 10 feet. Beyond that trench warfare usually relied on shotguns to clear houses and trenches.

For all us Shotgun Fans
http://www.olive-drab.com/od_other_firearms_shotguns_history.php
« Last Edit: February 11, 2008, 10:20:05 AM by KansasJew »
Remember there has to be strong silent men on the walls at night to protect the people. Be Strong but not aggressive. Be Peaceful but not weak. Defend the Jewish People at all cost.

Offline Scriabin

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Re: Forget 'glamour guns'. Keep your arsenal simple and effective.
« Reply #9 on: February 11, 2008, 10:23:30 AM »
That's a good article.  Never knew how powerful the shotgun was.

Shotguns are absolutely devestating. 

Offline White Israelite

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Re: Forget 'glamour guns'. Keep your arsenal simple and effective.
« Reply #10 on: February 11, 2008, 11:52:05 AM »
Most experienced hunters would agree with your thinking about long rifles.  I once read this comment from a big-game hunting guide (not his exact words perhaps, but you get the idea):  "I cringe when a client arrives with a semi-auto rifle.  He's usually more concerned with cracking his second and third shots rather than making his first shot count."

Allow me to offer a counter to the bolt-action rifle:  I've become a fan of the lever action.  The lever action still forces the discipline of a good first shot, same as the bolt action, BUT it's better than the bolt action for keeping your eyes on the target as you load a followup shot.

One downside to the lever vs bolt:  The choice of calibers is more limited in lever action than bolt action, and bolt action is reportedly an inherently stronger design.

As for handguns, while I grasp your point about revolvers vs automatics, the .45 is about as sturdy a weapon as has ever been invented.  The design is literally a century old, and gun makers are still issuing new models based on its action mechanism.  That guy Browning was a mechanical genius.

et
I like lever guns, too.

In a built-up urban area pistol caliber lever actions make more sense than rifle powered semi-autos as they won't go through walls and kill 'friendlies'.

In a survival scenario the problem is ammunition.  Sporting ammo like 30-30 is not the best choice compared to more common military/police calibers. The pistol caliber guns make as much sense today as they did in 1878 when the Winchest rifles AND the SAA Colt were available in the same chambering (44 WCF aka 44-40). Your rifle and pistol BOTH take the same ammo! Problem is then range. I don't think lever guns are as rugged as a mil-spec rifle either and they're not real easy to field strip in a dark pup tent.

Re pistols:

The 1911 and other Browning designs are time-tested and proven in many wars in many climates. No reliability issues there. The problems with autos are;

(a) Lose the detatchable magazine/s and they won't fire.
(b) Moving parts to get lost/broken
(c) Keep magazines loaded for extended periods and the springs get weak leading to feed failures.
(d) Most autos will not function reliably with hollow/soft point ammo. It's military FMJs or nothing if you want total reliability.

I've left magazines loaded for years and they never had reliability issues. My grandpa also has world war II rifles with magazines that had been loaded for up to 10-15 years at a time and still functioned fine. We noticed that the wear is when you constantly reload magazines as the spring tension gets weaker.

newman

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Re: Forget 'glamour guns'. Keep your arsenal simple and effective.
« Reply #11 on: February 11, 2008, 12:00:50 PM »
There's another thing to consider here.

Before we get to the 'total breakdown of society, roaming hoards' stage, there'll be a horrible intermediate period of oppressive government. This will mean gun limitation, gun registration followed by gun confiscation. Look at New Orleans during Katrina. Hoards of apes roaming, raping & looting while the dirty coppers disarmed middle class, law-abiding white people!

It's well & good to argue what are the most effective guns but we need to consider what we can realistically get our hands on (and keep).

Example:

A new (but still high maintainance and stoppage-prone) AR-15 with 8 x 30 rd mags will set you back at least $1500. Surplus ammo about $350/1,000 rds.

An A-1 condition surplus Russian M44 bolt-action carbine (About 2 moving parts and BOMB PROOF) is $89!! Surplus 7.62x54 ammo is under $200 per 1,000 rds.

So........... buy 5 of the surplus M44s, bury 4 of them in different locations with 500 rds each, keep one with 1,000 rds at home.

All-up cost: $1050 versus $1850 for ONE AR-15 with ammo. If the gun grabbers come, you'll lose an $89 rifle and still have 4 in reserve they'll never find with ammo................as opposed to losing a $1500 rifle and being unarmed when the hyphenated Americans come wilding around.

With the $800 change, go buy 2 brand new Maverick 88 combat shotguns at $200 each with slings and a couple of good used S&W M65/66 .357s (yeah I know they're really .38s) for $200 each. Keep one of each out and hide the others.

Remember:

The surplus bolt-action the gun grabbers DON'T get is 50 times better than the high capacity semi-auto they confiscate.

The .38 snubbie you can hide in your pants and get past the road block beats the latest & greatest  .45 Glock they grab.


Offline White Israelite

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Re: Forget 'glamour guns'. Keep your arsenal simple and effective.
« Reply #12 on: February 11, 2008, 12:07:13 PM »
I was going to buy a Mossberg 590 shotgun, any objections?

Also on bolt action, I been meaning to get a few (Mosin-Nagant, is that the same as the M44?)

I've heard Arisaka Type 38 was one of the finest made bolt action rifles ever made, the only problem is that the ammo is rare for it, I think they converted a few to 8mm though.

The Mauser KAR98k from my understanding is a very reliable weapon as well, a friend of mine owned an original with a US Armory stamp on the barrel, looked like it was taken off a dead Nazi soldier as it still has the eagle with the swastika on the rifle. I shot a few rounds through it, very accurate.

I don't have a whole lot of experience with bolt actions.

newman

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Re: Forget 'glamour guns'. Keep your arsenal simple and effective.
« Reply #13 on: February 11, 2008, 12:24:42 PM »
I was going to buy a Mossberg 590 shotgun, any objections?

Also on bolt action, I been meaning to get a few (Mosin-Nagant, is that the same as the M44?)

I've heard Arisaka Type 38 was one of the finest made bolt action rifles ever made, the only problem is that the ammo is rare for it, I think they converted a few to 8mm though.

The Mauser KAR98k from my understanding is a very reliable weapon as well, a friend of mine owned an original with a US Armory stamp on the barrel, looked like it was taken off a dead Nazi soldier as it still has the eagle with the swastika on the rifle. I shot a few rounds through it, very accurate.

I don't have a whole lot of experience with bolt actions.

I owned a 500 Mossberg and they're a good gun at a good price. I just mentioned the Maverick because they are essentially a Mossberg and they're $185 (less at Walmart) brand new.

If you want real quality you might look at the Remington 870 Police.........NOT the express, but the Police model. It's a milled steel reciever and all HD metal parts. The mossbergs are alloy recievers and plastic trigger groups.

The Ithaca 37 M&P shotguns are being made again, too. Not cheap but the Rolls Royce of combat scatterguns.

Are you confusing the oddball jap type 38 with the renowned Swedish M38 Mausser? I know the Swedish Mausers in 6.5x55 are considered to be works of art and shoot MOA out of the box. Harly used either coz Swedes don't fight.

I owned an Israeli Kar 98k Mauser. It had been rebarrelled by FN or IMI with a chrome-lined barrel in .308 (NATO), had a new stock, too. Only original part was the reciever but boy could it shoot! Head shots at 200 yards with standard iron sights and I'm not an A-grade shot!

Problem with Mausers now days is the ammo. 8mm stuff ain't cheap anymore. Years ago you could buy it by the can at under 10 cents a round.

Offline White Israelite

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Re: Forget 'glamour guns'. Keep your arsenal simple and effective.
« Reply #14 on: February 11, 2008, 12:30:49 PM »
I was going to buy a Mossberg 590 shotgun, any objections?

Also on bolt action, I been meaning to get a few (Mosin-Nagant, is that the same as the M44?)

I've heard Arisaka Type 38 was one of the finest made bolt action rifles ever made, the only problem is that the ammo is rare for it, I think they converted a few to 8mm though.

The Mauser KAR98k from my understanding is a very reliable weapon as well, a friend of mine owned an original with a US Armory stamp on the barrel, looked like it was taken off a dead Nazi soldier as it still has the eagle with the swastika on the rifle. I shot a few rounds through it, very accurate.

I don't have a whole lot of experience with bolt actions.

I owned a 500 Mossberg and they're a good gun at a good price. I just mentioned the Maverick because they are essentially a Mossberg and they're $185 (less at Walmart) brand new.

If you want real quality you might look at the Remington 870 Police.........NOT the express, but the Police model. It's a milled steel reciever and all HD metal parts. The mossbergs are alloy recievers and plastic trigger groups.

The Ithaca 37 M&P shotguns are being made again, too. Not cheap but the Rolls Royce of combat scatterguns.

Are you confusing the oddball jap type 38 with the renowned Swedish M38 Mausser? I know the Swedish Mausers in 6.5x55 are considered to be works of art and shoot MOA out of the box. Harly used either coz Swedes don't fight.

I owned an Israeli Kar 98k Mauser. It had been rebarrelled by FN or IMI with a chrome-lined barrel in .308 (NATO), had a new stock, too. Only original part was the reciever but boy could it shoot! Head shots at 200 yards with standard iron sights and I'm not an A-grade shot!

Problem with Mausers now days is the ammo. 8mm stuff ain't cheap anymore. Years ago you could buy it by the can at under 10 cents a round.

Nope, dead serious about the Arisakas, there were stress tests done on them and they were renowned for being one of the strongest bolt action rifles ever made, even stronger than the KAR98.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arisaka

here is more information about the specific rifle

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_38_rifle

newman

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Re: Forget 'glamour guns'. Keep your arsenal simple and effective.
« Reply #15 on: February 11, 2008, 12:46:09 PM »
I was going to buy a Mossberg 590 shotgun, any objections?

Also on bolt action, I been meaning to get a few (Mosin-Nagant, is that the same as the M44?)

I've heard Arisaka Type 38 was one of the finest made bolt action rifles ever made, the only problem is that the ammo is rare for it, I think they converted a few to 8mm though.

The Mauser KAR98k from my understanding is a very reliable weapon as well, a friend of mine owned an original with a US Armory stamp on the barrel, looked like it was taken off a dead Nazi soldier as it still has the eagle with the swastika on the rifle. I shot a few rounds through it, very accurate.

I don't have a whole lot of experience with bolt actions.

I owned a 500 Mossberg and they're a good gun at a good price. I just mentioned the Maverick because they are essentially a Mossberg and they're $185 (less at Walmart) brand new.

If you want real quality you might look at the Remington 870 Police.........NOT the express, but the Police model. It's a milled steel reciever and all HD metal parts. The mossbergs are alloy recievers and plastic trigger groups.

The Ithaca 37 M&P shotguns are being made again, too. Not cheap but the Rolls Royce of combat scatterguns.

Are you confusing the oddball jap type 38 with the renowned Swedish M38 Mausser? I know the Swedish Mausers in 6.5x55 are considered to be works of art and shoot MOA out of the box. Harly used either coz Swedes don't fight.

I owned an Israeli Kar 98k Mauser. It had been rebarrelled by FN or IMI with a chrome-lined barrel in .308 (NATO), had a new stock, too. Only original part was the reciever but boy could it shoot! Head shots at 200 yards with standard iron sights and I'm not an A-grade shot!

Problem with Mausers now days is the ammo. 8mm stuff ain't cheap anymore. Years ago you could buy it by the can at under 10 cents a round.

Nope, dead serious about the Arisakas, there were stress tests done on them and they were renowned for being one of the strongest bolt action rifles ever made, even stronger than the KAR98.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arisaka

here is more information about the specific rifle

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_38_rifle

That's interesting.

The trick to buying surplus rifles is to buy according to the ammo prices.

They come in runs of about 3 to 7 years. When there was dirt cheap 7.65 stuff you bought Argentine Mausers at $99 and ammo at $40/500 rd can (or something rediculously cheap).

Arisaka 6.5mm had a run like that in the 60s or 70s, as did most of the surplus stuff.

30-06 and 8mm mauser ammo was cheap for decades because there was so much of it. Drying up now, though. The 7.62x54 Nagant ammo is still cheap but going up.

 If you're smart get 10,000 rounds of good quality, non-corrosive Hungarian surplus for $79/440 rd can before that b*tch Hillary bans foreign ammo imports in 2009. Excellent rifles are $69-$89 a piece. Buy half a dozen and learn how to cache (bury) weapons/ammo.