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Moshiah (Add on to what Judea was saying)

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Tzvi Ben Roshel1:
THE RAMBAN: "THE MOSHIACH WILL BE SO WHEN HE DOES WHAT HE IS  SUPPOSED TO DO AND NOT WHEN SOMEONE SAYS THAT HE IS MOSHIACH"

THE DAY IN WHICH MOSHE RABBENU WAS BORN HE WAS NOT THE REDEEMER, AND HE HAD NOT ARRIVED, BUT WHEN HE CAME TO PHAROH ON THE COMMAND OF HASHEM AND SAID TO HIM: “SEND MY PEOPLE…” THEN THE REDEEMER HAD COME. AND ALSO THE MOSHIACH, WHEN HE COMES TO THE RULERS OF THE WORLD AND SAYS TO THEM: “SEND MY PEOPLE…” THEN MOSHIACH WILL HAVE COME. AND UNTIL THAT DAY HE HAS YET TO COME, AND HE IS NOT MOSHIACH AT ALL. FOR KING DAVID, THE DAY HE WAS BORN HE WAS NOT MOSHIACH, BUT WHEN SHMUEL ANOINTED HIM, HE BECAME MOSHIACH. AND ON THE DAY THAT ELIYAHU WILL ANOINT MOSHIACH ACCORDING TO HASHEM’S COMMAND, THEN HE WILL BE CALLED MOSHIACH.   RAMBAN, MILCHEMET HASHEM [VIKUACH HA RAMBAN] SIMAN 24

(just one, you can also go to www.Israel613.com  - in the categories of "Lubavitch", "False Moshiachs"and a few others, that cover this.

Lubab:

--- Quote from: Tzvi Ben Roshel on February 14, 2008, 11:25:39 PM ---THE RAMBAN: "THE MOSHIACH WILL BE SO WHEN HE DOES WHAT HE IS  SUPPOSED TO DO AND NOT WHEN SOMEONE SAYS THAT HE IS MOSHIACH"

THE DAY IN WHICH MOSHE RABBENU WAS BORN HE WAS NOT THE REDEEMER, AND HE HAD NOT ARRIVED, BUT WHEN HE CAME TO PHAROH ON THE COMMAND OF HASHEM AND SAID TO HIM: “SEND MY PEOPLE…” THEN THE REDEEMER HAD COME. AND ALSO THE MOSHIACH, WHEN HE COMES TO THE RULERS OF THE WORLD AND SAYS TO THEM: “SEND MY PEOPLE…” THEN MOSHIACH WILL HAVE COME. AND UNTIL THAT DAY HE HAS YET TO COME, AND HE IS NOT MOSHIACH AT ALL. FOR KING DAVID, THE DAY HE WAS BORN HE WAS NOT MOSHIACH, BUT WHEN SHMUEL ANOINTED HIM, HE BECAME MOSHIACH. AND ON THE DAY THAT ELIYAHU WILL ANOINT MOSHIACH ACCORDING TO HASHEM’S COMMAND, THEN HE WILL BE CALLED MOSHIACH.   RAMBAN, MILCHEMET HASHEM [VIKUACH HA RAMBAN] SIMAN 24

(just one, you can also go to www.Israel613.com  - in the categories of "Lubavitch", "False Moshiachs"and a few others, that cover this.


--- End quote ---

Yes but also see Rambam Hilchos Melachim where the Rambam speaks approvingly about Rabbi Akiva calling Bar Kochba Moshiach even before he completed his mission.

The Rambam in hilchos melachim sets out criteria for a chezkas moshiach and a vadai moshiach. When someone has chezkas moshiach status we can call them Moshiach like Rabbi Akiva did with the force of a chazaka.

MassuhDGoodName:
With this discussion, I am reminded of the tale handed down from the East European shtetl:

It was the custom in the shtetl for the Jewish community to appoint someone born with a mental retardation, or some other affliction, to a full-time position; sitting atop the village gates, in waiting for the arrival of the Moshiach.

This guardian watchman would then have the honor of announcing to the community the arrival of Moshiach.

One day, some Jews in the shtetl were walking along, and turning to the watchman, asked of him, "So...Tell me, how do you like your job of waiting for the arrival of Moshiach?"

To which the watchman replied, "It's steady work!"

q_q_:

--- Quote from: lubab on February 15, 2008, 12:02:28 AM ---
Yes but also see Rambam Hilchos Melachim where the Rambam speaks approvingly about Rabbi Akiva calling Bar Kochba Moshiach even before he completed his mission.

The Rambam in hilchos melachim sets out criteria for a chezkas moshiach and a vadai moshiach. When someone has chezkas moshiach status we can call them Moshiach like Rabbi Akiva did with the force of a chazaka.

--- End quote ---

can you define the hebrew words and give references?

I see in hilchot melachim..
But rabbi akiva was -wrong- in thinking bar kochba was moshiach. And as he soon discovered.  Bar kochba was not moshiach.

RAMBAM talks about presuming somebody is moshiach.. But it is a presumption..
A wrong presumption.

I just read here that he was renamed from bar kochba to bar kozibah (son of deceit!)  (though I have heard he was a wicked man, so that may be part of it... He did kick a rabbi!)
http://www.cyberessays.com/History/95.htm

q_q_:
And regarding another point you made in an askjudea thread.. That RAMBAM says that if he is killed he is not the messiah.. Thus implying that if he dies a natural death it does not prove he isn`t..

The RAMBAM in ch11, says talks about the presumed messiah fighting the wars of G-d.. So it almost goes without saying that if he fails, it would be because he is killed..   There are those that died naturally, but still are not hte messiah.  Shabbetai Tzvi , he actually tried to fight hte wars of G-d.. He died naturally.. He is not the messiah.

RAMBAM says that if he does not succeed to this degree, or he is killed, then he is definitely not the messiah.

He does not say "if he does not succeed to this degree in this lifetime" !!

By your reasoning  almost many rabbis could be the messiah, or rather, described as messiah or presumed to be the messiah..  Because they keep the mitzvot, and succeed in some small way, in repairing the world, and if they do something to promote the noachide laws.

Aish HaTorah also make alot of people frum..  So does that Amnon Yitzchak fellow. 

So, The lubavitcher rebbe also did alot to promote the noachide laws.. and now we have small numbers of noachides (most non jews have not even heard of them.. most jews even!).

IMO.. if it is the case that every generation has a potential moshiach who gets the role if we deserve it. Then Rabbi Meir Kahane ZTL HYD, was the best candidate. If anybody was fighting the wars of G-d, it was him. He attended the first conference of bnai noach and spoke to gentile audiences.. Obviously, he was not.. And/Or we did not merit it.

Moshiach won`t be coming for a --long-- time.. because I reckon that for moshiach to come, we need a man on the level of rabbi kahane, or higher. If he could not do it, then it must be almost impossible to bring it soon. Nobody can at the moment.. And if jews did not merit it then.. then I don`t see us doing much more that would merit it now. As I understand it, he is meant to come by the year 6000. So over 200 years.  I would place a bet that it won`t be in the next hundred.  (as a 6 year old kid I would guess that he would come the next week! we were told he cannot come on friday, so I used to think "ah, darn, he cannot come today!"). Infact, I was always quite optimistic about him coming soon.. until I learnt about rabbi kahane ztl hyd. and the fact that he was murdered.. in the USA of all places.  I did once ask a rabbi if he is meant to come by 6000. HE said "no. jealousy will end in 6000. The world will end in 7000" !!!

In the words of Clint Eastwood "Marvellous" !

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