Torah and Jewish Idea > Torah and Jewish Idea
Moshiah (Add on to what Judea was saying)
mord:
Theres always a Mashiach he does'nt know it,if the generation has the Zachus he will come
Lubab:
--- Quote from: q_q_ on February 15, 2008, 10:38:38 AM ---
--- Quote from: lubab on February 15, 2008, 12:02:28 AM ---
Yes but also see Rambam Hilchos Melachim where the Rambam speaks approvingly about Rabbi Akiva calling Bar Kochba Moshiach even before he completed his mission.
The Rambam in hilchos melachim sets out criteria for a chezkas moshiach and a vadai moshiach. When someone has chezkas moshiach status we can call them Moshiach like Rabbi Akiva did with the force of a chazaka.
--- End quote ---
can you define the hebrew words and give references?
I see in hilchot melachim..
But rabbi akiva was -wrong- in thinking bar kochba was moshiach. And as he soon discovered. Bar kochba was not moshiach.
RAMBAM talks about presuming somebody is moshiach.. But it is a presumption..
A wrong presumption.
I just read here that he was renamed from bar kochba to bar kozibah (son of deceit!) (though I have heard he was a wicked man, so that may be part of it... He did kick a rabbi!)
http://www.cyberessays.com/History/95.htm
--- End quote ---
It's true Rabbi Akiva had the wrong guy, but his (R' Akiva's) behavior until Bar Kochba was proven to be a false Messiah is cited by the Rambam with approval because a Chezkas moshaich maintains that presumption until he is invalidated by one of the Rambam's two criteria for invalidation (being killed, or failing in his mission).
Until one of those two things happen we are supposed to be believing that Moshaich can come today, and we should naturally be sensitive to a potential Moshiach should one arise especially if he has met the criteria for a chezkas moshiach.
The section I am reffering to is in Chapter 11 (don't have the book in front of me so I don't know the halacha #) but basically the Rambam cites the fact that Rabbi Akiva used to call Bar Kochba Moshiach and he goes on to use this practice by Rabbi Akiva as proof for his law that Moshiach need not perform any miracles to be proven to be Moshiach.
So we see the Rambam using this behavior as PROOF of his halacha. He clearly approved of Rabbi Akiva's behavior even though in the end Rabbi Akiva turned out to have the wrong guy.
If anyone is interested in an in depth analysis of Hilchos Melachim as it relates to Chabad Messianism I would recommend a few books written on the topic in hebrew by Rabbi Sholom Ber Wolpo called "Yechi Hamelech" and "Yechi Hamelach HaMoshiach".
There he gives the most in depth analysis that I think you will find anywhere.
Tzvi Ben Roshel1:
TO OUR GOOD FRIENDS OF CHABAD LUBAVITCH:
WHAT A GREAT WORK YOU DO ON BEHALF OF ALL JEWS. YOU ARE ALWAYS INVOLVED IN GREAT ACTS OF KINDNESS TOWARDS THE JEWISH PEOPLE, BRINGING THEM CLOSER TO TORAH AND MITZVOT
THERE IS NO ONE ELSE THAT DOES AS MUCH KINDNESS AS YOU DO, FOTUNATE IS YOUR LOT
NEVERTHELESS BE WARNED ABOUT SOME TROUBLING DEVELOPMENTS WHICH YOU SHOULD BE VERY CAREFUL ABOUT
YOU ARE MAKING THE REBBE INTO A FALSE MESSIAH AND WHO KNOWS WHAT ALL THIS WILL LEAD TO?
PLEASE LEARN HOW TO LOOSE, IF THE REBBE IS JUST THE REBBE, IS THAT NOT ENOUGH FOR YOU?
LET HASHEM DECIDE WHO THE MOSHIACH IS, BE PATIENT, BECAUSE NOBODY KNOWS YET WHO THE MOSHIACH WILL BE
From www.Israel613.com - Also many more (if I post, I would be accused of hatred, etc, but you can check it out yourself). Anyway their is no proof that Rabbi Shnerson was Moshiah, besides the fact that he and his followers presumed he was, since he was their leader, until he died, so then many still stayed with that opinion.
Lubab:
--- Quote from: Tzvi Ben Roshel on February 15, 2008, 01:48:06 PM ---TO OUR GOOD FRIENDS OF CHABAD LUBAVITCH:
WHAT A GREAT WORK YOU DO ON BEHALF OF ALL JEWS. YOU ARE ALWAYS INVOLVED IN GREAT ACTS OF KINDNESS TOWARDS THE JEWISH PEOPLE, BRINGING THEM CLOSER TO TORAH AND MITZVOT
THERE IS NO ONE ELSE THAT DOES AS MUCH KINDNESS AS YOU DO, FOTUNATE IS YOUR LOT
NEVERTHELESS BE WARNED ABOUT SOME TROUBLING DEVELOPMENTS WHICH YOU SHOULD BE VERY CAREFUL ABOUT
YOU ARE MAKING THE REBBE INTO A FALSE MESSIAH AND WHO KNOWS WHAT ALL THIS WILL LEAD TO?
PLEASE LEARN HOW TO LOOSE, IF THE REBBE IS JUST THE REBBE, IS THAT NOT ENOUGH FOR YOU?
LET HASHEM DECIDE WHO THE MOSHIACH IS, BE PATIENT, BECAUSE NOBODY KNOWS YET WHO THE MOSHIACH WILL BE
From www.Israel613.com - Also many more (if I post, I would be accused of hatred, etc, but you can check it out yourself). Anyway their is no proof that Rabbi Shnerson was Moshiah, besides the fact that he and his followers presumed he was, since he was their leader, until he died, so then many still stayed with that opinion.
--- End quote ---
Who wrote this and how did they decide we are making the Rebbe into a "false Messiah". Can he back that up with facts sources and information, or does he just like to throw these terms around?
FYI: Only lately have people given Chabad credit for their kiruv work. Not too long ago people were also calling Chabad heretics for putting tefillin on with "goyim". We are always ahead of the times. First people protest, then they call us names...eventually they copy us and say it was their idea.
This cycle has gone on for a long time.
Tzvi Ben Roshel1:
Lubab go on that site, on the left hand side go down and click on Lubavitch, also on False Moshiachs, their are many things written their both in Hebrew and English.
Either way it cant be proven that he was the Moshiah, and the whole thing has to do with "my Rebbe", people just cant accept the fact that the Moshiach can come within anywhere from Israel and not particullarly from their group or sect.
Their is no proof, and the fact that one did "good things for the Jewish people", that can be said about a lot of people. 1 can argue that yeshu did the same, so therefor? or Shabti svi, or the many other false messiah's.
Also about kiruv work. 1 question for you. Why are their chabad houses in religious neighborhoods? If the people are allready religious, why is their a need for a Chabad kiruv organization?
Navigation
[0] Message Index
[#] Next page
[*] Previous page
Go to full version