Torah and Jewish Idea > Torah and Jewish Idea
Lessons In Chabad Hasidic Philosophy (in light of recent misunderstandings)
Lubab:
--- Quote from: q_q_ on February 22, 2008, 12:13:55 PM ---
--- Quote from: lubab on February 22, 2008, 09:33:20 AM ---
--- Quote from: q_q_ on February 22, 2008, 09:30:15 AM ---I did hear from somebody, who I think is a misnaged because
a)I read on the sichosinenglish site that (from what I understand) misnagdim take tzimtzum more literally, and it seems he did.
b)speaking to some chabad rabbis, they all disagreed with this guy
He made a very clear argument.. Kabbalistic of course.
He said that there are many worlds. And G-d is everywhere, but in this world we do not see him, because G-d constricted himself, (not contracted). So all objects around us are like his garments. And that is why we do not pray to them. To pray to an object would be like addressing somebody's ear or coat instead of him.
So how can we know how to worship him.. Only from the instructions he gave us. His mitzvot, are his will for us to do on earth.
The chabad guy said G-d did not constrict himself. He constricted his light / his presence.
I have never delved further. I just heard a lecture from the misnaged guy and asked a chabad guy about what I had heard.
--- End quote ---
Yes. That's the basic debate. Whether G-d actually removed Himself from this world or He just removed the REVELATION of Himself i.e. He's here, we just don't see Him.
In my view it's impossible to say that G-d actually removed His presence from this world and still be G-d. Saying this would impose several limitations and imperfections on G-d's abilities.
--- End quote ---
Neither view that I stated claims that he removed himself.
--- End quote ---
Well if He didn't remove Himself that means He's still here. We many not all understand this, but I believe this is the truth.
q_q_:
Either way, this kabbalistic concept of G-d is everywhere , seems to go against RAMBAM`s mishneh torah hilchot yesodei hatorah. Where the RAMBAM makes statements such as that the words like left right up down do not apply to G-d.
Of course, if G-d is everywhere, then G-d has a form that fills it, he occupies space, he is left right up and down.
There is a concept of G-d`s presence being everywhere, or G-d can be found everywhere, and I think kabbalists and non kabbalists might accept that one. It is a step away from saying G-d is everywhere.
q_q_:
Note- that contradiction between G-d being everywhere, compared with RAMBAM, was pointed out to me by the mesora site, an anti chabad site. I had put to him the arguments of Gutman/Gil Locks. On his book and website he pushes a very literal G-d is everywhere concept. His book has a foreward from the lubavitcher rebbe saying it will bring many jews back to yiddishkeit. Gurman Locks does have a few quotes to support it, from tenach..
I cannot vouch for the translations here
Jer 23:24
"Can a man hide himself in hiding places, So I do not see him?” declares the Lord. “Do I not fill the heavens and the earth?” declares the Lord."
Deut 4:39
some translate as "... G-d; in the heaven above and upon the earth below there is nothing else" <-- some interpret as g-d is all and all is g-d.
Others translate as "there is no other" at the end of that verse.
And this one, less so..
Milo Chol Haaretz Kevodoh (from kedusha in the amida)
"The whole earth is full of his glory".
A traditional and I think only (according to any school of thought), interpretation of The whole earth is filled with G-d's glory, is the following-
Everywhere we look we see G-d's handywork, it is testimony to his wisdom.
Not that he can take up space.
judeanoncapta:
--- Quote from: lubab on February 22, 2008, 09:33:20 AM ---
--- Quote from: q_q_ on February 22, 2008, 09:30:15 AM ---I did hear from somebody, who I think is a misnaged because
a)I read on the sichosinenglish site that (from what I understand) misnagdim take tzimtzum more literally, and it seems he did.
b)speaking to some chabad rabbis, they all disagreed with this guy
He made a very clear argument.. Kabbalistic of course.
He said that there are many worlds. And G-d is everywhere, but in this world we do not see him, because G-d constricted himself, (not contracted). So all objects around us are like his garments. And that is why we do not pray to them. To pray to an object would be like addressing somebody's ear or coat instead of him.
So how can we know how to worship him.. Only from the instructions he gave us. His mitzvot, are his will for us to do on earth.
The chabad guy said G-d did not constrict himself. He constricted his light / his presence.
I have never delved further. I just heard a lecture from the misnaged guy and asked a chabad guy about what I had heard.
--- End quote ---
Yes. That's the basic debate. Whether G-d actually removed Himself from this world or He just removed the REVELATION of Himself i.e. He's here, we just don't see Him.
In my view it's impossible to say that G-d actually removed His presence from this world and still be G-d. Saying this would impose several limitations and imperfections on G-d's abilities.
--- End quote ---
That's because it is a paradox.
True, How could the infinite being actually not exist somewhere, namely this physical world?
That WOULD put a restriction on him. But so would saying that he does exist within this physical world because that would put Billions or Trillions of limits on him, because now you're saying he exists within every atom, every cell, every stone, every leaf, every stone, every chair, every person.
So either way imposes limits on God's abilities, that's why you're not supposed to be MeChakker past the tzimtzum, you just end up trapped in endless paradoxes.
Lubab:
--- Quote from: judeanoncapta on February 24, 2008, 12:46:56 AM ---
--- Quote from: lubab on February 22, 2008, 09:33:20 AM ---
--- Quote from: q_q_ on February 22, 2008, 09:30:15 AM ---I did hear from somebody, who I think is a misnaged because
a)I read on the sichosinenglish site that (from what I understand) misnagdim take tzimtzum more literally, and it seems he did.
b)speaking to some chabad rabbis, they all disagreed with this guy
He made a very clear argument.. Kabbalistic of course.
He said that there are many worlds. And G-d is everywhere, but in this world we do not see him, because G-d constricted himself, (not contracted). So all objects around us are like his garments. And that is why we do not pray to them. To pray to an object would be like addressing somebody's ear or coat instead of him.
So how can we know how to worship him.. Only from the instructions he gave us. His mitzvot, are his will for us to do on earth.
The chabad guy said G-d did not constrict himself. He constricted his light / his presence.
I have never delved further. I just heard a lecture from the misnaged guy and asked a chabad guy about what I had heard.
--- End quote ---
Yes. That's the basic debate. Whether G-d actually removed Himself from this world or He just removed the REVELATION of Himself i.e. He's here, we just don't see Him.
In my view it's impossible to say that G-d actually removed His presence from this world and still be G-d. Saying this would impose several limitations and imperfections on G-d's abilities.
--- End quote ---
That's because it is a paradox.
True, How could the infinite being actually not exist somewhere, namely this physical world?
That WOULD put a restriction on him. But so would saying that he does exist within this physical world because that would put Billions or Trillions of limits on him, because now you're saying he exists within every atom, every cell, every stone, every leaf, every stone, every chair, every person.
So either way imposes limits on G-d's abilities, that's why you're not supposed to be MeChakker past the tzimtzum, you just end up trapped in endless paradoxes.
--- End quote ---
You know. I am perfectly happy to leave it at what you just said above.
I do think there are answers to this paradox given in hasidic philsophy and I've tried to give a few analogies that might open the window of understanding, but I would not try to force it on anyone.
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