"Affirmative Action" Used For Women

[adam613]

The 1964 Civil rights law affected women too. So a fact is a fact. Otherwise, JTF also engages in Political Correctness when it comes to women. There are affirmative programs for women and to pretend otherwise is wrong. If it makes it harder for me to get married by saying the truth fine. Somebody has to be the bad cop. The reality is some of the younger men will find out soon enough that some women unless you are a complete doormat will have no interest in you and some even if you are a doormat they won't marry you. IN the Orthodox world in America a large percentage of men and women in their 20's and 30's are single.

[Scriabin]

So why isn't there a section for 'Feminism'?

JTF is POLITICALLY CORRECT when it comes to women.

[wonderfulgoy]

So why isn't there a section for 'Feminism'?

JTF is POLITICALLY CORRECT when it comes to women.

To lump women into the same group as evil blacks and Muslims I agree would be disgraceful.  Women SHOULD be seen as having angel-like potential; women are Sacred in G-d's own eyes, white women are the strongest proof of G-d's creation.  Anyone who implies that the white woman has evolved from primitive life forms is desecrating G-d and the entire universe and should be put to death.

That being said, the modern woman is certainly fallen.

It is the fallen nature of the woman which should be lamented, not her achieving more in society per se.  If woman used her new power properly, for G-dly and cooperative purposes, rather than trying to out-do her men, feminism would be a gift rather than a curse.

[Scriabin]

So why isn't there a section for 'Feminism'?

JTF is POLITICALLY CORRECT when it comes to women.

To lump women into the same group as evil blacks and Muslims I agree would be disgraceful.  Women SHOULD be seen as having angel-like potential; women are Sacred in G-d's own eyes, white women are the strongest proof of G-d's creation.  Anyone who implies that the white woman has evolved from primitive life forms is desecrating G-d and the entire universe and should be put to death.

That being said, the modern woman is certainly fallen.

It is the fallen nature of the woman which should be lamented, not her achieving more in society per se.  If woman used her new power properly, for G-dly and cooperative purposes, rather than trying to out-do her men, feminism would be a gift rather than a curse.

I agree.

[adam613]

>It is the fallen nature of the woman which should be lamented, not her achieving more in society per se.  If woman used her new power properly, for G-dly and cooperative purposes, rather than trying to out-do her men, feminism would be a gift rather than a curse.

Well a women actually being a real women is not feminism. The term feminism implies female superiority. Imagine men going around all day saying they were masculinists or getting a few wacked out women to support them. How would the average women feel about it? In genesis
1:27 it says "So g-d created created man in his image in the image of g-d he created them male and female he created them. Both male and females are equally important and I am disturbed when the men aren't giving the credit they deserve. Abraham had to fight nimrod and was thrown into a furnace and g-d performed a miracle and saved him. Sarah didn't have this done to her. Yes, she saved her son Issac from Ismael by telling Abraham that Ismael could not live with Issac and kicking Hagar and Ismael out and deserves much credit for this. They both made contributions that are different but both were equally important. Without both the Jewish people would not be here today.

Lastly, since JTF has said that Jews could be protected by nonjews why is it the JTF somehow thinks that men can't protect women. THere is no evidence that women were mistreated and abused and that this kind of behavior was ever tolerated in the United States and this was at a time when only men that owned property could vote or if their husband was dead the wife could vote. Feminism at it's core no matter how you slice it is suggesting that men in general would beat and abuse women without empowering women and showing favortism towards them and I completely disagree with that. Many communities and judges from what I read thankfully did not tolerate men who "legitimately" abused their wives.

[adam613]

Unfortunately, our Rabbi's never reward men for any good that they do. These same Rabbi's said you shouldn't spend too much time talking to a women and we say a blessing thank g-d for not making me a women. That is feminism.  Solomon said in proverbs it is much easier to find a righteous men then it is a righteous women and while you will find an occaisonal righteousan in 2,000 women you will not find a righteous women. The prophets criticized the women a lot for materialism and other issues. You like to selectively pick the "good" passeges on women.   

I have to completely disagree with you overall. Overall I think both men and women could be evil. As someone that has a fairly large family I really overall don't agree in general. There are some evils women commit that men do not. But, of course, we never give credit to men when credit is due to the men.
But, again, Yacov, you avoid the problems feminism is causing.

SOME OF THE MEN WERE WORRIED THEY WOULD BE THROWN OUT ON THE STREET BY THEIR FAMILY IF THEY DIDN'T DO WHAT THEY WERE TOLD IN GUSH KATIF. JAIL WASN'T THEIR WORRY.  THE RABBI'S WOULD HAVE NOTHING TO SAY IF BOYS WERE THROWN OUT BY THEIR FAMILIES. My sick Uncle George Klein who lives in Queens Kue Gardens said he would throw his own son out on the street if he had the problems I had with my father. I couldn't believe what I was hearing.

You want to still punish men for the sin of the golden calf which happened 3,000 years ago and think it is OK to bash men which you do think it is OK because you ignore all the posts where I have mention this and others agree with me. G-d doesn't sanction this. We were only suppose to punish 4 generations. In terms of having a Rosh Chodes Shuir for women that I don't really have a problem with that although we never credit men for the good they have done. We only call them monsters whenever we slip.  You do support feminism Yacov and I don't like the fact that as your fellow jew you don't take what I say seriously.

Just focuses on blacks is not going to work in my opinion and this is not why men in Israel are afraid to fight or don't see any reason to fight because they don't get any praise and, yes, some discrimination should be in place for men that put their life on the line. I also think women who have children and are married in certain part time or even appropriate full time jobs should be given preferences. 

[adam613]

I just wanted to add that there are a lot of Jewish Kabalah cults and most of the people involved in these touchy feely cults are women. And they attract a lot of Jewish women.

Thats it for my posting for a few days by the way as I am going away for the weekend. Happy Chanukah to all.

[adam613]

Yacov, let me answer your questions because I hate to say it I don't know where you get your idea's from.

This sin of the golden calf the punishment wasn't banishment from Israel.
It wasn't all the men by the way but it was enough that we can't have a minority of bad people.

In terms of all the women going into Israel I don't know where you get this from. The jews were decreed to wonder in the desert for 40 years until all their carcasses dropped because of the sin of the spies, not because of the golden calf. YOU CAN LOOK IN NUMBERS (BAMIDBAR) CHAPTER 14: Verses 26-37. No where does it say that the women were exempt from this decree. Only children under 20 were exempt which it states in the verses. And Joshua and Caleb and I'm sure their wives too. But no where does it say the other women were exempt from this punishment and if the wives of the men were exempt I would think the torah would specifically say so (which it does not) as it does with the children under 20 of these men. This is a new psat to me. I was never taught that only the men were punished for the sin of the spies. The women should have spoken out that they disagree with their husband and do love Israel yet they went along with their husbands. Who knows who started it also. Men always assume the more public role but women behind the scenes sometimes convince men of a certain action. Either way, the women should have protested and they did not and therefore, they are also guilty and the torah supports my position.

In terms of women's "sprituality" that is a very subjective term. G-d rewards us on our actions not on our "spirituality". This new psat that women are better then men from what you state in Bereshit I was never taught this as a child and I hear this more with Kabalah which "all" the kabalah in my opinion is very suspect.  I have heard the stupidest things with kabalah and I would like a source for this because it is new to me. G-d had to create one sex before the other in the same species but to draw that one is better then the other or more "spiritual" is very subjective. G-d specifically states that g-d created both men and women in g-d's image which clearly he gave both men and women the ability to reason and free choice to chose good and reject evil.

Issiah 3:12 criticizes Israel because "women dominate them". Maybe Issiah didn't learn Kaballah.

[adam613]

COULD YOU PLEASE BRING ME PROOF. I HAVE NEVER HEARD THAT BEFORE. WHY THEN DOES THE TORAH NOT MENTION THAT THE WOMEN WERE ALLOWED TO GO INTO ISRAEL. It only says children under 20 were allowed. I think you are 100% wrong. Please give me some proof.

[adam613]

>If you are going to reject the things Torah says that are pro-women, people will say Judaism is sexist if they only see the other stuff.

First of all if JTF says it is telling the truth it shouldn't make an exception for women.

Secondly, JTF and the Kahanist movement hasn't been too successful attracting women of any kind with the strategy it uses now. If women want to be told they are always great they can go to a leftist site for why would they go to JTF for that when JTF is so contriversol in other area's to be told that they are great  for no other reason that they were born a woman. They can go to a feminist leftist site for that.

Thirdly, I myself have said AND THE TORAH MENTION SOME AREA'S THAT WOMEN'S UNDERSTANDING WAS BETTER THEN MEN.I do believe that and studies have proven it too that in some area's women are naturally better then men are. My concern Yacov is if JTF ONLY says the positive about women it distorts the Torah It should tell women that in some area's, yes, men are naturally better then women are and not be afraid to say this. But they can remind the women that in other area's they have more skills and in certain life area's like children and in the home they have more control then the men do. This "equality of results" is very harmful and is harming women and harming general relations between men and women and is harming marriages and children. It is an issue I honestly feel the Kahanist movement can't ignore for the good of our own people and America's people but also to g-d forbid protect itself from woman that have evil agenda' which if it is too naive towards woman it may be hurt by evil woman.

Women are not little men.

[adam613]

>Did you ever hear of The Oral Torah?

Of course I have Yacov. I have leanred Gemarah. I have never heard this before and I think you are mistaken. The 10 spies were men and that is likely what the Talmud is talking about. The 10 spies were punished more severely then everybody else and they died instantly. Some say that is why men need 10 for a minyan. To make up for this sin. But everybody else was punished with 40 years in the desert and the only one's allowed in Israel were Caleb and Joshua and any child under 20. The Talmud is to explain in more detail the Bible or items that are vague not to make stuff up. The Talmud has to bring proof from the Chumash which in many cases it does like with Sabbath and all melacha's being melacha's that were performed in the Mishkan. Clearly reading the Hebrew says that once the spies brought their "evil report" all the Jews cried that night.  It makes no mention that it was only the men.

To continue to prove my point, Yacov, we do reward the woman for not being involved in the golden calf which some men were involved in. We don't celebrate the fact that woman weren't involved with this sin of the spies. I know of no such celebration. Why not, Yacov?

Don't tell me it is in the oral Torah. I think you are very mistaken, Yacov. The text couldn't be clearer that all the Jews once the report was given did not want to go to Israel. It says they cried all night. Was that only the men. Were the women in some other location. Like I said it is true that the spies that brought the evil report were 10 men but once that report was given the woman just as much as the men did not want to go to Israel and complained. I have never heard any other interpretation Yacov and I did go to Yeshiva. If you want to tell me this find it for me. I have never ever heard this.

[adam613]

>I heard that Pharaoh's daughter Batya, a convert to Judaism, also entered Israel because she was a woman and entered with the other women.

BECAUSE SHE WAS A WOMAN. No! Because she helped in saving in Moses. It wasn't because of her gender. It was because of her actions.

>entered with the other women.
What other women. You can't just say vague stuff, Yacov.

[adam613]

>It is true that some women died such as Miriam but not all.


I wish you look in numbers chapter 14 just ONCE. I have looked at it three times. Stop talking at the top of your head. It is obvious you DO NOT know what you are talking about. The only women that did not die out in the wilderness were the women under 20 and Caleb and Joshua's wife. The Bible is clear. If there is some altrenative explanation I have never heard it nor have you convinced me otherwise.

[adam613]

In this case Yacov the burden of proof is on you. Artscroll doesn't give this interpretation and a lot of times they will mention a very liberal interpretation without telling you the whole story. Even Artscroll doesn't say what you are saying. To assume without proof that the men are guilty and the women aren't I think this is bad. You complain about others who you feel don't care about other Jews but to believe men are guilty and women aren't because somebody told you that doesn't suggest you care that much about other Jews especially Jewish men. WIthout any commentary unless the Torah uses the hebrew word Ish which means the male gender which it does not why would you assume only the women are guilty? I'm sure if someone told you only the woman guilty you would want proof and not just take someone at their word. You act like most women are right wingers while most men are appeaser's and today that is not true. I don't why it would be true in the past. It openly says that the only exception were children under 20 and Caleb and Joshua and their wives. The ony part of this is true that is likely what you may have heard is that the 10 spies who gave the bad report were men.  THere is no holiday for women for not being involved because they also did not want to go to Israel after they heard this bad report.
   In this case there is no reason for me to ask Chaim because you haven't proved anything. To hold a view that men are guilty and women are innocent because you heard it from somebody is very bad. It is an open and shut case. I stated above what I think you may have heard. I can't ask Chaim on every disagreement we have. I only get 1 question a week and this is pretty obvious to me. You should be able to debate me or any of the posts and not hide behind Chaim. Anyway, if you don't know then you assume both the men and women are equally guilty until you can prove otherwise. You take the approach men are guilty until proven innocent and women are innocent until proven guilty and that is not right. Why you feel that what I have to say is meaningless and you don't take without any seriousness unless I ask Chaim also bothers me.

   Also, I know you want to get married. I have to be honest though that giving women insincere flattery or discriminating against men to impress women in the end is not going to work. I was a little naive at one point too. Beleive me for someone who is dated and seen a lot of bad stuff women have done to men. When women get what they don't really deserve or earn they just have more desires for other things they don't deserve. We know Pirkei Avot says if someone has $100 they want 200. If they have 200 they want 400. Rabbi's that have given in to demands that aren't really right to women the women they have more demands that aren't right. No matter how much you give the women there are still certain disadvandages to being a women and the women will still feel that way no matter how much you give them. So the only real answer is to be honest that both men and women have different advandages and disadvandages and that is why men and women need to marry each other.