how many Jews are in the forum?

[bubby]

ummmm mills gone quiet after accusing some others as being anti Torah, debate builds flez your torah muscles!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[bubby]

i understand you have to be suspicious of people but we werwe debating jewishness , you seem hostile to me and i don`t want you to feel insulted i only asked questions ,you and i have the same heart toward Israel am i not entitled to ad my penny even though we may disagree we still share the same opes and fears. im not trying to insult you Mills simply stated the aims of this forum or one of them is to engage in debate,therefore strenghening our argument in any one area. i stand by what i have said but respect and honour your statements.

[bubby]

appreciate what you say mills but i`m not a leftist and you still haven`t answered the anti torah questions .why say you are not here for debate when the actual thread developed into a debate and you actually contributed.

[bubby]

hi MIlls just re read your last post, wow im sorry you took that personally, iv`e been unintentionally and insensitive to you, and i apollogise, im sorry. Bob

[mord]

This thread is insane a person who converts according to Halacha is Jewish..have you all gone insane maybe some of you have

[cjd]

This thread is insane a person who converts according to Halacha is Jewish..have you all gone insane maybe some of you have

I'm with you mord the past few days with this thread and a few others has really been sad. We need all our members working together. Stuff like this is not going to help us accomplish our goals.

[mord]

This thread is insane a person who converts according to Halacha is Jewish..have you all gone insane maybe some of you have

I'm with you mord the past few days with this thread and a few others has really been sad. We need all our members working together. Stuff like this is not going to help us accomplish our goals.

This thread is insane a person who converts according to Halacha is Jewish..have you all gone insane maybe some of you have

I'm with you mord the past few days with this thread and a few others has really been sad. We need all our members working together. Stuff like this is not going to help us accomplish our goals.

Yes, I agree. I cannot believe that there are those who do not accept "converts" (who converted under hallacha) as 100% Jewish. I mean, it boggles the mind. After all, it is written how born Jews must treat "converts" in other words "converts who converted", not "gentiles who converted". When they do it hallachically, then no born Jew can see them as any less, not spiritually or physically. They BOTH have that Jewish soul and they BOTH were at Mt. Sinai. Period. End of Story. 
After all there have been great people who are either "converts" themselves or descended from converts, they are as Jewish as any born Jew.

Exactlly the people who become Jewish their spirits were at Sinai

[bubby]

then why have these threads, when someone adds and it doesn`t fit with what most want,it all of a sudden becomes insane ,why,
i agree the site is about much more, but if this site is to be truley democratic then let people put thier penny into the slot. Dont allow a question to posited and spiral into debate and then say this is "insane" just because someone has challenged your way of thinking on a particular issue. Are yo a Jew" what is a Jew"= debate

[bubby]

" when someone becomes Jewish thier spirits were at sinai" that`s hindu philosophy ie reincarnation, did you get that from Hatorah?

[mord]

" when someone becomes Jewish thier spirits were at sinai" that`s hindu philosophy ie reincarnation, did you get that from Hatorah?

Yes

[cjd]

then why have these threads, when someone adds and it doesn`t fit with what most want,it all of a sudden becomes insane ,why,
i agree the site is about much more, but if this site is to be truley democratic then let people put thier penny into the slot. Dont allow a question to posited and spiral into debate and then say this is "insane" just because someone has challenged your way of thinking on a particular issue. Are yo a Jew" what is a Jew"= debate

Welcome to the forum bubby. Debate is good for certain issues but some subjects tend to cause division and hard feelings between members. We can do with out that. Our forum is not like the average forum our members are like family and friends. This forum supports JTF and its goals for Israel and America. We can't afford to be sidetracked on issues that will distract us form them goals.

[bubby]

full on lets end this discussion here, i fully support everything you guys are doing, shalom

[Dr. Dan]

A non Jew who is not converted but follows Judaism is less a Jew than an secular ethnic Jew, at least in my opinion.  I'm not really sure why I feel this way in my gut, but there is something about the souls of ethnic Jews that set them apart from the rest. Not saying we are better than anyone else..just saying something unique and different than non ethnic Jews.

Before anyone jumps down Dr. Dan's point, I would like to comment on it.
I think there is a point here. Naturally a non-Jew who does NOT convert but follows Judaism is not to be considered Jewish, yes this is accurate. In fact, there could be dangers since the Gentile could be imitating a Jew and should not celebrate the holidays that a Jew must.

And even with some "converts" I STILL agree with Dr. Dan's position. TRUE and genuine converts will already have that Jewish soul in them, trying to return home to Judaism. They have that spark in them, the soul is already there. Judaism was part of them always and they came home.
But other converts are NOT so genuine. And here is when it does NOT count! One should not convert to Judaism because they "want to". It's not something to take lightly, people want lots of things, so why treat Judaism like another thing someone wants. It should be something stronger than a mere "want" but a calling of the soul.

Also there are people who supposedly "fall in love" with a Jew and decide that they want to convert. They do it for someone but when they get divorced, they quickly go back to their old religion (most of the time). And then there are those who become "fascinated" with Judaism and want to learn more (I know a woman like that who converted, now she doesn't even keep Shabbat or kosher).

So all these are wrong reasons to convert and it's not really valid, so the person is not really Jewish since they were NOT being truthful and put their hole heart and soul into it. DO they have a Jewish soul. not if they were not REALLY converting because their soul directed them home.

So, in a way, I understand Dr. Dan.

well, I'll add, there are some converts who truely converted with teh right intentions who might not seem to have that Jewish soul, but are doing everythign well..Not saying you will be or are one of those types.

I think in the end, it doesn' tmatter unless you are righteous and walk with Gd and love others and try to do the right things in life.

For those converts who might not have that Jewish soul, their children definately will.

[Dr. Dan]

hi i`m a newbie,im a bit confused now, i thought that to be a Jew one had to be a descendant of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob,and to qualify as an Arab it is Abraham, Isaac and Ishmael. In the book of Ruth she is a true convert but is still described as a Moabite, anyone shed some light on this for me??

Arabs are descended from Abraham and Ishmael, not Isaac, since Isaac and Ishamel were brothers. But Ishmael's descendants did mix with Esau, Isaac's son.

This kind of talk should remain in brian-dead forums like StørmFrønt.   There is NO WAY!!!! that all Arabs are from Abraham and/or Ishamel.  THis is UTTER nonsence propogated by Arab Nazis, and by books written by madmen, and by children of madmen. 

And also, I am certain that there are Jews that have NO direct lineage to any of the above.  whether they are Ashkenazi , Sefaradi, or Mizrahi,  I guarantee that in the last few millenium, there WERE families who converted to Judaism out of ideology and NOT out of blood. even though this breaks the rules.

Brian

no Briann, most likely, most Arabs are decended from Ishmael...they didnt' just come up from thin air like that...

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

" when someone becomes Jewish thier spirits were at sinai" that`s hindu philosophy ie reincarnation, did you get that from Hatorah?

excuse me dont say that parts of the Torah and hindu philosophy  .

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

yes Mills converts are those that are spiritually associated which could be argued to be more important than physical association, but what i am saying is a Jew by absolute definition must come from Jacob. Now some Jews have no spirituality no conciousness of G-d and care little for thier "Jewish heritage" however the fact is they remain Jews by birth.Instance, convert in nazy germany can quickly become non convert to save some skin ,but ethnic jew finished, not that convert would do so just a possibility, i hope i haven`t offended anyone im just say ethnicity=absolute, convert spiritually simpathetic ,recognises the truth of torah,doesn`t make them Jews.

You are wrong.  You say that a Jew "by absolute definition must come from Jacob."  How many times has it already been said in this thread, A Jew by absolute definition is any person that was born to a Jewish mother or any person that converted.  You are not a Jew solely by "ethnicity" or as you say "ethnicity=absolute" convert spiritually sympathetic, where did you get this garbage from?  A Jew is anyone who was born Jewish or joined the Jewish nation through spiritual conversion.  This is Absolute because this is ruling according to Torah.  We are Jewish in our souls, and we are not a religion of genetics. 

King David descended from a convert and you don't see anyone questioning whether the house of David is 'really' Jewish.  They are Jewish.  And from that house will come the Moschiach, may it be soon in our days.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

then why have these threads, when someone adds and it doesn`t fit with what most want,it all of a sudden becomes insane ,why,
i agree the site is about much more, but if this site is to be truley democratic then let people put thier penny into the slot. Dont allow a question to posited and spiral into debate and then say this is "insane" just because someone has challenged your way of thinking on a particular issue. Are yo a Jew" what is a Jew"= debate

Judaism is not democratic.  It is defined by the Torah and the sages who were instructed by the Torah that their job is to guide us and interpret the law from the written Torah and Oral Torah.

[q_q_]

<snip>

no Briann, most likely, most Arabs are decended from Ishmael...they didnt' just come up from thin air like that...

there were many people on earth besides yishmael.

Only with islam, came Mohammed , who claimed descent from yishmael.
Only then  did the arabs start thinking of themselves as coming from yishmael.  

Nevertheless. The rabbis in the talmud , and so rabbis today, consider the arabs to be spiritually descended from yishmael. And they are..

As the tenach says. "Yishmael is a wild man, father of a wild race, his hand shall be against every man, and every man's hand shall be against him".

I have told that quote to muslims, years ago when I was in a muslim area , talking to them. One of them (a somalian muslim who knew arab racism) gasped in amazement at how true it was.  Another said "That cannot be there, you are just giving a quote from some book written in the last 200 years".

[MassuhDGoodName]

Re:  "...Our forum is not like the average forum our members are like family and friends..."

Precisely why I never travel to be home with the family during holidays.

[cjd]

Re:  "...Our forum is not like the average forum our members are like family and friends..."

Precisely why I never travel to be home with the family during holidays.

Some folks travel home only to find the family has moved and left no forwarding address

[Dr. Dan]

This thread is insane a person who converts according to Halacha is Jewish..have you all gone insane maybe some of you have

Mord and everyone else! Absolutely 100% correct one hwo converts to Judaism properly is as much a Jew as if he/she was born that way... no doubt!

One person posted somethign about makign a sacrifice to the Temple as being a requirement and i simply said, "but there hasn't been a temple for 2000 years or so, therefore are all conversions nullified?"

and somebody was kind enough to respond, "no...obviously not.." and i forgot the explanation given, but it was good enough to me.

Then bubbly came along and asked about ethnic jews etc etc..and I gave my answer in terms of Jewish souls...but the reality is whether ethnic or religous, you ahve to be righteous.

[mord]

" when someone becomes Jewish thier spirits were at sinai" that`s hindu philosophy ie reincarnation, did you get that from Hatorah?

Yes

Well I don't know about Mord but I got it from Chabad, not Aish haTorah. And Chabad is NOT the only ones who believe this and it is NOT reincarnation. No one ever mentioned reincarnation ever. It has nothing to do with it. It just means that those people were born at later times, just like many of the souls who were at Mt. Sinai have NOT been born yet. WHAT ARE you talking about, really!
HA HA HA, being clever again.

No i meant what you said just like a baby born tommorow who is Jewish their soul was at Mt. Sinai so was someone who becomes Jewish their soul as well was at mt.Sinai.You don'nt need reincarnation for that.The soul is same

[Dr. Dan]

This thread is insane a person who converts according to Halacha is Jewish..have you all gone insane maybe some of you have

I'm with you mord the past few days with this thread and a few others has really been sad. We need all our members working together. Stuff like this is not going to help us accomplish our goals.

This thread is insane a person who converts according to Halacha is Jewish..have you all gone insane maybe some of you have

I'm with you mord the past few days with this thread and a few others has really been sad. We need all our members working together. Stuff like this is not going to help us accomplish our goals.

Yes, I agree. I cannot believe that there are those who do not accept "converts" (who converted under hallacha) as 100% Jewish. I mean, it boggles the mind. After all, it is written how born Jews must treat "converts" in other words "converts who converted", not "gentiles who converted". When they do it hallachically, then no born Jew can see them as any less, not spiritually or physically. They BOTH have that Jewish soul and they BOTH were at Mt. Sinai. Period. End of Story. 
After all there have been great people who are either "converts" themselves or descended from converts, they are as Jewish as any born Jew.

wait, he doesn't accpet converts? who said this?  I haven't read this on this thread yet...i just saw one thing nik wrote and i questioned it...and bubbly only asked about ethnic Jews, but did not really get into the whole convert thing..i think this is all a misunderstanding.

[mord]

This thread is insane a person who converts according to Halacha is Jewish..have you all gone insane maybe some of you have

Mord and everyone else! Absolutely 100% correct one hwo converts to Judaism properly is as much a Jew as if he/she was born that way... no doubt!

One person posted somethign about makign a sacrifice to the Temple as being a requirement and i simply said, "but there hasn't been a temple for 2000 years or so, therefore are all conversions nullified?"

and somebody was kind enough to respond, "no...obviously not.." and i forgot the explanation given, but it was good enough to me.

Then bubbly came along and asked about ethnic jews etc etc..and I gave my answer in terms of Jewish souls...but the reality is whether ethnic or religous, you ahve to be righteous.

True even if you are born Jewish can you be sure who your family was 1500 yrs ago

[Tina Greco - Melbourne]

Re:  "...Our forum is not like the average forum our members are like family and friends..."

Precisely why I never travel to be home with the family during holidays.

Some folks travel home only to find the family has moved and left no forwarding address

We can only hope