Author Topic: Cowardice During Vietnam  (Read 2652 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Minuteman

  • Senior JTFer
  • ****
  • Posts: 299
Cowardice During Vietnam
« on: March 10, 2008, 11:48:51 PM »
It is amazing that during World War 1, young men would go to Canada just so they can enlist in the Canadian Army and go off and fight.  They wanted to fight for American even though America wasn't even in the war yet.  What is more amazing is that during Vietnam young men also would go to Canada, but this time it was to avoid fighting for their country.  They hid there claiming they were "against the war" while their fellow Americans were in Vietnam dying.  That was the ultimate disgrace in American history and it needs to be said that an overwhelming majority of youth who avoid service during Vietnam were flat out cowards.

newman

  • Guest
Re: Cowardice During Vietnam
« Reply #1 on: March 11, 2008, 03:31:39 AM »
Australia & New Zealand's military in WW1 was 100% vollunteer, too!

The difference between 1915 and 1967 was ONE thing............... culture! The once rural, conservative, religious culture of days past was poisoned by bolshevism from hollywood, academia and DC! >:(

Offline ThunderAppeal

  • Junior JTFer
  • **
  • Posts: 79
Re: Cowardice During Vietnam
« Reply #2 on: March 31, 2008, 02:45:01 PM »
I'm probably going to be the bad guy on this one, here is something I've read and can probably back up from Encyclopedia Britannica about Vietnam.

What originally happened was that North Vietnam had wanted to declare its independence from France in the 1950s.  N.V. was a France colony in the years leading up to WW2.
Truman had received a request for help from the French to suppress the Vietnamese.
The leaders of N.V. felt they needed to ally themselves with a strong nation so china/russia came into
the picture.
As the 'police action' quickly progress into something more in the late 1950's the French did what they are expert at, they ran.  Thereby leaving American forces holding the bag.
As Kennedy came into power he was an ardent supporter of Special Forces and supported those kind of operations in N.V.  When LBJ inherited the position he turned it into a full blown out war.

This is a brief history from the facts as I gathered them, if I am wrong I encourage anyone to correct me.

It is not my intention to disprespect the United States Military and the service they provide to keep this nation great.  If I am correct in what I am saying I hope that it only serves to learn for the future.

Offline Minuteman

  • Senior JTFer
  • ****
  • Posts: 299
Re: Cowardice During Vietnam
« Reply #3 on: March 31, 2008, 06:08:52 PM »
LBJ was a hugh mistake for this country.  His philosophy was that if we insert enough troops into South Vietnam, North Vietnam will loose it's will to fight.  He was determined to win the war this way, but at the same time he was deathly afraid that China and Russia were going to enter the war so he wouldn't bomb areas of North Vietnam and he would allow an invasion of North Vietnam and other areas where communist forces were lauching attacks.  He wanted to have his cake and eat it too.  At one point he even expressed his fear that in the bombing of North Vietnam, a bomb may accidently hit a Chinese or Russian weapons supply train igniting a world war.

Offline MassuhDGoodName

  • Ultimate JTFer
  • *******
  • Posts: 4542
Re: Cowardice During Vietnam
« Reply #4 on: March 31, 2008, 10:43:05 PM »
Re:  "...This is a brief history from the facts as I gathered them, if I am wrong I encourage anyone to correct me..."

You're not wrong.

If you'll research a little deeper, you will see that Ho Chi Minh lived in France when younger, and had begged Washington to side with him in liberating his country from French Imperialism.

France had a great many interests in IndoChina, and most likely "ran" after they realized it was not possible to either "prop up" a puppet government or defeat a "home-grown guerilla war of national liberation fought in tropical jungles."

The U.S. entered the war to replace the vacuum left by the French, yet found itself in a true quagmire for the very reasons as did the French.  The only real industry of N.Vietnam was bicycles, yet they were able with help from the Soviets and Chinese to fight a war of attrition against the U.S. and an international propaganda war in the world media.

The fact that former Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara recently admitted that he lied under oath to Congress in order to force America deeper into the Viet Nam War should indicate that many Americans accused of "cowardice" realized full well that we were being lied to by a Democratic administration, and simply had no desire to fight a phony war in a jungle against little squint-eyed brown men in black pajamas.

After many years it became more and more evident that manufacturers of armaments were in no hurry to end a war making billions of dollars in profits for them, just because other peoples' sons were coming home in boxes.

Our current debacles in Afghanistan and Iraq are eerily reminiscent of our Viet Nam debacle...not winning but simply fighting half-heartedly with highest tech weaponry against stone age people with no regards for their own lives...savages willingly to gladly die just knowing they might take one American life.

Supposedly, the U.S. learned that it is not possible to win a war only half-fought, in a part of the world about which we know little, and in which we have virtually no vital interests to protect.

Easy to look backwards after the fact, but after all is said and done we probably should have never gotten involved, or at the very least should have fought the war "all-out" for a total and quick victory.

Of course, the "Cold War" we were engaging in with both the USSR as well as Maoist Red China "set the stage" for many to believe that we were taking a stand against the spread of Communism.

In a very real sense we were fighting to stop Communism, but not fighting with the intentions of winning a total victory.

It's simply not possible to successfully prosecute a war if the latest nightly news poll dictates your plan of battle.

After all was said and done, Nixon and Kissinger declared "an honorable peace", and then we ran like rats off of a sinking ship.

The long term result was a severely traumatized U.S. public psyche, heavy casualities, many disabled vets including those who came back addicted to opium and heroin, etc., and a "well deserved" distrust of America's leadership.

There are some places in the world which always remain the same, and no amount of high-tech weaponry or training can change them; short of totally eradicating all human life there.

Such are Iraq, Iran, and Afghanistan...I predict that after all is said and done, we will eventually leave and those places will continue on as sickening outdoor toilets.






Offline ThunderAppeal

  • Junior JTFer
  • **
  • Posts: 79
Re: Cowardice During Vietnam
« Reply #5 on: April 01, 2008, 12:22:44 PM »
Our current debacles in Afghanistan and Iraq are eerily reminiscent of our Viet Nam debacle...not winning but simply fighting half-heartedly with highest tech weaponry against stone age people with no regards for their own lives...savages willingly to gladly die just knowing they might take one American life.

If we were to compare American military action during Vietnam with today I think our getting involved in Serbia should resonate pretty loudly.  Of course Serbia is much more advanced than Vietnam was at the time but the misguidedness of the political motivations seem the same.

Of course, the "Cold War" we were engaging in with both the USSR as well as Maoist Red China "set the stage" for many to believe that we were taking a stand against the spread of Communism.

At the risk of getting conspiratorial I would say that Trumans half hearted attempt in the early stages reveals his reluctance to get involved altogether.  He didnt want to help the French but his circle kept advising him to send people in.  Now to make the conspiracy leap.  I would say that since America had employed former nazi-fascist ss officers from WW2 to spy on the soviet union. Also, taking into account how virulently anti-communist the naz-fasists were that group saw an opportunity to antagonize the communist bloc country.
Thereby pushing America into a war and tarnishing its international image at the same time.
If not that group then I'd say that thinking of being paranoid of the communists.

Now, thats not to say that the communists werent a menace. 
But if I were to compare fascist regimes I would say the communists were stupid the nazis-facists were evil.
The communists killed mostly their own, the nazi-fascists would kill anyone.


It's simply not possible to successfully prosecute a war if the latest nightly news poll dictates your plan of battle.


Sadly, lessons learned and forgotten.

Such are Iraq, Iran, and Afghanistan...I predict that after all is said and done, we will eventually leave and those places will continue on as sickening outdoor toilets.

No, I dont agree with that entirely.  After 9/11 war was inevitable, the execution in Iraq may have been poor but Saddam Hussein was a good enough reason to go in.

In my opinion what in fact should have been done was if we were going into Iraq we should have either a) sent in more troops or b) focused on stabilizing the country.

By stabilizing I mean the population should have been subjugated, instate a night time curfew and warn people that anyone caught walking outside after dark will be either arrested or shot and killed.  Reason for this is because most, if not all IED's, were being planted at night.
So subjugating the population would have kept things under control resulting in less loss of life of Iraqi's and more importantly less loss of life of American soldiers.

Naturally this suggestion would have upset the human rights activists or someone from that group.

But as far as where Iraq, Afghanistan will progress from this point......I hope you are wrong.

Offline Minuteman

  • Senior JTFer
  • ****
  • Posts: 299
Re: Cowardice During Vietnam
« Reply #6 on: April 01, 2008, 01:19:20 PM »
Well to say which is more evil, communism or nazism is almost a moot question.   They both were so evil that it almost doesn't matter which one was worst.  It's like saying who was more evil John Wayne Gacy or Jeffery Dahmer.

Offline ThunderAppeal

  • Junior JTFer
  • **
  • Posts: 79
Re: Cowardice During Vietnam
« Reply #7 on: April 02, 2008, 05:10:37 PM »
Well to say which is more evil, communism or nazism is almost a moot question.   They both were so evil that it almost doesn't matter which one was worst.  It's like saying who was more evil John Wayne Gacy or Jeffery Dahmer.

Which one is more evil is certainly moot, but interestingly both groups see each other as a cure for the other.

Offline Ultra Requete

  • Master JTFer
  • ******
  • Posts: 2383
  • United We Stand, Dived We'll Fall.
Re: Cowardice During Vietnam
« Reply #8 on: April 02, 2008, 05:24:45 PM »
And They're both right an both wrong on that. Back to the topic it's good US have profesional army now as conscripts shud fight and die for their own country defence only not in colonial (mis)adventures. If the war woud be waged the Kenedy way only using native montagnard and green berets and vietenamese/kambodgan troops in entire Indo-China I can't say US woud be victorius but fallout in US woud be much less severe.   
Jeremiah 8:11-17

11 They dress the wound of my people as though it were not serious. Peace, peace, they say, when there is no peace.

12 Are they ashamed of their loathsome conduct? No, they have no shame at all; they do not even know how to blush. So they will fall among the fallen; they will be brought down when they are punished, says the LORD.

13 'I will take away their harvest, declares the LORD. There will be no grapes on the vine. There will be no figs on the tree, and their leaves will wither. What I have given them will be taken from them.'

14 Why are we sitting here? Gather together! Let us flee to the fortified cities and perish there! For the LORD our God has doomed us to perish and given us poisoned water to drink, because we have sinned against him.

15 We hoped for peace but no good has come, for a time of healing but there was only terror.

16 The snorting of the enemy's horses is heard from Dan; at the neighing of their stallions the whole land trembles. They have come to devour the land and everything in it, the city and all who live there.

17 See, I will send venomous snakes among you, vipers that cannot be charmed, and they will bite you, declares the LORD.

Love your Enemy
And Heap Burning Coals on his Head!!!
http://net-burst.net/revenge/love_and_wrath_of_God.htm

Offline MassuhDGoodName

  • Ultimate JTFer
  • *******
  • Posts: 4542
Re: Cowardice During Vietnam
« Reply #9 on: April 02, 2008, 10:30:16 PM »
ThunderAppeal:  "...But as far as where Iraq, Afghanistan will progress from this point......I hope you are wrong..."

I also hope and pray that I am wrong.

Offline dibblah

  • Full JTFer
  • ***
  • Posts: 132
Re: Cowardice During Vietnam
« Reply #10 on: April 02, 2008, 11:30:44 PM »
MassuhDGoodN

You have made some outstanding points.

However, it must be said that the US military were never cowards in the face of a dirty war. Whenever developed nations engage in war with less developed nations, it will never be a cavalry charge, arty, air and infantry support that will win the day; it will always be geurilla warfare.

One of the reasons why the French hung on to Viet Nam during the 50's was that the French Foriegn Legion played the game on the same level as the commies. The NVA were always completely callous of indigineous human life, but did draw the line at some point..This point was beyond the point that Americans were prepared to go in the 60's and 70's and for that matter any time thereafter. So whenever the FFL wanted to secure an area they rounded up local people and strapped them to their tanks, trucks and APC's and said sure go ahead and bomb us... No one ever did. Imagine that tactic being used in the US Viet Nam war.-It would never have happened, but it have worked though...

It is worth remebering that many FFL guys at Dien Bien Phu and years before in Viet Nam were ex- Wermacht, Russian or SS troops straight from the Russian Front who were completely inured to the horrors of war. They knew that if you want to play the game you must be prepared to be more horrific than the enemy or you will loose everytime.

My Uncle was a 3 tours VN Vet and an EOD (bomb disposal expert) Master Sergeant in the US Air Force.- How many of them do you think there are out there?

He got a personal citation from the President and one of the highest Air Force medals for defusing 100's of cluster mines on a runway that needed to be cleared for US wounded waiting to land and get emergency treatment. I am so proud of him and I know how many American lives he saved each time he defused a bomb. Every time he did it, each and every mine, in that heat, he was risking his own life in a heartbeat.

He was an inspiration to me growing up. When I was 4 years old he came home and placed a Phantom model airplane at the bottom of my bed along with a blanket with the Liberty bell on. Bless his heart.. it only becomes clear when you get older; what he went through and the fact that touches me hugely was that he thought of me when he came home.

It is these type of quiet heroes who have gone unrewarded and unremarked. He now lives on his pension in Florida and I go and see him whenever I can. My Dad (Also an Air force vet) and him still go and fly model aeroplanes together. I love to watch them; because they smile then.

Viet Nam will never go away for America, particularly whilst we still have so many vets and families for whom that war was such an abomination. Our challenge and duty is to get our troops home from another insurgent war in Iraq and Afgahnistan. There is not one of those fanatic Muslim terrorists who is worth a single American or British life.

Dibbz.

Offline ThunderAppeal

  • Junior JTFer
  • **
  • Posts: 79
Re: Cowardice During Vietnam
« Reply #11 on: April 03, 2008, 12:03:36 AM »
However, it must be said that the US military were never cowards in the face of a dirty war. Whenever developed nations engage in war with less developed nations, it will never be a cavalry charge, arty, air and infantry support that will win the day; it will always be geurilla warfare.

Dibbz, I know you werent responding to me but I hope you dont think I was implying in anyway that any American military are cowards.  I also hope you do not think that I had any intention of disrespecting the US Military in anyway.


Viet Nam will never go away for America, particularly whilst we still have so many vets and families for whom that war was such an abomination. Our challenge and duty is to get our troops home from another insurgent war in Iraq and Afgahnistan. There is not one of those fanatic Muslim terrorists who is worth a single American or British life.


What would have been a better alternative to the current war(s)?

Admitedly I can play arm chair general from the comfort of my home in the comfort of freedom provided by the US Military.  If you feel I deserve critisizm I am willing to accept it no matter how painful the truth is and how wrong I may be.  I dont see myself as a war monger, if anything I was a typical American about international affairs, ambivalent.  Yes 9/11 did change my perspective, could it have it been avoided?  Absolutely.
Congress spent how many millions investigating 2-3 hours of history.

However, my opinion is that the US is the most powerful nation in the world and now has the obligation to play the role of world police.  Whether the US has the resources to actually carry out those duties is another matter.  But if the US picks and chooses its battles carefully it will win favor in the eyes of the world and do justice to the US Constitution.

I guess what I am saying is dont let the momentum of my opinion prevent you from telling me I am wrong.

Offline dibblah

  • Full JTFer
  • ***
  • Posts: 132
Re: Cowardice During Vietnam
« Reply #12 on: April 03, 2008, 12:56:45 AM »
Thunder Appeal,

Thank you for your very considerate response. I have never gone and said the full story on-line about my family before...But that's beside the point. This goes way beyond my own family, there must be many JTF'ers who also have VN vets in their family.

I hear what you're saying Re: US Servicemen and thank you for making the distinction.

I firmly believe that when we established that the threat was coming from Taliban Afganistan ie. 9/11, then we had to make a move...and if Sadaam had WMD's then he also was a legitimate target.

The fact is that these countries did not enjoy the benefits of the rennaisance,
Decartism or anything else that resembles a half-way civilised evolution into the 21st century.

We can never face them on the same wavelength, methodology or short term objective.

To answer your point: we need to strike hard, debilitate the oppresive government in place and withdraw. ie. giving Saddam a trial was playing into Muzzie hands in Iraq. Take these people out and save the US so many dead sons.

In time, the rest of the world will realize that if you want to support mass terrorism and Islamic facshism then you will be slotted.- The message will get home pretty quick and we wont have to loose so many more American lives.

God Bless America.

Offline dibblah

  • Full JTFer
  • ***
  • Posts: 132
Re: Cowardice During Vietnam-Time to reflect
« Reply #13 on: April 03, 2008, 01:13:37 AM »

America's finest for evermore: 

God's speed to the happy hunting grounds lads. -From your oppos.




Offline dibblah

  • Full JTFer
  • ***
  • Posts: 132
Re: Cowardice During Vietnam
« Reply #14 on: April 03, 2008, 01:53:07 AM »
Also this one... Not bad for a fishead.....



As an ex-infantryman and in my very humble opinion, this is what its all about.

G-d Bless the UK, Israel & America
« Last Edit: April 03, 2008, 02:09:13 AM by dibblah »

Offline ThunderAppeal

  • Junior JTFer
  • **
  • Posts: 79
Re: Cowardice During Vietnam
« Reply #15 on: April 03, 2008, 12:01:48 PM »
Thunder Appeal,

Thank you for your very considerate response.


Thats really the least I could do for someone whose family fought for the US, and me being in the comfort of the safety of the rights given to me by The United States Constitution.
Especially when my opinion is about a situation that I have no direct knowledge of and do not want to transgress on the good name of any American Soldier.

To answer your point: we need to strike hard, debilitate the oppresive government in place and withdraw. ie. giving Saddam a trial was playing into Muzzie hands in Iraq.

Ok, no trial.  But wouldnt just leaving have created a power vacum?

A regional example would be Afghanistan during the soviet era.   

The reason for the soviet invasion is a whole new topic though.

But there was an American presence there in a capacity enough to tip the balance in the favor of the Afghanis.  Interestingly this was probably the kind of Special Operations that Kennedy may have had in mind in Vietnam.
Once the soviets retreated the American presence left and a power vacum ensued, partly due to the decimation by the soviets.
I had a conversation with someone who is a trained physician and he told me he was doing humanitarian aid in Afghanistan shortly after the soviets retreated.  He explained that the Afghanis basically did not want the Americans there anymore, the Americans said no problem packed up and left. 
Which makes sense since the thinking may have been that Afghanis are now free from the soviets so let them run things their way.
So power vacum ensues, unruly groups go into neighboring countries (Pakistan) causing turmoil.  Pakistan tries to get creative with keeping order from chaos.Creates madrassas, religious nut jobs go back into Afghanistan, aligning themselves with devious characters.
This would fall in line with the conspiracy theory that America funded bin laden, may his name be erased, that a lot of people like to hang their hate America sentiment on.
I dont think the US funded that devious group directly, the players involved may have been in contact, but they were small time players.  If anyhing Bl, may his name be erased, is an opportunist much like any other fascist is, he could have used his power to create a better Afghanistan.

Hence my reasoning that invading Iraq in and of itself was not bad, the planning was poor.
My thinking is that this started out as gang fight, that is what these so-called insurgents amounted to.
They surfaced because they saw an opportunity, if American planning was more forceful about creating
order the terrorists would have been quickly squashed.

Like I said earlier, subjugate the population, shut them in their homes, for their own good as well as for ours.
US Forces would have been better able to weed out friend from foe and much quicker.
Warn the population that anyone caught outside after a certain period of time will be arrested or shot and/or killed.
Create night time patrols and follow up on that curfew.

You are right that the West cannot converse with them in the same language no matter how good the interpreter. 
They are undisciplined, unruly, chaotic, become progressively violent when their demands arent met,
and mock any opportunity for reconciliation. 
America feeling guilty about their shortcomings is what our problem is.

Looking for WMD's was a noble proposition, but thats what the exclusive focus was on.

As far as the world is concerned America will always be seen as the bad guy in the eyes of certain groups,
we have to get over the mother teresa complex. 
America has to think about whose eyes are we going to be seen as bad guys?

If I may be so bold.

G-d Bless America.

Amen.

Offline Minuteman

  • Senior JTFer
  • ****
  • Posts: 299
Re: Cowardice During Vietnam
« Reply #16 on: April 03, 2008, 01:03:40 PM »
And They're both right an both wrong on that. Back to the topic it's good US have profesional army now as conscripts shud fight and die for their own country defence only not in colonial (mis)adventures. If the war woud be waged the Kenedy way only using native montagnard and green berets and vietenamese/kambodgan troops in entire Indo-China I can't say US woud be victorius but fallout in US woud be much less severe.   

The use of special forces was a high success and the U.S. Army Rangers were training and utilizing South Vietnamese Ranger units who were also very effective in fighting off the Communist forces.  The Montagnards or the "yards" fought very well with the Green Berets.