Torah and Jewish Idea > Torah and Jewish Idea
Ramchal on the study of Kabbalah
jdl4ever:
DanBenNoah, Yacov is right. Don't post things that divide Jews. The moderator of the forum is a Lubovitcher Rabbi and he won't take kindly to your remarks.
Tzvi Ben Roshel1:
Dont try to link opposition to hassidism as being a fact that the Kabbalah is not authentic (G-d forbid). Those who opposed Hasidim did not oppose it because of Kabbalah, or its teachings including reincarnation, demons, angels, etc, because the same Mitnagdim and their great leader the Vilna Gaon himself wrote books about these subjects.
Anyway who are the ones who are opposed to Kabbalah that we see? Only you - someone who isn't Jewish and doesn't doesn't know Judasim or the other very few, who might learn a little on Judasim but are not linked to Judasim threw a solid tradition and connection to a Rav. Maybe not everyone is as much connected to Kabbalah as others, but Kabbalah is defintly accepted by the vast majority if not all of the Jewish world that is accepted.
+ you only speak from complete ignorance of real Kabbalah and its teaching, if you would know the truth about it,(even in the little that is revealed here and their to us on a low level) you would be in awe of it, and would have a closer relationship with G-d.
Tzvi Ben Roshel1:
What are you talking about? Their is authentic Kabbalah and Torah and their is not authentic Kabbalah and Torah. For example Jews believe in the Tannach, but other people also believe in the Tannach and make their own interpretations, just because their is the wrong way of learning doesn't make the Tannach false (G-d forbid). Also with Kabbalah, their is the false (motivated by making $) and their is the authentic Kabbalah that was studied and is studied by the Hachamim of the nation and brought down in the Holy Writings and some Shiurim.
I dont care if you personally accept it or not, but please dont speak from ignorance and trash something that is Judaism, it is rather offensive.
+ Hassidim is different then Kabbalah. If one doesn't want to accept Hassidim, okay. But Kabbalah isn't only among Hassidim, it is part of almost all of Jewish tradition (expecially more soo amoung Sefardim).
q_q_:
--- Quote from: DanBenNoah on March 23, 2008, 09:05:12 PM ---
--- Quote from: q_q_ on March 23, 2008, 05:03:29 PM ---
--- Quote from: DanBenNoah on March 23, 2008, 04:03:16 PM ---In order to believe in Christian doctrines, someone must completely ignore logic and just depend on the "Holy Spirit" to enlighten them with a special knowledge as to why Torah says something it really doesn't say--and end up practicing idolatry.
In order to believe in Hasidism/Kabbalah, someone must completely ignore logic and depend on the fact that kabbalist proponent rabbis are just so dog gone smart that they somehow have a special knowledge as to why Jews should believe things that are contrary to what the Torah says--and end up practicing idolatry.
Same thing, different package.
--- End quote ---
You are completely ignorant.
There is nothing illogical in the idea that G-d has told us of a mystical dimension to the universe. And that we have a tradition on these matters. And that some rabbis have had heavenly teachers that have taught them these things.
Judaism is full of rituals, that only have any meaning if there is a mystical realm that these rituals impact.
No kabbalists are idolators, unless it is correct that some small group of lubavitchers believe their dead rabbi is G-d. And they are a tiny number that only existed since around 1990!
Most great rabbis .. The RAMBAN, the vilna gaon, the arizal , Rabbi Yosef Kairo, almost all of them, believe in kabbalah, and many of them have been great kabbalists.
Now.. Not all rabbis have been. Some following the RAMBAM very strictly or those trying to go back to just what we have in the talmud.. they may reject it. Or any new mysticism or anything new since the talmud. That's fine..
They may be right , Kabbalah may be wrong. But an large % of great rabbis have been master kabbalists, and it is certainly not idolatry.
Why don't you entertain us and tell us what aspect you think is idolatry?
--- End quote ---
See, this is what I'm talking about. Since Hasidism and kabbalah have supposedly been the practice of some "great" rabbis, who were supposedly smart, I'm "ignorant" because I criticize it. That's similar to a Christian regarding Jews who don't accept Jesus as "hard-hearted" or "resisting the Holy Spirit". These are both ideologies that require some special "inner knowledge" of sorts in order to justify the doctrines that are contradicted by the plain meaning of the Torah. Hasidism was a late innovation within Judaism, and it was opposed when it first began by the Mitnagdim. There was no divine revelation of Hasidism/kabbalah, it was just extrapolated back by its inventors kind of like Mormons extrapolate some of their scriptures back to Avraham. And the reason it is idolatry is for the same reason that other religions who teach reincarnation, astrology, pantheism, etc. are idolatry. It also seems to attract women in a witchcraft-esque way.
--- End quote ---
you are confusing things here.
Kabbalah existed long before Chassidut. Chassidut was 1700s.
(so forget chassidism, and your attack on that is clearly getting people upset anyhow.. unnecessarily. Since you are meant to be opposing kabbalah , not just one later kabbalistic movement)
RAMBAN was a kabbalist, and lived in the 1200s. Long before Chassidut.
What you also have to realise, is the concept of weight..
Certainly, revelation of kabbalah ... where the claim is that a rabbi has had a heavenly teacher, or a small number of rabbis have learnt a tradition from their rabbi, e.t.c.
It is nowhere near as strong as the revelation of the Torah at sinai, which was to the whole nation of Israel
The thing with other religions with their one man revelations, that could be made up. contradict the torah. So we know they are wrong.
Judaism does not base its truth on the revelation of kabbalah. You can be skeptical, but it is not idolatry.
And your argument was ridiculous. Just because an idolatrous religion teaches X , and kabbalah teaches X, does not make kabbalah idolatrous. In the same way that hinduism(which is idolatrous) teaches belief in the soul, and judaism does. But that does not make judaism idolatrous.
q_q_:
--- Quote from: DanBenNoah on March 23, 2008, 11:05:00 PM ---
--- Quote from: Tzvi Ben Roshel on March 23, 2008, 10:15:03 PM ---Dont try to link opposition to hassidism as being a fact that the Kabbalah is not authentic (G-d forbid). Those who opposed Hasidim did not oppose it because of Kabbalah, or its teachings including reincarnation, demons, angels, etc, because the same Mitnagdim and their great leader the Vilna Gaon himself wrote books about these subjects.
Anyway who are the ones who are opposed to Kabbalah that we see? Only you - someone who isn't Jewish and doesn't doesn't know Judasim or the other very few, who might learn a little on Judasim but are not linked to Judasim threw a solid tradition and connection to a Rav. Maybe not everyone is as much connected to Kabbalah as others, but Kabbalah is defintly accepted by the vast majority if not all of the Jewish world that is accepted.
+ you only speak from complete ignorance of real Kabbalah and its teaching, if you would know the truth about it,(even in the little that is revealed here and their to us on a low level) you would be in awe of it, and would have a closer relationship with G-d.
--- End quote ---
You speak of "real" kabbalah. Yet apparently no one here can deliver any respectable insight on kabbalah, mysticism or anything similar--when they try, it is virtually indistinguishable from the Hollywood kabbalah or pagan ideology. There hasn't been a single thing of value expounded here on Hasidism, only lip service to the fact that "real" kabbalah is the cat's pajamas and we must all stand in awe of this "real" kabbalah. I'm sorry, but I just don't stand in awe of Hitler being reincarnated and taking part in the afterlife.
And for every justification of Hasidic principles, there are also opinions that state the opposite--Newton's law of apologetics.
--- End quote ---
You haven't the foggiest idea what you are on about.
There are classic kabbalistic texts..
But any moron can identify the difference between that and the hollywood "kabbalah center".
Where do you get this nonsense about Hitler getting reincarnated in the afterlife.. Not from any text. With that attitude you have, you would be too prejudice illogical and uneducated to delve into anything.
Don't stand in awe of it. Stop looking at it. Just have some respect..
Anyhow,
even in the talmud there are two topics (maaseh merkava and maaseh beraishit) that are mystical were not revealed to the masses. And only passed down from great sage to great sage.. I would think that tradition is almost certainly lost by now..
So now with your faulty arguments, would you stand in awe of that and of the great rabbis that know it and get all jealous that you cannot know it.. And then conclude that it is all a load of rubbish.. because it is just too much for you to bear, that you are not privvy to intricate details of the secrets of the universe. Don't stare in awe. Look away.
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