Author Topic: Parents pick prayer over docs; girl dies  (Read 2389 times)

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Offline Dan

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Parents pick prayer over docs; girl dies
« on: March 28, 2008, 09:03:57 AM »
WESTON, Wis. - Police are investigating an 11-year-old girl's death from an undiagnosed, treatable form of diabetes after her parents chose to pray for her rather than take her to a doctor.

An autopsy showed Madeline Neumann died Sunday of diabetic ketoacidosis, a condition that left too little insulin in her body, Everest Metro Police Chief Dan Vergin said.

She had probably been ill for about a month, suffering symptoms such as nausea, vomiting, excessive thirst, loss of appetite and weakness, the chief said Wednesday, noting that he expects to complete the investigation by Friday and forward the results to the district attorney.

The girl's mother, Leilani Neumann, said that she and her family believe in the Bible and that healing comes from God, but that they do not belong to an organized religion or faith, are not fanatics and have nothing against doctors.

She insisted her youngest child, a wiry girl known to wear her straight brown hair in a ponytail, was in good health until recently.

"We just noticed a tiredness within the past two weeks," she said Wednesday. "And then just the day before and that day (she died), it suddenly just went to a more serious situation. We stayed fast in prayer then. We believed that she would recover. We saw signs that to us, it looked like she was recovering."

Her daughter — who hadn't seen a doctor since she got some shots as a 3-year-old, according to Vergin — had no fever and there was warmth in her body, she said.

The girl's father, Dale Neumann, a former police officer, said he started CPR "as soon as the breath of life left" his daughter's body.

Family members elsewhere called authorities to seek help for the girl.

"My sister-in-law, she's very religious, she believes in faith instead of doctors ...," the girl's aunt told a sheriff's dispatcher Sunday afternoon in a call from California. "And she called my mother-in-law today ... and she explained to us that she believes her daughter's in a coma now and she's relying on faith."

The dispatcher got more information from the caller and asked whether an ambulance should be sent.

"Please," the woman replied. "I mean, she's refusing. She's going to fight it. ... We've been trying to get her to take her to the hospital for a week, a few days now."

The aunt called back with more information on the family's location, emergency logs show. Family friends also made a 911 call from the home. Police and paramedics arrived within minutes and immediately called for an ambulance that took her to a hospital.

But less than an hour after authorities reached the home, Madeline — a bright student who left public school for home schooling this semester — was declared dead.

She is survived by her parents and three older siblings.

"We are remaining strong for our children," Leilani Neumann said. "Only our faith in God is giving us strength at this time."

The Neumanns said they moved from California to a modern, middle-class home in woodsy Weston, just outside Wassau in central Wisconsin, about two years ago to open a coffee shop and be closer to other relatives. A basketball hoop is set up in the driveway.

Leilani Neumann said she and her husband are not worried about the investigation because "our lives are in God's hands. We know we did not do anything criminal. We know we did the best for our daughter we knew how to do."

Offline Dr. Dan

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Re: Parents pick prayer over docs; girl dies
« Reply #1 on: March 28, 2008, 09:18:39 AM »
not supposed to rely on miracles...GOT IT PEOPLE?
If someone says something bad about you, say something nice about them. That way, both of you would be lying.

In your heart you know WE are right and in your guts you know THEY are nuts!

"Science without religion is lame; Religion without science is blind."  - Albert Einstein

Offline Dan

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Re: Parents pick prayer over docs; girl dies
« Reply #2 on: March 28, 2008, 09:20:26 AM »
What does the Torah say about this? and why is it misinterpreted by others?

Offline Dr. Dan

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Re: Parents pick prayer over docs; girl dies
« Reply #3 on: March 28, 2008, 09:25:13 AM »
the only thing which I know about this is that we should not rely on miracles (and therefore prayer alone).

It's common sense really..and the Torah has loads of rules that are based on common sense.


that's not to say that we shouldn't pray.. We SHOULD pray. And when we are successful we shoudl thank Gd for His help. And when we fail, we should thank Gd for His help also.
If someone says something bad about you, say something nice about them. That way, both of you would be lying.

In your heart you know WE are right and in your guts you know THEY are nuts!

"Science without religion is lame; Religion without science is blind."  - Albert Einstein

Offline Rubystars

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Re: Parents pick prayer over docs; girl dies
« Reply #4 on: March 28, 2008, 09:26:03 AM »
I think what a lot of people don't understand is that a situation like this is like praying for God to help you not to freeze to death in a blizzard, when you're standing inches away from a heated building with the door unlocked.

I think most of the time God will give you the answer to your prayers through natural means. Most Divine healing is done through the hands of doctors or medicines.

Offline nessuno

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Re: Parents pick prayer over docs; girl dies
« Reply #5 on: March 28, 2008, 09:27:51 AM »
That is called fanatacism not faith.
Be very CAREFUL of people whose WORDS don't match their ACTIONS.

newman

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Re: Parents pick prayer over docs; girl dies
« Reply #6 on: March 28, 2008, 09:34:18 AM »
Screwy behaviour in christians like this is simply due to a complete lack of understanding of the Hebrew scriptures.

Because christians have no Talmud or other form of proper interpretation of the Bible, christians do so many things contrary to Biblical teachings.

We have quakers (and others) who refuse to defend the country, priests who harbour illegal aliens and people like this who refuse to seek medical treatmet.

If they knew REAL (Jewish) scripture, they (like the Jews) would know that you MUST defend yourself and your country, you CAN enforce immigration law and you must NOT rely on miracles.

Offline Rubystars

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Re: Parents pick prayer over docs; girl dies
« Reply #7 on: March 28, 2008, 09:46:07 AM »
Newman, for that matter, there are plenty of Jews who don't agree with the Kahanist interpretation of their Divine rights to Israel, even though that I can see in the Bible that God clearly makes a promise to the Jews regarding that land.

How can I see that but they can't?

newman

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Re: Parents pick prayer over docs; girl dies
« Reply #8 on: March 28, 2008, 09:50:26 AM »
Newman, for that matter, there are plenty of Jews who don't agree with the Kahanist interpretation of their Divine rights to Israel, even though that I can see in the Bible that G-d clearly makes a promise to the Jews regarding that land.

How can I see that but they can't?

They see it AND they know it deep down. They just can't bring themselves to. The Israel issue has made Jews into victors for the first time in over 2000 years and the ghetto/victim mentality Jews in diaspora can't deal with it.

Offline nessuno

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Re: Parents pick prayer over docs; girl dies
« Reply #9 on: March 28, 2008, 10:28:25 AM »
You have to be a fanatic - not one who has faith - to not do what is right to save the life of your own child.
We have Je hova's who come into the hospital...on the sneak they take blood transfusions.  
Some have enough common sense to do the thing that will save their lives.  
I guess they have faith in God - that he will understand.
Not that I can understand those people at all...the Je hova's that is  ;)

Be very CAREFUL of people whose WORDS don't match their ACTIONS.

Offline FULL METAL JACKET

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Re: Parents pick prayer over docs; girl dies
« Reply #10 on: March 28, 2008, 10:33:02 AM »
That is called fanatacism not faith.

Exactly!
Formely known as "1986"

Offline Rubystars

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Re: Parents pick prayer over docs; girl dies
« Reply #11 on: March 28, 2008, 10:43:08 AM »
You have to be a fanatic - not one who has faith - to not do what is right to save the life of your own child.
We have Je hova's who come into the hospital...on the sneak they take blood transfusions.  
Some have enough common sense to do the thing that will save their lives.  
I guess they have faith in G-d - that he will understand.
Not that I can understand those people at all...the Je hova's that is  ;)

JW is an evil, vicious cult. Throw in "Christian Science" too. They actually reject modern science. They won't even let their kids have painkillers at the dentist office. Now that's abuse!

Offline nessuno

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Re: Parents pick prayer over docs; girl dies
« Reply #12 on: March 28, 2008, 11:24:55 AM »
You have to be a fanatic - not one who has faith - to not do what is right to save the life of your own child.
We have Je hova's who come into the hospital...on the sneak they take blood transfusions.  
Some have enough common sense to do the thing that will save their lives.  
I guess they have faith in G-d - that he will understand.
Not that I can understand those people at all...the Je hova's that is  ;)

JW is an evil, vicious cult. Throw in "Christian Science" too. They actually reject modern science. They won't even let their kids have painkillers at the dentist office. Now that's abuse!
Right you are.
What do you think should happen to the parents - RubyStars?  :-\
Be very CAREFUL of people whose WORDS don't match their ACTIONS.

Offline JTFFan

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Re: Parents pick prayer over docs; girl dies
« Reply #13 on: March 28, 2008, 11:51:01 AM »
You have to be a fanatic - not one who has faith - to not do what is right to save the life of your own child.
We have Je hova's who come into the hospital...on the sneak they take blood transfusions.  
Some have enough common sense to do the thing that will save their lives.  
I guess they have faith in G-d - that he will understand.
Not that I can understand those people at all...the Je hova's that is  ;)

JW is an evil, vicious cult. Throw in "Christian Science" too. They actually reject modern science. They won't even let their kids have painkillers at the dentist office. Now that's abuse!

That is total abuse!

Offline Rubystars

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Re: Parents pick prayer over docs; girl dies
« Reply #14 on: March 28, 2008, 12:24:37 PM »
Right you are.
What do you think should happen to the parents - RubyStars?  :-\

It's a tricky question. How do we stop horrible things like this from happening, and the abuse of parents not letting their kids have things like painkillers, etc. and still respect freedom of religion?


Offline דוד בן זאב אריה

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Re: Parents pick prayer over docs; girl dies
« Reply #15 on: March 28, 2008, 12:55:54 PM »
saw this on the news. There are still 6 states where this is not against the law. They call it faith healing Radical Christian do this
David Ben Ze'ev Aryeh


newman

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Re: Parents pick prayer over docs; girl dies
« Reply #16 on: March 28, 2008, 01:00:33 PM »
Right you are.
What do you think should happen to the parents - RubyStars?  :-\

It's a tricky question. How do we stop horrible things like this from happening, and the abuse of parents not letting their kids have things like painkillers, etc. and still respect freedom of religion?


We fixed the problem down here.

The law basically says that people are custodians of their children, not their owners. If a child needs a blood tranfusion (for example) to save it's life, the doctors have full legal authority to override the parents' crackpot religious beliefs and perform the transfusion.

When the kid turns 18, they can deny all the procedures they like, but until then, doctors have the say (in emergencies) over the parents.

Offline nessuno

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Re: Parents pick prayer over docs; girl dies
« Reply #17 on: March 28, 2008, 01:04:52 PM »
Right you are.
What do you think should happen to the parents - RubyStars?  :-\

It's a tricky question. How do we stop horrible things like this from happening, and the abuse of parents not letting their kids have things like painkillers, etc. and still respect freedom of religion?


I agree.

I wonder why the relatives, who knew, waited so long to call for help.
One family member finally called authorities - when she heard the little girl was in a coma - but obviously that was too late.
I'm trying not to judge them because hind site is always 20/20.

Freedom of religion - they killed their child by abuse.  Lack of care is abuse.
I think they will pay every day they are alive - no matter what the law does to them.  How could you loose  a child by not having tried every possible means to save her - and live with that.

Not everyone should have children.  Funny how so many of that type of people are blessed with them.  :'(

Be very CAREFUL of people whose WORDS don't match their ACTIONS.

Offline nessuno

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Re: Parents pick prayer over docs; girl dies
« Reply #18 on: March 28, 2008, 01:08:38 PM »
Right you are.
What do you think should happen to the parents - RubyStars?  :-\

It's a tricky question. How do we stop horrible things like this from happening, and the abuse of parents not letting their kids have things like painkillers, etc. and still respect freedom of religion?


We fixed the problem down here.

The law basically says that people are custodians of their children, not their owners. If a child needs a blood tranfusion (for example) to save it's life, the doctors have full legal authority to override the parents' crackpot religious beliefs and perform the transfusion.

When the kid turns 18, they can deny all the procedures they like, but until then, doctors have the say (in emergencies) over the parents.
Just one of the reasons we like you Australian people so much.  O0

The problem here was probably getting the child away from the wacko parents and to the hospital.
Be very CAREFUL of people whose WORDS don't match their ACTIONS.

Offline Rubystars

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Re: Parents pick prayer over docs; girl dies
« Reply #19 on: March 28, 2008, 01:23:19 PM »
We fixed the problem down here.

The law basically says that people are custodians of their children, not their owners. If a child needs a blood tranfusion (for example) to save it's life, the doctors have full legal authority to override the parents' crackpot religious beliefs and perform the transfusion.

When the kid turns 18, they can deny all the procedures they like, but until then, doctors have the say (in emergencies) over the parents.

I like that idea, plus I'd make sure that dentists had the right to give kids medicine too. The only problem with that is that you'd have a lot of kids with rotten teeth because of it.

To answer Bullcat's question, I'm really not sure what should happen to the parents. A mental evaluation seems like a good first step.