Herzl and the Zionists (Yimach Shemo)

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

The video includes Jabotinsky (the so-called "great Jewish leader")

[kahaneloyalist]

you need to take everything from Shofar with a ton of salt, they have an agenda, and they are willing to use selective quotes for their goal. This pains me to say as many people have been returned to Judaism by Rav Amnon Yitzchak.

Yes, Herzl said those things, but he changed his mind, what do you think a baal teshuva is? A person who does evil and changes his mind. That is what happened with Herzl and Jabotinsky for that matter.

[kahaneloyalist]

yes it was, but as a mass movement it was Herzl who got things rolling, and the concept of Jews fighting was to a great extent revived by Jabotinsky

[habiru]

Jabotinsky the so called Jewish leader eh?

And I'm sure you think the Satmar Rebbe for instance was an authentic Jewish leader, right?

So lets see, Jabo predicted the Holocaust and told the Jews to leave while the Satmar Rebbe (among many other "authentic" jewish leaders) expressly forbid their followers from leaving and asured them that nothing would happen.

Judge for yourself.

[MarZutra]

I'd like to interject if I may.  From what I have read on Jabbotinsky he was a Jewish Nationalist, not a Religious Zionist like Rav. Kahane, nor a "Zionist" = Labor Zionist= Jewish Socialist like Weismann, Gurion, Sharret, Meir.  Jabbotinsky had a stronger and more Nationalistic interpretation of what Herzel's beliefs had been but followed on a very similar platform only a virulant anti-Socialist/Communist in nature. 

Rav. Kahane had much in common with Jabbotinsky with his Nationalistic convictions but Zev lacked the knowledge that Kahane possessed within Orthodox Judaism: Religious Zionism.   I believe Rav. Kahane's father was a very strong supporter of Zev's.  A staunch supporter of David Raziel, later Begin and Shamir but could be wrong here....  These are my two cents worth...  Hertzel was good but not at the Jewish Nationalistic summit of Kahane or Jabbotinsky but the founder of the modern secular Zionist movement .... as history has awarded him...

PS: I was trying to post the cover to "Lone Wolf" - Shmuel Katz but for some reason I cannot up load pictures...

[habiru]

Say what you want about Jabotinksy. Yes he wasn't religious, yes he probably was an atheist, yes he told his family to cremate his remains but he still is one of the greatest Jewish visionaries of the 20th century if only because he was the only one who had it right. He was the ONLY ONE (!) of all the worthless Jewish "leaders" of his time, who warned the poor blind and deaf Jews of eastern europe to get the heck out of their accursed countries asap because a "storm was fast approaching".

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

Jabotinsky the so called Jewish leader eh?

And I'm sure you think the Satmar Rebbe for instance was an authentic Jewish leader, right?

So lets see, Jabo predicted the Holocaust and told the Jews to leave while the Satmar Rebbe (among many other "authentic" jewish leaders) expressly forbid their followers from leaving and asured them that nothing would happen.

Judge for yourself.

 one big problem with following the zionists was the spiritual dangers they created in Israel, yes the BEST thing would be if Jews returned to the Land, with the Rabbis leading the way, But since it allready happened that the zionists took over, theirs only 1 thing left to do- overthrow them, G-d willing.
  anyway labeling all the Haredim as one group or only being Satmer, or being these weak Jews, who dont fight back, etc, if pure anti-semitism and bullsh*t. And it was Rav Kahane who said that he has more in common with Satmer then with the secular.
   Can we honestly blame the religious Jews in Europe who didnt want to come to Israel mainly because of the spiritual Holocaust the zionists were perpetuating against Jews?
  A good question- who do you concider worse A) those who kill you in this world or B) those who try to kill your world to come?

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

Herzl has nothing to do with real Zionism. Real Zionism existed before the Secular "Zionists" invented their movement. The First Aliyah in 1882 was by Religious Zionists. Even before that, Zionism was always a Torah concept.

It wasnt called zionism, it was the Lovers of Zion movement, and anyway their were Jews living in the Land, even before that.

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

you need to take everything from Shofar with a ton of salt, they have an agenda, and they are willing to use selective quotes for their goal.
Yes, Herzl said those things, but he changed his mind, what do you think a baal teshuva is? A person who does evil and changes his mind. That is what happened with Herzl and Jabotinsky for that matter.

whats the bad agenda?

what makes you say the secular zionists made Tishuva?

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

\what made this anti-semite soo great?

For G-d's sake you sound like Abe Foxman. Are you happy now?

  

[habiru]

Lets get the facts straight, Tzvi.


Who warned the Jews to leave Europe in the 30's and who urged them to stay?

Better yet which Zionist and or Jewish leader urged the Jews to leave Europe? (Note he didn't just say go to Israel, he foresaw that the Jews of Europe specifically were doomed).

Only one! Jabotinsky. So stop defaming this great man or I will recommend that the admins ban you.

I bet that if you were alive during Jabotinsky's time, you would have mocked him too.

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

I bet that if you were alive during Jabotinsky's time, you would have mocked him too.

You are right  , why should the administrators ban me? because you cant engage in intelligent conversation?
notice- you cant adress his negative comments against Jews.

[habiru]

I bet that if you were alive during Jabotinsky's time, you would have mocked him too.

You are right  , why should the administrators ban me? because you cant engage in intelligent conversation?
notice- you cant adress his negative comments against Jews.

Like he said, he made some mistakes. He may have said some things that he probably shouldn't have said but does that make him an anti-semite?  Jabo grew up in a very assimilated Russian home, you have to take that into consideration. But his love and concern for Jews is unquestioned. Why else did he spend his entire life defending Jews and trying to save them.

Do you realize how moronic you sound? You would have mocked Jabotinsky even as he urged the Jews of Europe in the 1930's to leave ?!

Lay off on that coolaid there.

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

 He may have said some things that he probably shouldn't have said but does that make him an anti-semite? [/quote]

Yes.

[habiru]

 He may have said some things that he probably shouldn't have said but does that make him an anti-semite?

Yes.
[/quote]

Satmar Rebbe called fellow Jews worse names. Are you gonna call him an anti-semite too? Of course not, he must be a saint to you even though he had no problems enlisting the help of the Zionists in Hungary to save his own skin during the Holocaust (and may I point out while leaving scores of his followers behind to perish).

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

 He may have said some things that he probably shouldn't have said but does that make him an anti-semite?

Yes.

Satmar Rebbe called fellow Jews worse names. Are you gonna call him an anti-semite too? Of course not, he must be a saint to you even though he had no problems enlisting the help of the Zionists in Hungary to save his own skin during the Holocaust (and may I point out while leaving scores of his followers behind to perish).
[/quote]

I dont know enough about the Satmer Rebbe, to make judgement.

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

dude im not Satmer, nor do I agree with them or like them. Why is it that when the secular zionists are mentioned, people have to defend them by saying that the Satmer are this and that, its 2 diff. issues.

[habiru]

Who said anything about secular and religious? If anyhting it is you who has the double standard. Just  because Jabo was secular doesn't automatically make him a bad Jew. You, sir have a problem with Jabotinsky for some odd reason.

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

Who said anything about secular and religious? If anyhting it is you who has the double standard. Just  because Jabo was secular doesn't automatically make him a bad Jew. You, sir have a problem with Jabotinsky for some odd reason.

i guess you didnt watch the video and what jabo stated.

[habiru]

Yitzchak is a propagandist and a rabble rouser. The Haredim best keep their mouth shut when it comes to the Holocaust because their record is at least as dismal as that of the Zionists.

All Jabotinsky's previous sins are nothing when you take into account the facts of what happened.

[kahaneloyalist]

guys, we are all brothers here, lets remember that fighting for the sake of Torah is righteous but for the sake of our own egos is evil. No I am not saying anyone is doing the latter. but we can disagree without personal insults.

Tzvi, yes Jabotinsky and Herzl said some pretty rotten things, but both had made signifigant changes in their worldview by the time they had died. Remember Rebbe Akiva was a Am Haaretz till he was 40 years old.

Habiru, Rav Yitzhak wishes to bring Jews to Torah he believes he can do this by attacking the early Zionists and the Holocaust, I believe that in this regard he is misguided but he is still a righteous individual, and even if we disagree with the Charedim they are still Jews and their opinion has value. Remember Rav Kook zt'l an Rav Aryeh Levin zt'l were without question Charedim

[MarZutra]

Sorry to interject again. One must remember that Zev Jabbotinsky did travel through Europe trying to get people out during the days prior to and during his foundation of Batar.  He was VERY anti-Socialist/Communist which Begin and Shamir both note in their memoirs which was the reason why he and Weismann had such heated debates.  Weismann, left the call to get Jews out of Europe to invent military weaponry for the allies.....and thus making comments about leaving the Jews to be "the dust of history". ("the Transfer Agreement", "While 6 Million Died") Jabbotinsky stayed and tried to rally some Jewish Nationalism, not secular Zionism of Weismann.  Jabbotinsky, from what I am given to understand, had much against him since many of the Jews of Eastern Europe turned to Socialism/Communism: Bund due to years of Czarist pogroms.  That said Jabbotinsky had the Socialist Judenrot undermining him on one hand and the Hassidim undermining him as a crack pot on the other because he was not religous and not Hassidim....("Years of Wrath Days of Glory")

An interesting fact to note is that in the late 1870's-early 1880's prior to Hertzel, Jabbotinsky, Weismann etc. there was an Orthodox Rabbi from Lithewania, I believe but not 100% sure, that preached "Religious Zionism" on similar scales of Rav. Kahane.  His name was Rav. Samuel Mohilever.  The Head Rabbi of France introduced this different type of Rabbi to Baron deRothschild, an Orthodox Jew, in September '82 to drum up support and financing of Jewish settlement in "Palestine" for the suffering Jews of Eastern Europe.   ("The Rothschilds"-Frederic Morton)  This was, from what I have read, the start of modern religious Zionism which had only a few years later been highjacked and crushed but the wave of Labor "Zionism": Socialism Alyiah to Zion to set up a Jewish Socialistic "Utopia": The modern Bolshevik state of Israel today...  (From what I have read......)

PS: One can note very precisely that ever since the 13th century there has been a steady stream of Jews returning to Zion which is perhaps the reason why Mark Twain noted in his 1860's "The Innocents Abroad" of not seeing any "Palestinians", a very few Mohammedans West of the River Jordan but many religious Jews.

[habiru]

Thank you KahaneLoyalist for bringing some peace to this thread.

I only wish to add that if Vladimir Ze'ev Jabotinsky Z'l were alive today, I can guarantee you that he would most certaintly join Chaim and the Kahanists.

That says it all. And may I add that many of Jabo's closest followers and decsiples did join Rabbi Kahane after Jabo died. Rabbi Kahane was a completed Jabotinsky . You may not know this, but even Rabbi Kahane severely criticizes Jabotinsky (albeit rarely) in several of his books (I believe one passage is in "They must go" and the other is in "Uncomfortable Question". At the same time he had the utmost respect and admiration for him despite his shortcomings which were neglible compared to all the great things he's done.

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

good question- would you support some 1 who says hes against arabs , and even calls for bombing arabs while wants to and has waged a cultural war against Judaism? or at least says hes anti-Haredi?