Your thoughts on Nazi surplus firearms with the swastika & people who own them?

[White Israelite]

So I feel this may be a controversial topic for some people. I would like to know what Jewish and Gentile views on people owning Nazi surplus weapons are?

at gun shows, there are many replica KAR98's floating around, sometimes with swastika intact. I think that replicas are rather stupid and have no value, however there are some authentic pieces of Nazi surplus weapons like hitler youth daggers, lugers, p-38, kar98, MP44, and other rare weapons with matching serials and the swastika is part of what makes these weapons so high valued.  These type of items may attract a variety of people from world war II buffs, collectors, regular shooters, or perhaps even a number of neo nazis.

I've asked a few Jewish gun owners their view on it, one in particular felt very offended by the topic and stated "no Jew in his right mind would EVER own a Nazi weapon!"

while I may take a bit more conservative view on the topic of firearms with swastika intact, I view them purely from a historical viewpoint, I view a weapon as a inanimate object that has no loyalty but the person behind the firearm. This is my personal aspect and I feel the swastika being a symbol has no relevance to how the weapon operates or the people that used that symbol for their political motives. I feel that the only person who profits from the purchase of these weapons are the dealers or the shops who sell them, we have to remember many of these weapons were confiscated during the war and kept in US armory for years packed in cosmoline and finally sold back to the public.

To put a bit more understanding behind the selection of the poll, here are the options.

Option 1: It's just a peice of history, who cares?

You selection this, it means you have no objection to people owning a firearm of Nazi origin with swastika intact. You feel weapons have no loyalty and that a person should be able to own the firearm in it's original status without modification.

Option 2: Owning Nazi firearms are fine, but the swastika on the weapons is not and should be removed

If you vote for option 2, you support the idea of owning Nazi surplus weapons but not with the swastika intact, basically a politically correct version of the firearm. The Israelis imported Czech KAR98's and grounded off the swastika and stamped a star of david over where the swastika originally was.

Option 3: Dude are you freakin insane?! Nobody should own a weapon made by the Nazis swastika or not!

You are completely against the idea of owning any weapon made in Germany during the Nazi era, you feel it is symbolic to what the Nazis did to the Jews and the weapons used against Jews and should be completely destroyed along with Nazi history as if it never existed. Some feel very emotional over the idea these weapons were used to kill Jews and allies and feel it is better if the weapons did not exist.

Option 4: Jews shouldn't own any weapons with swastikas on them, but it's ok if others do

You feel that it is acceptable that Nazi surplus weapons are floating around and don't care if others purchase them but feel that Jews should not own them because of the swastika or who was behind them

Option 5: Other

State your reason



I have a similar approach with commie weapons, the communists killed millions of people yet we are not removing the sickle and star from weapons, we simply purchase the weapons and use them.

There are people that refuse to use foreign weapons and will only use American weapons. If the SHTF tomorrow, I am curious if that would be a wise move skipping on using a enemies weapon because of patriotic pride? Use what you can to survive, that's my view on it.

[Americanhero1]

i collect antique things i have An America Bayonet from 1918 and a paratrooper knife from WW2 i also have a High ranking Soviet officers Navel Dagger and an American Trench knife from 1918 as well

[White Israelite]

i collect antique things i have An America Bayonet from 1918 and a paratrooper knife from WW2 i also have a High ranking Soviet officers Navel Dagger and an American Trench knife from 1918 as well

I don't own any Nazi marked weapons myself, but I have shot a friends Mauser KAR98 and it had a US armory stamp on the barrel. It also had the eagle with the swastika intact and it was in really good condition. It was used in Stalingrad, there was a bunch of scratches near the stock, looked like the soldier who was carrying it ended up getting shot and landed on the stock or something in some rubble.

It was 8mm, very accurate rifle, smooth action and well built.

I had this discussion with a Jewish friend of mine about shooting the rifle and he felt very...emotional about the idea that I was shooting a weapon made in Nazi Germany and had said "How do you know that weapon wasn't used to kill fellow Jews in a concentration camp?" I responded saying "The 3rd reich is dead, this weapon may have once been used for evil, but now it is being used for good, who's hands do you prefer it in?" he didn't like the response, but I have the understanding that we have used many designs from the Nazis to advance and perfect our lifestyle. We used experimentation results from the Japanese and allowed their generals to escape without prosecution for medical advances, we used Wernher von Braun for use of rockets to compete with the Soviets, our helmets derive from the older German Nazi helmets, and the MG42 is still considered one of the best machine gun designs ever made. It may not seem morally right, but I guess this is not really a debate about survival and using what you can, rather Jewish and Gentile view of ownership of such weapons and how they are marked?

I like to collect weapons because I feel I am owning a piece of history, others may not feel the same and that is why I would like to hear their responses and why they feel that way.

[newman]

It's a silly issue to get worked up about.

Jews in Israel had over 1 million ex-nazi Mauser rifles WITH nazi proof marks that they used to establish their state and defend themselves from both British AND arab nazis. If ever there was proof that a weapon has no malevelence or morallity in and of itself , this is it.

They did deface the nazi markings later, but this was symbolic. It was to 'ideologically purify' the rifles. Given that hitler's ovens were barely cold at the time, I can understand it.

A nazi proof-marked, soviet stamped or British Empire stamped rifle has no ideology. Any weapon is only as good or bad as it's user.

I have no poblem with righteous Americans using former nazi or communist weapons to defend their liberty.
 

[White Israelite]

It's a silly issue to get worked up about.

Jews in Israel had over 1 million ex-nazi Mauser rifles WITH nazi proof marks that they used to establish their state and defend themselves from both British AND arab nazis. If ever there was proof that a weapon has no malevelence or morallity in and of itself , this is it.

They did deface the nazi markings later, but this was symbolic. It was to 'ideologically purify' the rifles. Given that hitler's ovens were barely cold at the time, I can understand it.

A nazi proof-marked, soviet stamped or British Empire stamped rifle has no ideology. Any weapon is only as good or bad as it's user.

I have no poblem with righteous Americans using former nazi or communist weapons to defend their liberty.
 

I agree, just wondering what others stances are on this. Use what works.

[old06]

Many years ago I did a lot I mean a lot of fire arm buying trading and swapping this went on for better than 15 years I would say about 300 or so guns past through my hands and I had 2 98's wit the whole 9 yards on them (I got them from 2 separate deals about 5 years apart) I could care less what they had on them I kept one for about a year and shot several hundred 8 X 57 rounds through it and sold it top a guy at a range I was at for a good profit and the other went in on a trade I would not go out of my way to get one but would not pass on one for that reason

[White Israelite]

Many years ago I did a lot I mean a lot of fire arm buying trading and swapping this went on for better than 15 years I would say about 300 or so guns past through my hands and I had 2 98's wit the whole 9 yards on them (I got them from 2 separate deals about 5 years apart) I could care less what they had on them I kept one for about a year and shot several hundred 8 X 57 rounds through it and sold it top a guy at a range I was at for a good profit and the other went in on a trade I would not go out of my way to get one but would not pass on one for that reason

Pretty much how I feel about the issue as well, i'm not going to go out of my way to have firearms or knives with a swastika on it, but i'm not exactly going to start having convulsions and panicking because I see a swastika on a weapon. I'm definitely not going to buy replica garbage either, I seen a lot of neo nazi skinhead punks that think it's cool to buy a cheap 5 dollar knife because it has a swastika on it. Heck, think of the pro's, if I buy authentic weapons with a swastika on it, less for the Nazis to buy. Rather I own it than some neo nazi punk

[newman]

If you find genuine nazi-era collectables at a steal price, buy them. If you can get two 98s for $180 ea and two nazi bayonets for $45 ea and then SELL them to nazi-worshipping idiots and double your money.......more's the better! Take your $450 profit and buy a Serb SKS and 1,000 rounds of ammo that'll cost you NOTHING.

[White Israelite]

If you find genuine nazi-era collectables at a steal price, buy them. If you can get two 98s for $180 ea and two nazi bayonets for $45 ea and then SELL them to nazi-worshipping idiots and double your money.......more's the better! Take your $450 profit and buy a Serb SKS and 1,000 rounds of ammo that'll cost you NOTHING.

Serbian SKS? Is that the same as the Yugoslavian SKS? I thought they weren't chromelined?

[newman]

If you find genuine nazi-era collectables at a steal price, buy them. If you can get two 98s for $180 ea and two nazi bayonets for $45 ea and then SELL them to nazi-worshipping idiots and double your money.......more's the better! Take your $450 profit and buy a Serb SKS and 1,000 rounds of ammo that'll cost you NOTHING.

Serbian SKS? Is that the same as the Yugoslavian SKS? I thought they weren't chromelined?

They are the same. They're not chrome lined, but they gobble up new steel case Russian ammo that's not corrosive.

Secondly, the crome lined examples havn't been imported for a while and most are pinned barrel models.

Yugo 59/66s are threaded barrel models and the best built. They are available NOW unissued.

As for barrel life...............a new Yugo SKS has a 10,000+ round life. A chrome lined SKS will have 20,000 rounds barrel life MINUS the 10,000 rounds the last dude has alread put through it. So it's the same thing, really.

Remember to that the Yugo 59/66s have C&R status with the BATF, Chinese Norincos don't.

[ThunderAppeal]

Jewish people used former nazi weapons to retake Israel, fair enough.

Personally I dont see a reason why a Jewish person should own a gun that closely associated with
nazis.

Yes the world has seen the use of technology from the nazis, for example the Germans make excellent
cars.  Main reason for that is because they have very good information on human physiology, insight they gained at the expense of Jewish souls.
That is the main reason why I wont buy a German automobile, unless it comes with 2 dead nazis in the trunk.

In my opinion, anything from the nazi regime is a relic and I would leave it that way.

I hold by this same reasoning as I do for a Jewish person from russia who still eats pork.

We had to do it strictly for survival!!  Unfortunately some forget to teach their children that pork IS strictly forbidden otherwise.  No ifs ands or buts.

The Jewish people who retook Israel needed weapons and guns so they took whatever was at hand.
I see no need to indulge in nazi relics, I would much rather appreciate the benefits the free world has allowed me to savor.

So your question might really be, at what point do we get to 'enjoy' the technological benefits gained from the 3rd rach.  Well I would say it is much like certain fruits and vegentables or animal by products that would be considered traif.  Vitamins for example may have traces of bug or something, but it has been processed and refined by that point that any elements of traif are moot.

So for me the time is not right.  But anything with a swastika the time will never be right.

[newman]

It comes down to buying the best tool at the best price. Germany hasn't made a cent out of WW2-issue Mauser rifles since 1940. Any profits on the resale of surplus rifles today goes to the American dealer who sells it. Given that the Kar98k Mauser is still the best turn-bolt rifle in the world and is perfectly suited to militia/homeland security/ community defense/ survival, if one can be obtained for a good price righteous people should buy one. Ascribing morals, character or good/evil to an inanimate piece of steel & wood is the sort of illogical, insane activity liberals enguage in.

[ThunderAppeal]

It comes down to buying the best tool at the best price. Germany hasn't made a cent out of WW2-issue Mauser rifles since 1940. Any profits on the resale of surplus rifles today goes to the American dealer who sells it. Given that the Kar98k Mauser is still the best turn-bolt rifle in the world and is perfectly suited to militia/homeland security/ community defense/ survival, if one can be obtained for a good price righteous people should buy one. Ascribing morals, character or good/evil to an inanimate piece of steel & wood is the sort of illogical, insane activity liberals enguage in.

I suppose, but to restate what I said earlier.

If it came down to it and someone handed me a WW2-issue Mauser and said 'thats all we have' then I would use that just the same.

Again, just my opinion. 

[newman]

It comes down to buying the best tool at the best price. Germany hasn't made a cent out of WW2-issue Mauser rifles since 1940. Any profits on the resale of surplus rifles today goes to the American dealer who sells it. Given that the Kar98k Mauser is still the best turn-bolt rifle in the world and is perfectly suited to militia/homeland security/ community defense/ survival, if one can be obtained for a good price righteous people should buy one. Ascribing morals, character or good/evil to an inanimate piece of steel & wood is the sort of illogical, insane activity liberals enguage in.

I suppose, but to restate what I said earlier.

If it came down to it and someone handed me a WW2-issue Mauser and said 'thats all we have' then I would use that just the same.

Again, just my opinion. 

Russian/Soviet Mosin Nagant rifles were used by both Tzarists AND Communists to terrify and pogromise Jews.

British .303 SMLE rifles kept Jews out of Israel, shot Irgun & Hagganah members and were used by Jordan's arab legion to attack Jews.

Most popular sporting arms have been used by the KKK in anti-semitic attacks at one time or another.

If you attatch the behaviour & character of the users to the rifle, there wouldn't be a shotgun or rifle a Jew could own.

[ThunderAppeal]

It comes down to buying the best tool at the best price. Germany hasn't made a cent out of WW2-issue Mauser rifles since 1940. Any profits on the resale of surplus rifles today goes to the American dealer who sells it. Given that the Kar98k Mauser is still the best turn-bolt rifle in the world and is perfectly suited to militia/homeland security/ community defense/ survival, if one can be obtained for a good price righteous people should buy one. Ascribing morals, character or good/evil to an inanimate piece of steel & wood is the sort of illogical, insane activity liberals enguage in.

I suppose, but to restate what I said earlier.

If it came down to it and someone handed me a WW2-issue Mauser and said 'thats all we have' then I would use that just the same.

Again, just my opinion. 

Russian/Soviet Mosin Nagant rifles were used by both Tzarists AND Communists to terrify and pogromise Jews.

British .303 SMLE rifles kept Jews out of Israel, shot Irgun & Hagganah members and were used by Jordan's arab legion to attack Jews.

Most popular sporting arms have been used by the KKK in anti-semitic attacks at one time or another.

If you attatch the behaviour & character of the users to the rifle, there wouldn't be a shotgun or rifle a Jew could own.

The difference to me is that German WW2 issue arms was from a dictatorship where annihilation Jewish people was a government policy.  The swastika is a symbol of death.

You can call me crazy and you wouldnt be completely wrong.

Again, just my opinion.

[newman]

The swastika is infact a pre-rhunic Indian symbol of eternal life! It was hijacked & misused by the nazis just as the KKK and Spanish church did with the cross.

A nazi symbol placed on a rifle (that is now wielded by a righteous man in a noble cause) 70 years ago is irrelevant.

[ThunderAppeal]

The swastika is infact a pre-rhunic Indian symbol of eternal life! It was hijacked & misused by the nazis just as the KKK and Spanish church did with the cross.

A nazi symbol placed on a rifle (that is now wielded by a righteous man in a noble cause) 70 years ago is irrelevant.

I am aware of the origins of the swastika and the direction it should be spinning if it were a legitimate symbol of its origins.  But the reincarnation of the swastika was hijacked by a cultist who took the meaning of mass slaughter to a whole new level.

Like I said earlier, if someone handed me a German WW2 weapon and said this is all that is available to defend yourself and fight for your cause I would use it just the same as if someone handed me an M16 or an AK47.

Do you want me to change my opinion if other Jewish people should own it?  I dont think they should, unless it comes with the severed hands of two nazi soldiers who used them.

My opinion.

[ThunderAppeal]

I do want to relay something else.

I've driven a Porsche 911, 928 and 914 and I've driven big rear wheel drive GM's.

I own a 1994 Chevy Caprice and I'll tell you this, put a set of gas Bilstein shocks, heavy duty springs and fat Firestone Indys and it handles remarkably well for a nearly 2 ton automobile.

Will it compete out right with a Porsche on the track? Maybe.  I've seen the results of SCCA Solo races with a Porsche Boxster and a 1996 Chevy Impala and the Impala won!  Why?  Because once a car is set up it much of the deciding factor amounts to drivers skill.

I drove a 928 cross country and it certainly felt better, I was doing 120 in Arizona and it felt like 65. 
In the Caprice 90 feels like 90, I could do 120 but its not an assuring 120.
The Caprice can be setup to do 120, in Police form they could do 140.

So I have a choice, my choice is an American rear wheel drive 4 door sedan.

Admitidly I dont have enough experience with guns to know the difference in feel so I translating my experience from another topic.

[ThunderAppeal]

The swastika is infact a pre-rhunic Indian symbol of eternal life! It was hijacked & misused by the nazis just as the KKK and Spanish church did with the cross.

A nazi symbol placed on a rifle (that is now wielded by a righteous man in a noble cause) 70 years ago is irrelevant.

Should my opinion stop someone from deciding what to own?  Why should it?

[White Israelite]

The swastika is infact a pre-rhunic Indian symbol of eternal life! It was hijacked & misused by the nazis just as the KKK and Spanish church did with the cross.

A nazi symbol placed on a rifle (that is now wielded by a righteous man in a noble cause) 70 years ago is irrelevant.

Should my opinion stop someone from deciding what to own?  Why should it?

I think what Newmans trying to say is that there have been many atrocities committed against Jews with various different weapons from different countries but yet we don't look at the British flag (remember what they did to Jews in the mandate before Israel was created as a state), the Soviet flag, or even the American flag like we do the swastika. In many countries of Europe (Germany, France for example), the swastika is banned, it hasn't changed anything, banning a symbol or a flag doesn't stop people from being evil.

I view the swastika as simply a symbol, i'm not worried about what type of relic or symbol is on my gun, but rather the people behind it. I don't think there would be much difference in the lethality of the weapon regardless if it had a swastika or not.

Also many American companies supported what happened to the millions of people murdered in Germany as well, IBM for example sold the machines for keeping track of the prisoners, FORD was a well known anti-semite, many others as well.

Owning a Nazi surplus weapon isn't going to put any money in Germanys pockets. Not anymore at least.

[Wayne Jude]

Just a weopon but then again if I were offered mohams sword i would melt it down for ammo and fire it from my m16a2 at muzzies.

[ThunderAppeal]

The swastika is infact a pre-rhunic Indian symbol of eternal life! It was hijacked & misused by the nazis just as the KKK and Spanish church did with the cross.

A nazi symbol placed on a rifle (that is now wielded by a righteous man in a noble cause) 70 years ago is irrelevant.

Should my opinion stop someone from deciding what to own?  Why should it?

I think what Newmans trying to say is that there have been many atrocities committed against Jews with various different weapons from different countries but yet we don't look at the British flag (remember what they did to Jews in the mandate before Israel was created as a state), the Soviet flag, or even the American flag like we do the swastika. In many countries of Europe (Germany, France for example), the swastika is banned, it hasn't changed anything, banning a symbol or a flag doesn't stop people from being evil.

I view the swastika as simply a symbol, i'm not worried about what type of relic or symbol is on my gun, but rather the people behind it. I don't think there would be much difference in the lethality of the weapon regardless if it had a swastika or not.

Also many American companies supported what happened to the millions of people murdered in Germany as well, IBM for example sold the machines for keeping track of the prisoners, FORD was a well known anti-semite, many others as well.

Owning a Nazi surplus weapon isn't going to put any money in Germanys pockets. Not anymore at least.

I understand what you are saying, and am aware of the players and their deeds or lack thereof for the most part.

I had this conversation with my friend who is a Bal Teshuva, he is also very familiar with weapons.
So I posed this question to him and he said he would take a Mauser in a minute, I told him it would be
a rifle and he said what kind because yes he would.  His reason is along the same lines as you guys pointed
out here.  My friend said that my relatives who killed nazis during WW2 would have taken whatever they
had to to dispatch the ameleks.  I whole heartedly agreed with him and said that I would have done the exact same thing.  Which is exactly what I have been saying the whole time, if it came down to it and the only
thing available yes I would use one of those weapons.

However, having a weapon or anything with a swastika emblazed on it or anything Germany
of that era is not something I would chose to own.  For the same reason I do not own a copy of that
surpeme nazi-facsist's biography.  It stems from a cult, a twisted interpretation
of so many things the source of that era in that country was from a person with a diseased mind.
The items created are tainted, if someone else wants to own them then why not, just like the pyramids still stand.

Was IBM, various banks and nations corraborators to a recognizable extent?  Yes.
So what sets them apart?  Again, it was a national government policy to exterminate Jewish people,
it was from a government that was intent on world domination based on subjugation to a twisted
notion of nationalism.  It was an ideology that disposed of national sovereignty and replaced it with xenophobia.  No one from my family would expect me to bring anything bearing those markings
nor anything from that era no matter how well engineered it may be.  My grandfather would own something from America, russia or china before he wuold buy anything German and that is just fine with me.
It is a relic of the past and I understand very well the origin and the reasons why I shouldnt be averse to
owning such a relic.  However, to me these arguments fall in to the same category in why smokers smoke and why they feel its ok.  Ok, just because they smoke doesnt mean I want to, nor does it mean I want to smell it.  Yes this is different because this does not permeate into the clothing of the people around you thereby leaving the person on the receiving end an unappealing scent.
But if I were to go with that argument, if I were to show up at a firing range with such a weapon how long before white nationalists take notice?  How long before I am put into a situation having to explain to a white nationalist why I own such a weapon?  Why would I want to engage in conversation with a white nationalist?
But from a spiritual aspect as a Jewish person am I allowed to have something in my house that displays my belief in a different religion?  I am pretty sure I do not.

So I understand full well why you guys would chose to own, however I am being accused of giving an inatimite object a personality.  My experience with inatimite objects is that it sometimes comes down to feel, like driving a Porsche and driving a Chevrolet Caprice can sometimes come down to feel.  The performance is sometimes nothing more than illusion once the suspensions are set up comparably.

[ThunderAppeal]

I do want to point out that the swastika, much like the hammer and sickle do not make me feel a sense of helpless agitation.  The agitation is an irritant like a cocaroach that must be crushed.

[Еврей]

As others have said Jews used ex-Nazi rifles to win the war of Independence.

It's not the weapon their using, but the cause they're fighting for I care about! 

[ThunderAppeal]

As others have said Jews used ex-Nazi rifles to win the war of Independence.

It's not the weapon their using, but the cause they're fighting for I care about! 

If this post is aimed at me then I would ask you to reread all of my posts in this thread.
You are saying what I have been saying minus the reason why I would not chose to own a weapon
of that era.

I'm starting to wonder if I am being mocked.