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What Do You Think Of Pre-Marital Intimacy And/Or Touching?
Tzvi Ben Roshel1:
--- Quote from: Dr. Dan on June 19, 2008, 01:46:20 PM ---
--- Quote from: Tzvi Ben Roshel on June 18, 2008, 07:03:03 PM ---
--- Quote from: shimon on June 05, 2008, 09:15:25 PM ---And can anyone tell me one place in the Torah where it says Shomer Negiah.
--- End quote ---
YES. It says in the Torah that the Jewish people, MUST follow the rulings and "fences" of the Rabbis. IT is a Mitzva from the Torah to follow an edict made by our Rabbis and we have to follow them. It might not say soo in Tannach of not touching, but thats why we have the Oral Law to discuss everything, and even if it was not stamm forbidden (or publicized) their have been statements made expecialy recently because now is the time expecially when this is taking place. In the past girls were modest and for her to touch other men (before marriage) would make them realise that they are loosing value in themselves. In the times of the Talmud, a girl even covered all up (almost like arabs) if she had bells on her shoes in order to draw attention from men, she was concidered a "zona" - aka prostitute.
Bottom line is that all Rabbis forbid men and women touching, kissing or anything else outside of marriage. And even during marriage their are times that it is forbidden (ex- Nidda).
--- End quote ---
Where does it say in the Torah that the Jewish people, MUST follow the rulings of "fences" of the Rabbis when Rabbis never existed in those days?
--- End quote ---
It says "you should follow them", it would be hard for me to bring you the exact quote, but ask a Rabbi, or ask around maybe someone has the reference for you. But stop always using the word "fences", many of these things always existed, but were written down much later, for different reasons.
q_q_:
the term fence law is appropriate. There are lots.
there are also rabbinical mitzvot, but only 7 of them. (purim and chanukah are 2, washing hands for bread is another) http://www.askmoses.com/article/411,429/What-are-the-seven-rabbinic-mitzvot.html
most rabbis would point to
pirkei avot 1:1
1. Moses received the Torah from Sinai and transmitted it to Joshua; Joshua to the elders; the elders to the prophets; and the prophets handed it down to the men of the Great Assembly. They said three things: Be deliberate in judgment, raise up many disciples, and make a fence around the Torah.
But you could then ask.. Where is fence really defined.. To be laws.. we have to obey. Where are they given permission to make such laws..
I am not sure..
There is of course the Sanhedrin,
and there is the authority of the beis din - jewish court.
The tenach says follow the judges that exist in your time. The talmud says it refers to the sanhedrin, and this is prob clear from the pshat too.. Rabbi binyamin kahane mentioned it.. that it refers to the sanhedrin. (other rabbis have at times pointed to this and looked at it as follow the sages, or follow the bet din or follow your local rabbi. But I don't think these interpretations have any evidence in tenach or gemara). The verse is
Deut 17:11 "Act according to the law they teach you and the decisions they give you. Do not turn aside from what they tell you, to the right or to the left."
Fact is though, even those that maintain this refers to sanhedrin..
Will agree to the authority of rabbis to create fence laws, or new mitzvot.
It must be in gemara..
The RAMBAM bases his decisions in his code very close to the gemara , and he I think talks about following the bet din, in hilchot mamri.. Everybody that accepts the tradition accepts rabbinical authority.. so no question it's there. Otherwise there would be dissent..
If it's not written in gemara, then I would that it is a living tradition, from around the time of hillel and shammai -and before. Our tradition came down to us (again, see mishna avot / pirkei avot , 1:1 ) , down the generations, from G-d to joshua to elders to prophets to MOGA, to 5 pairs of rabbis ending with hillel and shammai. At each generation being taught to the people. And they lived it.
There are of course examples in gemara, which makes it clear enough that the gemara teaches it.
You could look at that as a practical explanation and implementation of pirkei avot 1:1 , a living of that tradition.. lived for generations -before- hillel and shammai.. And I have mentioned how the generations go back to Moshe.
q_q_:
--- Quote from: Yacov Menashe Ben Rachamim on June 19, 2008, 06:08:13 PM ---What is MOGA?
--- End quote ---
an abbreviation I invented for "men of the great assembly". If you check pirkei avot 1:1 and the position I wrote MOGA then that's clear. I have actually memorised the order..
G-d to joshua to elders to prophets to MOGA to 5 pairs ending in hillel and shammai. Very good thing to memorise, and easy to memorise... Alot easier than pi to goodness knows how many dp. So that's another way one might have known (by memory), I don't need to check pirkei avot 1:1 to see the list. Every jew should memorise that little list IMO, it's fundamental
And also relevant as evidence for the truth of our tradition..
Why make the case tha our tradition is good because we passed it on for thousands of years.
We can say that Hillel and Shammai existed.. we all agree on that, we have the gemara where their disputes are recorded. So the tradition existed then.
And from there, we can work our way back the genreations, to the origin of our tradition at sinai.
Hillel and Shammai would have known the pair of rabbis they learnt it from, and so on.. And the jewish nation was taught too.
q_q_:
--- Quote from: Yacov Menashe Ben Rachamim on June 19, 2008, 08:49:15 PM ---
--- Quote from: q_q_ on June 19, 2008, 08:44:46 PM ---Alot easier than pi to goodness knows how many dp.
--- End quote ---
What's that?
--- End quote ---
kids in school memorise pi to many decimal places to show off..
3.14159265358979323.....
For years I thought I knew it far until somebody told me I had got it wrong.. for years I thought it was ....8979232 , when it was ...8979323 .
some kids had memorised it to 100dp..
in many schools.. it was a thing geeky/technical people did for fun.. during long school days.
Yet memorising a short list, like from G-d to joshua e.t.c. is easy by comparison.
Tzvi Ben Roshel1:
--- Quote from: q_q_ on June 19, 2008, 08:44:46 PM ---
--- Quote from: Yacov Menashe Ben Rachamim on June 19, 2008, 06:08:13 PM ---What is MOGA?
--- End quote ---
I have actually memorised the order..
G-d to joshua to elders to prophets to MOGA to 5 pairs ending in hillel and shammai. Very good thing to memorise, and easy to memorise...
--- End quote ---
Are you sure you memorised it well? Its Moshe recieved from G-d , and then to Yoshua .........
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