What Do You Think Of Pre-Marital Intimacy And/Or Touching?

[q_q_]

A bastard is a mamzer which means the mother became pregnant as a result of having sex with someone other than her husband.

An illegitimate baby is lo choki (illegal) and means the mother was single when the baby was born.

The father has nothing to do with a baby being a mamzer or not. He can cheat on his wife with another woman and the baby won't be a mamzer/bastard as long as the woman is single. Such a baby will only be illegitimate.

Also, this only applies to Jews. A married Gentile woman who has sex with another man and gets pregnant won't give birth to a mamzer, only an illegitimate baby.

does bastard=illegitimate  i.e. same thing ?
= born of parents not married to each other.

so mamzer is not the same as a bastard.
 
you are prob right with your definition of mamzer..
 That it is a married woman committing adultary. (so not a man comitting adultary with a single woman)

you said bastard is a mamzer..
But this is not really correct..
a bastard is a more general thing. It more than just a mamzer.
It is not true that a bastard is a mamzer, because you can have a bastard that is not a mamzer.
A mamzer is a bastard,  because a mamzer is a more specific thing. Though still potentially misleading to say a mamzer is a bastard.. 'cos they are not the same thing. Wrong to say as a rule that a bastard is a mamzer though.

my logic is probably correct, don't know about my definitions though!

[Americanhero1]

A bastard is a mamzer which means the mother became pregnant as a result of having sex with someone other than her husband.

An illegitimate baby is lo choki (illegal) and means the mother was single when the baby was born.

The father has nothing to do with a baby being a mamzer or not. He can cheat on his wife with another woman and the baby won't be a mamzer/bastard as long as the woman is single. Such a baby will only be illegitimate.

Also, this only applies to Jews. A married Gentile woman who has sex with another man and gets pregnant won't give birth to a mamzer, only an illegitimate baby.

does bastard=illegitimate  i.e. same thing ?
= born of parents not married to each other.

so mamzer is not the same as a bastard.
 
you are prob right with your definition of mamzer..
 That it is a married woman committing adultary. (so not a man comitting adultary with a single woman)

you said bastard is a mamzer..
But this is not really correct..
a bastard is a more general thing. It more than just a mamzer.
It is not true that a bastard is a mamzer, because you can have a bastard that is not a mamzer.
A mamzer is a bastard,  because a mamzer is a more specific thing. Though still potentially misleading to say a mamzer is a bastard.. 'cos they are not the same thing. Wrong to say as a rule that a bastard is a mamzer though.

my logic is probably correct, don't know about my definitions though!

I thought that as well if you are born and your parents are not married you would be considered a bastard

[q_q_]

There is no redefinition of bastard.

Bastard is an english or american term.

Mamzer is the jewish/hebrew term. And bastard is a mistranslation.

Sometimes a word requires more than one word to translate it. Because there is no equivalent word.

[Dr. Dan]

damn bastards! 

[q_q_]

damn bastards! 

Not all.   Only the mamzerim are damned ;-)

Though I wouldn't curse them..  And it's not their fault!

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

And can anyone tell me one place in the Torah where it says Shomer Negiah.

 YES. It says in the Torah that the Jewish people, MUST follow the rulings and "fences" of the Rabbis. IT is a Mitzva from the Torah to follow an edict made by our Rabbis and we have to follow them. It might not say soo in Tannach of not touching, but thats why we have the Oral Law to discuss everything, and even if it was not stamm forbidden (or publicized) their have been statements made expecialy recently because now is the time expecially when this is taking place. In the past girls were modest and for her to touch other men (before marriage) would make them realise that they are loosing value in themselves. In the times of the Talmud, a girl even covered all up (almost like arabs) if she had bells on her shoes in order to draw attention from men, she was concidered a "zona" - aka prostitute.
 Bottom line is that all Rabbis forbid men and women touching, kissing or anything else outside of marriage. And even during marriage their are times that it is forbidden (ex- Nidda).

[Dr. Dan]

And can anyone tell me one place in the Torah where it says Shomer Negiah.

 YES. It says in the Torah that the Jewish people, MUST follow the rulings and "fences" of the Rabbis. IT is a Mitzva from the Torah to follow an edict made by our Rabbis and we have to follow them. It might not say soo in Tannach of not touching, but thats why we have the Oral Law to discuss everything, and even if it was not stamm forbidden (or publicized) their have been statements made expecialy recently because now is the time expecially when this is taking place. In the past girls were modest and for her to touch other men (before marriage) would make them realise that they are loosing value in themselves. In the times of the Talmud, a girl even covered all up (almost like arabs) if she had bells on her shoes in order to draw attention from men, she was concidered a "zona" - aka prostitute.
 Bottom line is that all Rabbis forbid men and women touching, kissing or anything else outside of marriage. And even during marriage their are times that it is forbidden (ex- Nidda).

Where does it say in the Torah that the Jewish people, MUST follow the rulings of "fences" of the Rabbis when Rabbis never existed in those days?

[shimon]

And can anyone tell me one place in the Torah where it says Shomer Negiah.

 YES. It says in the Torah that the Jewish people, MUST follow the rulings and "fences" of the Rabbis. IT is a Mitzva from the Torah to follow an edict made by our Rabbis and we have to follow them. It might not say soo in Tannach of not touching, but thats why we have the Oral Law to discuss everything, and even if it was not stamm forbidden (or publicized) their have been statements made expecialy recently because now is the time expecially when this is taking place. In the past girls were modest and for her to touch other men (before marriage) would make them realise that they are loosing value in themselves. In the times of the Talmud, a girl even covered all up (almost like arabs) if she had bells on her shoes in order to draw attention from men, she was concidered a "zona" - aka prostitute.
 Bottom line is that all Rabbis forbid men and women touching, kissing or anything else outside of marriage. And even during marriage their are times that it is forbidden (ex- Nidda).

Not true my rabbi (who is orthodox) says you are aloud to touch girls as long as it does not make you aroused. For example a handshake( even if you intiate it)

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

And can anyone tell me one place in the Torah where it says Shomer Negiah.

 YES. It says in the Torah that the Jewish people, MUST follow the rulings and "fences" of the Rabbis. IT is a Mitzva from the Torah to follow an edict made by our Rabbis and we have to follow them. It might not say soo in Tannach of not touching, but thats why we have the Oral Law to discuss everything, and even if it was not stamm forbidden (or publicized) their have been statements made expecialy recently because now is the time expecially when this is taking place. In the past girls were modest and for her to touch other men (before marriage) would make them realise that they are loosing value in themselves. In the times of the Talmud, a girl even covered all up (almost like arabs) if she had bells on her shoes in order to draw attention from men, she was concidered a "zona" - aka prostitute.
 Bottom line is that all Rabbis forbid men and women touching, kissing or anything else outside of marriage. And even during marriage their are times that it is forbidden (ex- Nidda).

Not true my rabbi (who is orthodox) says you are aloud to touch girls as long as it does not make you aroused. For example a handshake( even if you intiate it)

 http://dailyhalacha.com/displayRead.asp?readID=1523&txtSearch=hand%20shaking
 
 - Ill bring much more later BH.

[q_q_]

And can anyone tell me one place in the Torah where it says Shomer Negiah.

 YES. It says in the Torah that the Jewish people, MUST follow the rulings and "fences" of the Rabbis. IT is a Mitzva from the Torah to follow an edict made by our Rabbis and we have to follow them. It might not say soo in Tannach of not touching, but thats why we have the Oral Law to discuss everything, and even if it was not stamm forbidden (or publicized) their have been statements made expecialy recently because now is the time expecially when this is taking place. In the past girls were modest and for her to touch other men (before marriage) would make them realise that they are loosing value in themselves. In the times of the Talmud, a girl even covered all up (almost like arabs) if she had bells on her shoes in order to draw attention from men, she was concidered a "zona" - aka prostitute.
 Bottom line is that all Rabbis forbid men and women touching, kissing or anything else outside of marriage. And even during marriage their are times that it is forbidden (ex- Nidda).

Not true my rabbi (who is orthodox) says you are aloud to touch girls as long as it does not make you aroused. For example a handshake( even if you intiate it)

how are you defining aroused? 

There can be a sensation upon skin contact with a female... even hand to hand. But I wouldn't go so far as to say that a quick accidental brush of skin would cause anything to float. 

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

And can anyone tell me one place in the Torah where it says Shomer Negiah.

 YES. It says in the Torah that the Jewish people, MUST follow the rulings and "fences" of the Rabbis. IT is a Mitzva from the Torah to follow an edict made by our Rabbis and we have to follow them. It might not say soo in Tannach of not touching, but thats why we have the Oral Law to discuss everything, and even if it was not stamm forbidden (or publicized) their have been statements made expecialy recently because now is the time expecially when this is taking place. In the past girls were modest and for her to touch other men (before marriage) would make them realise that they are loosing value in themselves. In the times of the Talmud, a girl even covered all up (almost like arabs) if she had bells on her shoes in order to draw attention from men, she was concidered a "zona" - aka prostitute.
 Bottom line is that all Rabbis forbid men and women touching, kissing or anything else outside of marriage. And even during marriage their are times that it is forbidden (ex- Nidda).

Where does it say in the Torah that the Jewish people, MUST follow the rulings of "fences" of the Rabbis when Rabbis never existed in those days?

 It says "you should follow them", it would be hard for me to bring you the exact quote, but ask a Rabbi, or ask around maybe someone has the reference for you. But stop always using the word "fences", many of these things always existed, but were written down much later, for different reasons.

[q_q_]

the term fence law is appropriate. There are lots.

there are also rabbinical mitzvot, but only 7 of them. (purim and chanukah are 2, washing hands for bread is another) http://www.askmoses.com/article/411,429/What-are-the-seven-rabbinic-mitzvot.html


most rabbis would point to
pirkei avot 1:1
1. Moses received the Torah from Sinai and transmitted it to Joshua; Joshua to the elders; the elders to the prophets; and the prophets handed it down to the men of the Great Assembly.  They said three things: Be deliberate in judgment, raise up many disciples, and make a fence around the Torah.

But you could then ask.. Where is fence really defined.. To be laws.. we have to obey. Where are they given permission to make such laws..
I am not sure..

There is of course the Sanhedrin,

and there is the authority of the beis din  - jewish court.

The tenach says follow the judges that exist in your time. The talmud says it refers to the sanhedrin, and this is prob clear from the pshat too.. Rabbi binyamin kahane mentioned it.. that it refers to the sanhedrin.   (other rabbis have at times pointed to this and looked at it as follow the sages, or follow the bet din or follow your local rabbi. But I don't think these interpretations have any evidence in tenach or gemara). The verse  is
Deut 17:11 "Act according to the law they teach you and the decisions they give you. Do not turn aside from what they tell you, to the right or to the left."
Fact is though, even those that maintain this refers to sanhedrin..
Will agree to the authority of rabbis to create fence laws, or new mitzvot.

It must be in gemara..

The RAMBAM bases his decisions in his code very close to the gemara , and he I think talks about following the bet din, in hilchot mamri..  Everybody that accepts the tradition accepts rabbinical authority.. so no question it's there. Otherwise there would be dissent..
 
If it's not written in gemara, then I  would that it is a living tradition, from around the time of hillel and shammai -and before.   Our tradition came down to us (again, see mishna avot / pirkei avot , 1:1 ) , down the generations, from G-d to joshua to elders to prophets to MOGA, to 5 pairs of rabbis ending with hillel and shammai.  At each generation being taught to the people.  And they lived it. 

There are of course examples in gemara, which makes it clear enough that the gemara teaches it.
You could look at that as a practical explanation and implementation of pirkei avot 1:1 , a living of that tradition.. lived for generations -before- hillel and shammai.. And I have mentioned how the generations go back to Moshe.

[q_q_]

What is MOGA?

an abbreviation I invented for "men of the great assembly". If you check pirkei avot 1:1  and the position I wrote MOGA then that's clear.  I have actually memorised the order..
G-d to joshua to elders to prophets to MOGA to 5 pairs ending in hillel and shammai.   Very good thing to memorise, and easy to memorise... Alot easier than pi to goodness knows how many dp.  So that's another way one might have known (by memory), I don't need to check pirkei avot 1:1 to see the list.  Every jew should memorise that little list IMO, it's fundamental


And also relevant as evidence for the truth of our tradition..

Why make the case tha our tradition is good because we passed it on for thousands of years.
We can say that Hillel and Shammai existed.. we all agree on that, we have the gemara where their disputes are recorded.  So the tradition existed then.
And from there, we can work our way back the genreations, to the origin of our tradition at sinai.
Hillel and Shammai would have known the pair of rabbis they learnt it from, and so on.. And the jewish nation was taught too. 

[q_q_]

Alot easier than pi to goodness knows how many dp.

What's that?

kids in school memorise pi to many decimal places to show off..

3.14159265358979323.....
For years I thought I knew it far until somebody told me I had got it wrong.. for years I thought it was ....8979232 , when it was ...8979323 .

some kids had memorised it to 100dp..

in many schools.. it was a thing geeky/technical people did for fun.. during long school days.

Yet memorising a short list, like from G-d to joshua e.t.c. is easy by comparison.

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

What is MOGA?

I have actually memorised the order..
G-d to joshua to elders to prophets to MOGA to 5 pairs ending in hillel and shammai.   Very good thing to memorise, and easy to memorise...

 Are you sure you memorised it well? Its Moshe recieved from G-d , and then to Yoshua .........

[q_q_]

What is MOGA?

I have actually memorised the order..
G-d to joshua to elders to prophets to MOGA to 5 pairs ending in hillel and shammai.   Very good thing to memorise, and easy to memorise...

 Are you sure you memorised it well? Its Moshe recieved from G-d , and then to Yoshua .........

err.. My typo..

I did have that originally! but changed --> to "to", and must have deleted it by accident.

 

[q_q_]

What is so significant by pi? Just because they made a Greek letter for it, it's so special? It seems rather Hellenistic to me.

to memorise it for the sake of it.. well, i'm not encouraging that..

pi is a special number, of course.  That's why there's a button on a calculator whose function is to produce that number.

I suppose since  many mathematical concepts come from greeks, would you say that memorising pythagorus's theorem is hellenistic.  It does have a practical use. The RAMBAM would have known it from memory!

mostly when I hear criticism of hellenization, it's in terms of their nudity.  Not mathematics.
 
not knowing much history, I must say I haven't used the term much.

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

I heard that King Solomon Alav Hashalom (as written in the Talmud) already knew what PI was. (If I find it I will post it sometime BH)

[q_q_]

I heard that King Solomon Alav Hashalom (as written in the Talmud) already knew what PI was. (If I find it I will post it sometime BH)

Whatever that means.  BTW, pi is an infinite number,  but its function was prob known in king solomon's time anyway..   

I have heard that king solomon knew the language of the animals.. So claims he knew pi (whatever is meant by that claim) are not be a big deal.  Maybe it meant he could calculate it like a calculator.. or a super-computer!

[Shamgar]

Excuse me for butting in here and in no way mean to be disrespectful. I can't speak for all forms of Christianity but as an Independant Baptist we are taught and teach that any type of sexual touching outside of marriage is a sin. At no time would I want the government to have the authority of enforcement. THAT scares me. That is what is going on in Iran and a lot of other ME countries.

I feel it is the duty of the parents and the religious leaders to teach thier children appropriately and with love and caring that outwieghs the negative influences that assaults them almost daily in our society.

I am not a touchy-feely kind of person. I work in the high-tech industry in a large city and quite often in business situations shake the hand of a woman. However, in a non-business situation, say at the beach and a young lady bounded up to me in a string bikini, I would never think of shaking her hand and would most likely be looking for an exit strategy.

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

say at the beach and a young lady bounded up to me in a string bikini, I would never think of shaking her hand and would most likely be looking for an exit strategy.

    Are you sure your biggest problem is that you are shaking hands with a lady (in regards to male-female issues)?

[Dr. Dan]

Excuse me for butting in here and in no way mean to be disrespectful. I can't speak for all forms of Christianity but as an Independant Baptist we are taught and teach that any type of sexual touching outside of marriage is a sin. At no time would I want the government to have the authority of enforcement. THAT scares me. That is what is going on in Iran and a lot of other ME countries.

I feel it is the duty of the parents and the religious leaders to teach thier children appropriately and with love and caring that outwieghs the negative influences that assaults them almost daily in our society.

I am not a touchy-feely kind of person. I work in the high-tech industry in a large city and quite often in business situations shake the hand of a woman. However, in a non-business situation, say at the beach and a young lady bounded up to me in a string bikini, I would never think of shaking her hand and would most likely be looking for an exit strategy.

I agree with you.

[Shamgar]

say at the beach and a young lady bounded up to me in a string bikini, I would never think of shaking her hand and would most likely be looking for an exit strategy.

    Are you sure your biggest problem is that you are shaking hands with a lady (in regards to male-female issues)?

As much as I love God and study the Bible, I still sin. Certainly I can sin by thought as well as by deed. That's why I would be beating a hasty retreat...

[q_q_]

But what is so important about pi? What makes it more important that any other random infinite number?

it is used in formulae to calculate the area or circumference of a circle.

that's what is special and unique about it, and why it has its own button on calculators

note- it's infinitely long after the decimal point..  though no doubt so are other numbers.

[Nic Brookes]

But what is so important about pi? What makes it more important that any other random infinite number?

Pi is one of THE most important numbers in mathematics, architecture, physics, science and technology.

Other important numbers are e (the exponential number) and i (the imaginary number). These numbers are fundamental to mathematics.